Pearson & Fleming : OUT

[sh1t_ref_again]

1 hour ago, pillred said:

And the majority of posters on here if they were really honest with themselves instead of constantly making excuses for our lack of any progress in the last 18 months, we are not the only club who have faced problems a lot have, lack of money has not stopped other clubs from doing well Luton being the best example I can think of and there are others, if NP is that good surely by now some progress would have been made, there is talk of some of our players going to Prem clubs for millions this summer so our playing staff can't be that bad. 

You have managed to name 1 club and there are a couple of others, but totally miss the point that there are lots more clubs with smaller budgets who are not successful. Therefore your point that because a tiny minority have been successful, means NP is failing does not stand up, guess the same applies to every other club with a bigger budget than Luton, Blackpool Coventry.  All 3 of those have been relegated built a team and come back up, so they would have a lower cost base, continuity of players and perhaps lucky with injuries etc. How many teams have been in the Championship longer than City and have a cost base anywhere near those teams?

 

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

4 hours ago, GrahamC said:

You really think Cooper is operating under the same financial constraints as Pearson?

Inheriting the likes of Djed Spence, James Garner?

Signing Cook from Bournemouth (how much do you think he’s on?), Sturridge from Stoke, Panzo from Dijon & a 4th player in January alone.

Honestly? ******* deluded.

It’s not all about money; it’s not all about wages.  It’s about getting the best from the players available to you.   Cooper became Forest manager on 21st September, a long time before the January transfer window, when Forest, with all the ‘inherited’ players, had taken 4 points from their first eight games.  From the start of Cooper’s tenure to Christmas they only lost one match, and that was to Fulham…

 

[Selred]

4 hours ago, GrahamC said:

You really think Cooper is operating under the same financial constraints as Pearson?

Inheriting the likes of Djed Spence, James Garner?

Signing Cook from Bournemouth (how much do you think he’s on?), Sturridge from Stoke, Panzo from Dijon & a 4th player in January alone.

Honestly? ******* deluded.

He never said he was. But Cooper is getting far more out of his players than Pearson.

Is Pearson getting the best out of Kalas, Han Noah, James? I'd argue no.

[Davefevs]

18 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

The only bit I don't agree with is keeping LJ. I might have made him coach and got someone in above him as manager but I don't think he had the right qualities to be in charge.

He was coach, head-coach. The manager was Mark Ashton.  You can already see the problem can’t you

My reason for saying in hindsight - was I’d have liked to see him operate without Ashton, and under stricter control.  Then we could truly see if he was good or not!

[exAtyeoMax]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

He was coach, head-coach. The manager was Mark Ashton.  You can already see the problem can’t you

My reason for saying in hindsight - was I’d have liked to see him operate without Ashton, and under stricter control.  Then we could truly see if he was good or not!

I know he was head coach but that term is used to mean both manager and head coach. I would restrict his influence to on-field matters (as Curtis Fleming and co are). 

MA wasn't manager in the real sense. He may have taken on that role but he wasn't employed as a manager.

[pillred]

14 minutes ago, sh1t_ref_again said:

You have managed to name 1 club and there are a couple of others, but totally miss the point that there are lots more clubs with smaller budgets who are not successful. Therefore your point that because a tiny minority have been successful, means NP is failing does not stand up, guess the same applies to every other club with a bigger budget than Luton, Blackpool Coventry.  All 3 of those have been relegated built a team and come back up, so they would have a lower cost base, continuity of players and perhaps lucky with injuries etc. How many teams have been in the Championship longer than City and have a cost base anywhere near those teams?

 

I just happen to think a club with the fanbase and backing we have had should have done a lot better over the years, it's been debated endlessly but when I see the likes of Bournemouth Huddersfield Burnley (I could go on ) being more successful than us it's frustrating and I know larger teams have in the past been relegated to League 1 after being in the Premier League but just once after over 40 years I would us to at least get it right once more and get promoted from the Championship before it's too late for a lot of people. 

[redsquirrel]

9 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

He was coach, head-coach. The manager was Mark Ashton.  You can already see the problem can’t you

My reason for saying in hindsight - was I’d have liked to see him operate without Ashton, and under stricter control.  Then we could truly see if he was good or not!

it was proved outright when at one point lee had to keep fielding the same team because of injuries. we did really well. then he fluffed up by chopping and changing as players came back. we all know he tried to play to other teams strengths instead of letting teams worry about ours. sadly this season,we dont have any reliable consistant strengths

[REDOXO]

We lost, we looked like ass at times and yet again could not defend corners. I was so steaming I went down the pub after watching a team that on the night could barely compete until the last few minutes. 
 

However this shit show is an inheritance from LJ MA AND SL/JL. We have players getting injured at massive levels and a midfield that I might get a game in on Saturday there are so many sick notes. 
 

The thought of sacking Pearson is insane, however shitty your Wednesday morning was. The team is going to look very different next season in my opinion. HNM is as good as out the door and looks it. Semenyo and/or Scott will be out as well. 
 

However we will have a couple coming through and some money to spend. 
 

There was never any doubt this was a three season rebuild from the crap we had under LJ and Holden so I’ll continue to suck it up 

[DirtySanchez]

We have blamed countless managers, blamed Mark Ashton, blamed individual players, blamed Lansdown. Now we are back to blaming NP - who has been hamstrung in buying in players and dealing with this covid period.

I think our recruitment has been awful for about 4-5 years now.

I want to see what NP can do in the Summer - he's been here just over a year with hardly any money to spend. Told he has to sell to buy. Let NP ship out the players on big wages. And I actually agree with the players he has left out, they have been poor. He has had to put square pegs into round holes. He has inherited a shyte squad and I hope he can put his own stamp on this through the Summer and next season.

You reds!

[GrahamC]

2 hours ago, IAmNick said:

Good post and lots of fair questions to raise. For the record I think your opinion is fairly popular at the moment, or at least not unpopular.

I'm going to clarify this by saying I agree that the defence is poor, and Pearson should have done, and be doing a better job than he is at coaching them. We've conceded far too many goals, there are no two ways about it. We've also lost too many games. It's been worse than I hoped overall, though broadly what I expected.

Personally I also put this down to two things though:

1. The defence hasn't been settled all year. We can get into whether that's the medical team or not, or why else it may have happened but those are other discussions - the fact is we've been unable to play the same back 3/4/5 for a string of games all year. All of our defensive signings from the summer have been injured for a fair portion (Baker, Tanner, Atkinson) - with Baker being our best defender for some and Tanner obviously covering a critical position squad wise. That has a massive impact on your defensive quality.

Of the back 3 last night one of them none of us had ever heard of in the summer, one of them I'd be surprised if anyone really thought they'd be starting, and one was "one for the (near) future" we hoped would get a few games in and around the team this year. If you said Cundy would be starting alongside Atkinson and a random 35 year old 6 months ago the overwhelming response would have been "...Uh oh, something must have gone really wrong".

 

2. I think Pearson thought we were safe, so broadly had two options in January (which is when our really awful defensive record really kicked into gear, compared to the just awful one before it ). 

A: Bring in a fair few loans to tide us over until the end of the season. Upsides: We finish higher in the table (weren't going to hit the playoffs). Downsides: Wages (already a struggle), interrupts / blocks pathway (loads of promising youngsters kicking around at the moment)

B: We're safe, stick with what we have and risk some changes to sort of make it work, and see what happens. Upsides: Can get experience into the youngsters, keep control of the finances. Downsides: More inconsistent, small risk of going down.

I think he went with B which is why we're seeing a lot more of the kids now, we're scoring pretty freely but also conceding pretty freely. We look like a team full of kids and players who've barely played together which is exactly what we are. I reckon if we really were in the shit and had to knuckle down and grind out a 1 - 0 we could, but maybe I'm delusional there! I keep thinking - what does that get us? We're safe, is it more valuable to play Danny Simpson for the rest of the year and get x more points, or Pring / Dasilva / whoever?

 

At the start of the year, and for the last few years I've seen many comments about whether the academy is working and why do we even bother with it (Just look at Brentford!), stuff like "Just play the kids, I don't care if we lose! Give them a go!" and so on - well now we are, and we're getting wild inconsistency all over the pitch and people complaining about it.

Overall as I said the defence should be better. It's been awful, and it's not just the players of course - some of that definitely lies at Pearson and the team he's assembled too. I can see some reasons and mitigations there though - but it HAS to be better next year, and so do we overall. If we're looking the same by Christmas, then I'd be done with Pearson barring some exceptional circumstance. I want to see top half, and ideally top 10.

This year I expected bottom third and was hoping for avoiding relegation and seeing our promising youngsters which is exactly what we've got. It's certainly not been pretty (or enjoyable) at times but it's what I expected, and could have been a lot worse. I like to think I'm not blind faith, but I'm also not anti-Pearson... yet.

 

Very fair summary.

[GrahamC]

1 hour ago, Selred said:

He never said he was. But Cooper is getting far more out of his players than Pearson.

Is Pearson getting the best out of Kalas, Han Noah, James? I'd argue no.

See, I think he is.

Kalas has done a pretty decent job in a poor defence with constant change around him & some team mates who frankly aren’t up to it. Made the 3rd highest number of blocks in the division.

HNM has had 2 poor performances recently but prior to that this season has seen his best form with us for me. Preston fans think he was the best midfielder at Deepdale this season.

James was good pre injury & also did ok at Blackburn.

It’s all just an opinion though, isn’t it?

[Selred]

6 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

See, I think he is.

Kalas has done a pretty decent job in a poor defence with constant change around him & some team mates who frankly aren’t up to it. Made the 3rd highest number of blocks in the division.

HNM has had 2 poor performances recently but prior to that this season has seen his best form with us for me. Preston fans think he was the best midfielder at Deepdale this season.

James was good pre injury & also did ok at Blackburn.

It’s all just an opinion though, isn’t it?

Look at our defence. RB (admittingly round peg, square hole), Promotion Winning CB, Promotion Winning CB, England U21 left back. Ships in 2x goals a match. That's not getting the best out of them.

 

We have a real purple patch with HNM, but gone massively off the boil. Has James been rushed back too?

 

We have some good Championship players on paper. I don't think the tactics are getting the best out the squad, but that's also because our squad is massively imbalanced. 

[The Original OTIB]

2 hours ago, headhunter said:

Here, here!!

Where, where?

[054123]

2 hours ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

Really good post- well said, well written.

Another point I've been considering. Dasilva was one of the players that NP pretty much overlooked and everyone thought he was gone- one of 'the not up for it' brigade. Due to injuries- NP had no choice but to play him and low and behold- he's been one of our better defenders.

When NP feels a player has not performed or hasn't bought in to his 'my way or the highway' philosophy then he really really isnt very pleasant. Everyone then loves it because it's apparently what we need and a breath of fresh air, players have been stealing a living for too long etc. 

I think his management skills are outdated and destructive on and off the pitch. That is not to say he hasn't done some good or that he had anything other than a poison chalice. But he's had long enough and I'd like to see him leave at the end of this season.

I’m still willling to give Pearson the summer and then the first couple of months but I can understand how with the end of the season in sight, the performances are pushing people to their own limit.

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

2 hours ago, 054123 said:

I’m still willling to give Pearson the summer and then the first couple of months but I can understand how with the end of the season in sight, the performances are pushing people to their own limit.

So if he spends whatever money is available and buys players that are of a similar standard to those he has brought in so far and 8 weeks into the season we get a new man in - we've lost another season and the budget. If the season ends in a whimper with some more really poor performances then he should go and I dont think it will be a difficult decision for SL to make other than the financial consequences.

[Ivorguy]

We are where we are, and I don’t like it.

Reconciled to League 1 in next three seasons, but hopefully with NP still here.

This is a major major blip in our history and I can’t see anyone better than NP to solve it over time

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, Ivorguy said:

We are where we are, and I don’t like it.

Reconciled to League 1 in next three seasons, but hopefully with NP still here.

This is a major major blip in our history and I can’t see anyone better than NP to solve it over time

I’m backing Pearson but if he was to relegate us that would be too much.  Resources are scarce, but we should be good enough to not go down.

[Ivorguy]

Just now, Davefevs said:

I’m backing Pearson but if he was to relegate us that would be too much.  Resources are scarce, but we should be good enough to not go down.

Hope you are right but I fear we shall be relegated in next few years.  Certainly in my opinion under present ownership no chance of promotion.

our player policy will again be shown to fail this summer as we sell our young talented and improving players to be replaced by has beens and a new younger talented tranche from Academy

[AppyDAZE]

2 hours ago, The Original OTIB said:

Where, where?

There there

[The Original OTIB]

1 minute ago, AppyDAZE said:

There there

Hear, hear ...

[AppyDAZE]

Just now, The Original OTIB said:

Hear, hear ...

Well well

Talk Talk

[Mr Popodopolous]

23 minutes ago, Ivorguy said:

Hope you are right but I fear we shall be relegated in next few years.  Certainly in my opinion under present ownership no chance of promotion.

our player policy will again be shown to fail this summer as we sell our young talented and improving players to be replaced by has beens and a new younger talented tranche from Academy

How many do you think we will need to sell? By my maths it's one of these 3 at most...and hopefully if we can move on some players who have run out of road- Moore, Bakinson, Palmer, Wells- this can help.

We don't actually need to sell 3/3 I wouldn't have thought, if we do then a good chunk of the cash- once FFP cleared, and once maybe we get creative with shifting fringe players, it should be given to NP- sensible not extravagant, but maybe to move a little bit forward with the rebuild in 2022 instead of 2023.

Should add- I expect that to take place in the Championship, not League One. We shouldn't go down.

Edited March 16, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

21 minutes ago, Ivorguy said:

our player policy will again be shown to fail this summer as we sell our young talented and improving players to be replaced by has beens and a new younger talented tranche from Academy

Yep, time will tell.  The way to get out of our financial mess would seem to be to sell one or more of the young’uns, but it would only be a short term fix.  We need to sell the high earners, the ones who came for a fee and are costing us a chunk in amortisation each year.

Hypothetically, we are better selling Kalas for £5m in the summer rather than Semenyo for £10m.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Just now, Davefevs said:

Yep, time will tell.  The way to get out of our financial mess would seem to be to sell one or more of the young’uns, but it would only be a short term fix.  We need to sell the high earners, the ones who came for a fee and are costing us a chunk in amortisation each year.

Hypothetically, we are better selling Kalas for £5m in the summer rather than Semenyo for £10m.

If was capped at one, I think we could absorb it on and off the pitch...more than one and it's heading back to the drawing board IMO.

[Davefevs]

6 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Yep, time will tell.  The way to get out of our financial mess would seem to be to sell one or more of the young’uns, but it would only be a short term fix.  We need to sell the high earners, the ones who came for a fee and are costing us a chunk in amortisation each year.

Hypothetically, we are better selling Kalas for £5m in the summer rather than Semenyo for £10m.

@billywedlocksimilar lines to your post on another thread.

[Guest]

We have sold some great players in the past and given away a few that we cant afford to keep. I see no reason for this to change anytime soon.

Cant see any offers being rejected for anyone as the plan to re-build is rolled out again to quell the natives.

Trouble is we dont seem capable of getting out of the footings with any re-build plan.

[054123]

2 hours ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

So if he spends whatever money is available and buys players that are of a similar standard to those he has brought in so far and 8 weeks into the season we get a new man in - we've lost another season and the budget. If the season ends in a whimper with some more really poor performances then he should go and I dont think it will be a difficult decision for SL to make other than the financial consequences.

That’s fair enough.

For me last summer was not about rebuilding but dismantling as Steve was fully aware of the impending financial problems that had been created. 

This summer is an opportunity to rebuild. However what do we know. Steve might have completely pulled in the purse strings and Pearson charged with nothing but essentially cutting costs.

Its all about parameters. Yours are slightly shorter than mine.

For what it’s worth I don’t think Tanner or Atkinson were bad signings.

King, Simpson we’re frees I think.

Edited March 16, 2022 by 054123

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 hours ago, gl2 said:

We have sold some great players in the past and given away a few that we cant afford to keep. I see no reason for this to change anytime soon.

Cant see any offers being rejected for anyone as the plan to re-build is rolled out again to quell the natives.

Trouble is we dont seem capable of getting out of the footings with any re-build plan.

The rebuild thing what with FFP is totally legitimate though, it's an ongoing process- as Dave has pointed out a club cost base of £60m is quite something! If we've shaved off £12m that's great but it still doesn't totally fix the issue.

In an ideal world we will have costs and revenue maybe not perfectly but we'll enough aligned that selling players isn't as essential just to stand still in an FFP context.

Lots out of contract summer 2023, we might have to tough things out in 2022/23 and sell one of Massengo, Scott, Semenyo as part of that but better days could lie ahead...in summer 2023 if we're still a Championship club.

It's a bit of a tanker to turn around, that cost base.

Edited March 16, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

1 hour ago, 054123 said:

That’s fair enough.

For me last summer was not about rebuilding but dismantling as Steve was fully aware of the impending financial problems that had been created. 

This summer is an opportunity to rebuild. However what do we know. Steve might have completely pulled in the purse strings and Pearson charged with nothing but essentially cutting costs.

Its all about parameters. Yours are slightly shorter than mine.

For what it’s worth I don’t think Tanner or Atkinson were bad signings.

King, Simpson we’re frees I think.

I dont think there's any such thing as a Free- just less expensive but the likes of King, James and Simpson are still a big financial outlay.

I genuinely believe that the Lansdown's will be considering their options right now with a view to a change at the end of the season if performances dont improve let alone results.

[054123]

16 minutes ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

I dont think there's any such thing as a Free- just less expensive but the likes of King, James and Simpson are still a big financial outlay.

I genuinely believe that the Lansdown's will be considering their options right now with a view to a change at the end of the season if performances dont improve let alone results.

We’ll find our soon enough.

Either this all gets better or Nigel will be gone by the Autumn.