Pearson & Fleming : OUT

[Waconda]

29 minutes ago, KegCity said:

What were you expecting for the season? A lot of people were predicting 17th/18th which is about where we are.

The West Brom performance.

Correct players in solid formation, well drilled, organised and motivated.

Easily a mid table side right there.

Without Kalas, Baker, Scott, Semenyo and Williams also.

Should be in amongst the middle 8 teams not the bottom 8.

Not expecting miracles but mid table should have been achievable. Just my opinion.

Therefore not a disaster but underachieving with the squad available, again just my opinion and fully respect that others will have a different one. 

[Rich]

4 minutes ago, Waconda said:

The West Brom performance.

Correct players in solid formation, well drilled, organised and motivated.

Easily a mid table side right there.

Without Kalas, Baker, Scott, Semenyo and Williams also.

Should be in amongst the middle 8 teams not the bottom 8.

Not expecting miracles but mid table should have been achievable. Just my opinion.

Therefore not a disaster but underachieving with the squad available, again just my opinion and fully respect that others will have a different one. 

I agree, that team should relate to a mid table position. Here's a question though, how often have we been able to field that team, or any other equivalent team on a regular basis? I'm sure there's a stato out there than can tell us when we've actually been able to field the same team for more than two matches and, if we have, was it a strong enough team to be mid table.

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 hours ago, Waconda said:

The West Brom performance.

Correct players in solid formation, well drilled, organised and motivated.

Easily a mid table side right there.

Without Kalas, Baker, Scott, Semenyo and Williams also.

Should be in amongst the middle 8 teams not the bottom 8.

Not expecting miracles but mid table should have been achievable. Just my opinion.

Therefore not a disaster but underachieving with the squad available, again just my opinion and fully respect that others will have a different one. 

Were we not missing Tanner too?

[The Bard]

5 hours ago, Tafkarmlf said:

The NP revisionism over the last few pages is strange reading. 

Whoever took charge post DH would have been in exactly the same boat in terms of cost cutting etc. Millen and Mcinnes had to do it and we were crap, they got sacked. 

At the moment on field there's a whole host of problems on pitch, yet NP is absolved of this which is odd and to me at least like watching the S'OD car crash all over again to the point its giving me ptsd. 

When we're good, see Preston we're immense but we've been hammered since got lucky at Blackburn. WBA was better but still showed exactly why we are struggling on field. And after a year none of that's really changed 

Tactically there's all kinds of issues Sam Bell/ Weimann at right wingback back and whatever else, could be a long list. 

Those who want NP gone have a valid view, given poor league form, poor performances and tactical incrediluity. 

NP hasnt shown enough to some or anything to others and at a year plus the excuses are wearing thin when there's no discernable change 

Fwiw and im aware I'm the outlier I think were ok for FFP and have said so many times. We cant use that as a catch all to prevent change if the current situation if to some it is simply not working. 

Those calling for NP to go aren't expecting miracle performances or promotion, what they were expecting is a football team that is consistent and actually doesn't get routinely outclassed. 

The next game we've no idea what team will show up up, it's exciting but at the same time watching us get battered all game does no one any favours. 

It's something to consider and each person will have their different reasons to why they think NP should go. 

 

 

Mcinnes and Millen both got sacked because we were in imminent danger of relegation.

We're not now despite your efforts to convince people otherwise.

You're the one with the NP revisionism, unless of course you were expecting a promotion challenge??

[Davefevs]

7 hours ago, Tafkarmlf said:

The NP revisionism over the last few pages is strange reading. 

Whoever took charge post DH would have been in exactly the same boat in terms of cost cutting etc. Millen and Mcinnes had to do it and we were crap, they got sacked.

Can’t really comment on Millen, wasn’t following City as closely back then. My memory was that it was O’Driscoll who did the main mopping up of McInnes and Millen (and before them too).  In McInnes’s defence he had Mark Ashton (in consultant mode) to put up with!!!

At the moment on field there's a whole host of problems on pitch, yet NP is absolved of this which is odd and to me at least like watching the S'OD car crash all over again to the point its giving me ptsd.

I don’t think he’s absolved at all, just some of don’t think he’s the sole reason for “everything” that’s wrong.  some of us think there are mitigating circumstances.  Pearson like O’Driscoll is setting firm foundations.  In Cotterill and Johnson’s cases, they benefited from O’Driscoll.  O’Driscoll got us relegated from the Championship.  Pearson has set about mending Bristol City and kept us in the second tier.  I’d argue there might be some revisionism of pre-Pearson times???

When we're good, see Preston we're immense but we've been hammered since got lucky at Blackburn. WBA was better but still showed exactly why we are struggling on field. And after a year none of that's really changed

yep, I posted elsewhere this week, what is the real Bristol City / slim-shady.  West Brom (h) isn’t it, that was a culmination of most / all players playing pretty well in the same game.  That won’t happen every week.  Just like West Brom (a) won’t either.  @Wacondaagreed with my post about this.  Trying gauge the true middling Bristol City hasn’t been easy.

Tactically there's all kinds of issues Sam Bell/ Weimann at right wingback back and whatever else, could be a long list.

Previous managers have compromised players in unnatural positions too.  Sometimes you sacrifice one player for the benefit of the other ten.  Team game.  Tommy Rowe LCB, Zak Vyner DM under Holden.  Joe Bryan RB under Johnson.  The list goes on.  Shit happens.  It feels like Pearson is the only Bristol City manager to ever do this.

Who’s the best (one of them anyway) RWB in league one?  Wes Burns, a young centre forward at the time, who got played at RWB by Cotterill in 13/14.

Those who want NP gone have a valid view, given poor league form, poor performances and tactical incrediluity.

of course they have a right to a view, just like those of us who want him to stay have a view too.  Validity of view might not be the right term, probably entitlement to a view feels more apt to me.  The point of a forum is to debate it.  Sometimes posters will try to change peoples views with their responses, sometimes posters will just want to put the other side of the argument without seeking to influence.  

NP hasnt shown enough to some or anything to others and at a year plus the excuses are wearing thin when there's no discernable change

he’s shown plenty to me, I see lots changing.  But hey, if his time here is wearing thin for you, feel free to hold that view.  I’m still enjoying it hugely.

Fwiw and im aware I'm the outlier I think were ok for FFP and have said so many times. We cant use that as a catch all to prevent change if the current situation if to some it is simply not working.

we aren’t safe from FFP, work still to do…but I’m confident we will do that work over the next 2 windows and will avoid points deduction.  As it stands, our squad will be weaker next season, as we need to lose players to comply.  Nobody is using it as a catch-all, but it is one of the main factors, if not THE main one impacting plans.

Those calling for NP to go aren't expecting miracle performances or promotion, what they were expecting is a football team that is consistent and actually doesn't get routinely outclassed.

we have differing expectations.  Consistency is the one thing I have little to no expectation of!  My view is that we aren’t routinely outclassed either.

The next game we've no idea what team will show up up, it's exciting but at the same time watching us get battered all game does no one any favours.

Fortunately we’ve rarely (if at all) been battered all game this season.

It's something to consider and each person will have their different reasons to why they think NP should go. 

And many of us will have equally compelling reasons why he should stay.

 

Comments above

 

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

36 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Comments above

 

I'd agree with the comparison between S'OD and Pearson.

Sean had a pretty limited budget, had to mend and make do after inheriting a bloated largely useless squad but without the benefit of  exciting academy products and was sacked when results weren't good enough but he's never really been recognised for his off pitch work- on it it was as turgid as NP - more so even. He lasted 11 months.

However, his legacy was clearing up a previous mess just as NP has been doing ....however he also left us with some of his signings- Jet, Fielding, Flint, Williams, Pack and Waggy- all either pretty good or almost Legend status ( Jet & Flint deffo and Pack close for me). We sold Flint and Pack for £10 million and they cost £300,000

If NP left now, the comparison ends in that I don't think , imo, he's brought anyone in that will have the same long term impact on and off the field.

[Davefevs]

23 minutes ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

I'd agree with the comparison between S'OD and Pearson.

Sean had a pretty limited budget, had to mend and make do after inheriting a bloated largely useless squad but without the benefit of  exciting academy products and was sacked when results weren't good enough but he's never really been recognised for his off pitch work- on it it was as turgid as NP - more so even. He lasted 11 months.

However, his legacy was clearing up a previous mess just as NP has been doing ....however he also left us with some of his signings- Jet, Fielding, Flint, Williams, Pack and Waggy- all either pretty good or almost Legend status ( Jet & Flint deffo and Pack close for me). We sold Flint and Pack for £10 million and they cost £300,000

If NP left now, the comparison ends in that I don't think , imo, he's brought anyone in that will have the same long term impact on and off the field.

I guess the big question is were Fielding, Flint, Williams and Pack legends at the time O’Driscoll was sacked?  Nope.  Fielding wasn’t even in the team.  Jet was a “legend”, but was too expensive to keep once Ipswich stopped paying half his £20k p.w.  Waggy was “Mr 6/7 out of 10” (I liked him).  Pearson has brought Scott and Pring through, improved Semenyo by playing him central, etc.  Atkinson starting to show early season form, Tanner we will need to wait and see. I wouldn’t dismiss what Pearson has done so far, not least when comparing like for like with SOD a year into role.  Pearson has kept us in the Championship too.  I could quite happily make a case for Pearson doing better than O’Driscoll, but all about opinions.

[BS4 on Tour...]

On 19/03/2022 at 11:55, DaveF said:

Absolutely zero chance we could persuade Farke to come here.

What makes you say that? We are an established Championship club, we play in a fabulous City, as do Norwich - we undoubtedly pay competitive managerial salaries, we have a dedicated, committed Bristolian owner who has demonstrated loyalty to his football club managers, we have a fantastic stadium, better than Norwich’s home - given all that, why couldn’t we attract Farke? However, we don’t currently have a Head Coach/Manager vacancy - so it’s all pretty irrelevant anyway

[DaveF]

22 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

What makes you say that? We are an established Championship club, we play in a fabulous City, as do Norwich - we undoubtedly pay competitive managerial salaries, we have a dedicated, committed Bristolian owner who has demonstrated loyalty to his football club managers, we have a fantastic stadium, better than Norwich’s home - given all that, why couldn’t we attract Farke? However, we don’t currently have a Head Coach/Manager vacancy - so it’s all pretty irrelevant anyway

I think the job he did at Norwich has elevated him reputation beyond us.

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

I guess the big question is were Fielding, Flint, Williams and Pack legends at the time O’Driscoll was sacked?  Nope.  Fielding wasn’t even in the team.  Jet was a “legend”, but was too expensive to keep once Ipswich stopped paying half his £20k p.w.  Waggy was “Mr 6/7 out of 10” (I liked him).  Pearson has brought Scott and Pring through, improved Semenyo by playing him central, etc.  Atkinson starting to show early season form, Tanner we will need to wait and see. I wouldn’t dismiss what Pearson has done so far, not least when comparing like for like with SOD a year into role.  Pearson has kept us in the Championship too.  I could quite happily make a case for Pearson doing better than O’Driscoll, but all about opinions.

I definitely didn't say Fielding and Williams were legends! I said Jet and Flint with Pack  being almost legends. If you quote me please do so as stated, Dave and not a spin! Fielding was in the team briefly but dropped after he looked comical on his debut whilst Flint was also dropped and universally branded as useless until he wasn't.

My point was not about what they were like when in S'ODs team but that his cheap signings were his legacy and one which NP would not have should he leave.

As for bringing through our long term existing youth- that CANNOT be down to Nige- it's a club effort from whoever scouted them as kids and then coached them, loaned them, nurtured them to a position where they could be considered by Nige as ready. Unless, of course, you believe that they wouldn't have achieved success without NP which I'd disagree with. I think that injuries have also forced some of these players into a position where there is no choice but to play them. 

[Davefevs]

36 minutes ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

I definitely didn't say Fielding and Williams were legends! I said Jet and Flint with Pack  being almost legends. If you quote me please do so as stated, Dave and not a spin! Fielding was in the team briefly but dropped after he looked comical on his debut whilst Flint was also dropped and universally branded as useless until he wasn't.

My point was not about what they were like when in S'ODs team but that his cheap signings were his legacy and one which NP would not have should he leave.

As for bringing through our long term existing youth- that CANNOT be down to Nige- it's a club effort from whoever scouted them as kids and then coached them, loaned them, nurtured them to a position where they could be considered by Nige as ready. Unless, of course, you believe that they wouldn't have achieved success without NP which I'd disagree with. I think that injuries have also forced some of these players into a position where there is no choice but to play them. 

Misread your post

FWIW I think we owe SOD a lot.  I think we will owe Pearson a lot too…when we look back.

 

[Waconda]

7 hours ago, DaveF said:

I think the job he did at Norwich has elevated him reputation beyond us.

Pearson also once got a team into the Premier league and he came here !

[BS4 on Tour...]

57 minutes ago, Waconda said:

Pearson also once got a team into the Premier league and he came here !

So did Danny Wilson - and he came here too! He also managed another premier league club before he came to BS3

[The Bard]

On 24/03/2022 at 07:06, Waconda said:

He is though under performing.

He isn't underperforming.

[Waconda]

1 hour ago, The Bard said:

He isn't underperforming.

Matches - 55

Wins - 14

Draws - 11

Loses - 30

Points per game - 0.96

My opinion is he is under performing with the squad of players he has had available.

 

[Phileas Fogg]

5 minutes ago, Waconda said:

Matches - 55

Wins - 14

Draws - 11

Loses - 30

Points per game - 0.96

My opinion is he is under performing with the squad of players he has had available.

 

I only really count this season - P39, W12, D8, L19

PPG - 1.12

The reason I don't really count last season is because it really wasn't his squad, we had terrible form, morale and his only remit was to keep us up which he did.

The comparative PPG still isn't great, but it's clearly an improvement. 

Also I think stats alone don't account for the whole context - our performances are improving (albeit still inconsistent). He's readily playing young players and there's visible improvement. All 3 of Massengo, Semenyo and Scott are potentially big money assets (obviously I'd rather they stay, but this is an important consideration given our finances). 

There's been relatively no danger of relegation for weeks. 

I think the general consensus on here was for us to survive this season - a bonus if we'd blood some young players. I appreciate that doesn't apply to everyone, but if that was the general consensus barometer for success we've safely achieved that and then some.

I'll definitely be more critical next season as by then he'll have been here 18 months and had a few windows - I'm expecting comfortable mid table next season but far closer to the top half than relegation points wise. If we lose one or more of Scott, Massengo or Semenyo though, the club need to allow him to reinvest within reason otherwise there's no chance of progression.

I have been pretty impressed with Pearson's signings. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on King and Simpson who I believe were bought in as lieutenants and Pearson men. I think all of Atkinson, James and Tanner have looked really good all things considered. That's reassuring when you factor in that our recruitment arm is still clearly a work in progress. 

[DaveF]

3 hours ago, Waconda said:

Pearson also once got a team into the Premier league and he came here !

That was quite a while ago and his stock and decreased somewhat since then. Maybe we can get Farke in 7 years time...

[Dr Balls]

1 hour ago, DaveF said:

That was quite a while ago and his stock and decreased somewhat since then. Maybe we can get Farke in 7 years time...

NP’s stock was good enough for Watford to appoint him in the Premier League, which IIRC was his last post before coming here. And if they had kept him for the last 2 matches of the season they might have stayed up, as he had turned around their season to that point.

[IAmNick]

2 hours ago, Waconda said:

Matches - 55

Wins - 14

Draws - 11

Loses - 30

Points per game - 0.96

My opinion is he is under performing with the squad of players he has had available.

 

So now you like stats after all?

Funny old game isn't it

[Waconda]

1 minute ago, IAmNick said:

So now you like stats after all?

Funny old game isn't it

Yep. The only stats that count right here.

[IAmNick]

21 minutes ago, Waconda said:

Yep. The only stats that count right here.

I think we both know that's not true without any context behind them which is what people are trying to provide.

If Fulham finished 3rd, and Luton 4th, are you saying the Fulham board / fans would be feeling happier as they have more ppg? I think not.

Stats are very useful, but rarely in isolation.

[Waconda]

46 minutes ago, IAmNick said:

I think we both know that's not true without any context behind them which is what people are trying to provide.

If Fulham finished 3rd, and Luton 4th, are you saying the Fulham board / fans would be feeling happier as they have more ppg? I think not.

Stats are very useful, but rarely in isolation.

Yep agree, stats are limited in the actual "real life" of professional team sports.

Far too many variables when dealing with humans that cannot being replicated on a spreadsheet.

In isolation our win/loss stats would imply our manager is failing.

[DaveF]

1 hour ago, Dr Balls said:

NP’s stock was good enough for Watford to appoint him in the Premier League, which IIRC was his last post before coming here. And if they had kept him for the last 2 matches of the season they might have stayed up, as he had turned around their season to that point.

You're right. Announce Farke.

[BS4 on Tour...]

On 24/03/2022 at 11:40, Tafkarmlf said:

When we're good, see Preston we're immense but we've been hammered since ...

In which game vs Preston were we ‘immense’ this season? The 0-0 game at home or the 2-2 draw away when we conceded a 95th minute equaliser?!

[Waconda]

Man's greatest achievements in life were as an imaginary football manager | The Daily Mash

 

[DaveF]

34 minutes ago, Waconda said:

Man's greatest achievements in life were as an imaginary football manager | The Daily Mash

 

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

What more do we need to witness?

Nige has had his time and done the best he is is capable of in very difficult circumstances. It's not all bad but I just cant see how a manager with one of the worst records in living memory should be given another season to prove what many of us already believe- that he's no longer the right man to take us forward.

This season's record of 22 losses 8 draws and 12 wins is more than  poor. 4th worst GD in the division and hasn't won 2 games in a row since he arrived 14 months ago and 4 clean sheets in 41 games.

 

 

[Swede]

On 15/03/2022 at 22:22, Fordy62 said:

We all agreed we’d be happy if we avoided relegation. We all agreed we’d be even happier if we could do so and blood some youngsters.

When did things change?

Absolutely spot on. We were the worst team in the league last season and heading for oblivion this season thanks in no small part to Ashton. We've stayed above the relegation zone this season and with Pearson at the helm we are by and large more competitive. There will be blips and yesterday's match was another. 

Staying in this league was vital whilst he tries to rebuild the squad with next to no money.

Am I cheesed off at only drawing with the bottom team with ten men? Well of course I am but we all have to just suck it up.

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

15 minutes ago, billywedlock said:

In the past this level of squad got us relegated. A huge success. NP is doing a miracle. 

So , who is the right man in your view ? 

Turning wine into water is a different type of miracle.

Why is it that whenever someone is not happy with Nigel they have to say who should replace them? And there will never be an appointment which is 100% supported.

Let me ask you the exact same question- you are not happy with this squad so who should replace them ? Players with more ability? Players who give everything they've got? 

It's a pointless conversation as neither you nor I have any idea as to who may be available or what funds are available and we certainly don't have an ability to make appointments or signings.

If you feel, for example, that Vyner is not good enough then that's fine but I wouldn't expect you to identify who should replace him from another club. Your point about any players is exactly my point about the Manager.

[BCFC Rich]

56 minutes ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

Turning wine into water is a different type of miracle.

Why is it that whenever someone is not happy with Nigel they have to say who should replace them? And there will never be an appointment which is 100% supported.

Let me ask you the exact same question- you are not happy with this squad so who should replace them ? Players with more ability? Players who give everything they've got? 

It's a pointless conversation as neither you nor I have any idea as to who may be available or what funds are available and we certainly don't have an ability to make appointments or signings.

If you feel, for example, that Vyner is not good enough then that's fine but I wouldn't expect you to identify who should replace him from another club. Your point about any players is exactly my point about the Manager.

The question isn't really about who do you want/who do you think is should come in, the question is being asked to say - what makes you think things will be better? - The point is, you are looking for a miracle appointment (your word)- someone who isn't wanted by anyone better than us, who will have next to no resources (less than NP after pay off), who may well have a smaller squad, who may not be able to sign anyone at all,  and who will be appointed by SL - who does not have the best record! -  and even if you could appoint any manager in the world on no wage at all  -the job is incredibly tough right now, we are in a shit position. 

What do you think this change is going to realistically, or even magically achieve? What is the expectation you have for next season? 

Mid-table? - We are 12 points off mid-table now, 4 wins. Do you feel it's impossible the NP would get four more wins next season? Do you feel that there haven't been 4 games we were unlucky not to win this season? 

Top half? - I'd say we are moving further into miracle territory and we would at least need a bigger squad so we could rotate a bit, without loosing too many key players and that looks very unlikely. 

Play-off or higher? I'd say if this is your expectation you have an answer as to why you're actually so frustrated this season, we are no where near that level and do not have the resources to bring that kind of quality in. 

In terms of what NP has done

- as @Fordy62 points out. Achieved most peoples expectations at the start of the season

- and met the criteria of blooding youngsters.

- Taken a forward line that was so maleigned it had threads dedicated to each member of it saying how they were not good enough, and turned it into a potent force.

- Taken Weimann, who 'just runs around a lot', who was available for free to other clubs, resigned him on less wages and got him to 4th top soccer in the league (despite league position and lack on penalties).

- Got AS, 'who will never be a striker', who 'can't score' in to a goalscoring threat and assist maker, who is being talked about as a £5-20m player.

- With basically the same squad as the end of last season generated millions in player value (something we desperately need) - Scott, AS, HNM, Pring etc.

- He has had to cope for most of the season without a right back (and we know he probably actually wants to play 4 at the back). 

I would also say defensively we are showing signs of improvement especially defending in the box and from set pieces (where we look better at both ends of the pitch. The Posh goal was the only time in last couple of games - bournemouth fans were even saying how they could get a sniff from any of their many corners. Todays result was frustrating and we should/could have done better. But apart from the goal all their chances were long shots and despite league position they have scored 9 goals in their last 6 games - all against teams higher placed than us and including games against teams in 2nd and 5th place.