Pearson & Fleming : OUT

[BigAl&Toby]

3 hours ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

It's now over 8 months since Nige took on the "project" . According to many, the problem is entirely with the squad and not the coaching. I disagree.  Nigel has made it very clear what he wants from the players and has very publicly stated that he'll get rid of those who dont buy into what he's trying to do .... which seems like just about everyone. 

Thoughts anyone? 

Didn’t watch or listen to it although yesterday I was contemplating another trip to Sheffield.

Instead I planted some tulips, checked in on my autumn sown broad beans, onions and garlic, walked the dogs and made a trip to Thornbury to get a double glazed unit for the bespoke potting shed I’m planning. All in all a ******* good day.

Nigel needs to stay. We’re now reaping what we’ve sown over the past 20 years. When we had some potential and impetus we ****** up and went backwards.

Then as a statement of intent and off the back of Tammy and some profit on player sales Big Steve got the chequebook out. And spunked millions up the wall.

We have KP who can shag anyone’s wife he’s loved so much. And **** me he looked good in that suit at Ashton Court.

We have little Jay who has a song about him that everyone loves to sing along to. Even when the ball sails over his head… 

And we have Captain Kallas and his ugly 4x4 Lamborghini. A rough, tough looking machine that must have cost a pretty penny. Kallas that is not his 4x4…..

Meanwhile Steve, Maggie and Jon are watching freehold values in BS3 increase daily. The Bears lose. The Robins lose. Like he gives a Flying Fox….

We need an ugly, uncompromising bastard to get us out of this Pula of shit.

I wonder though if the Lansdown Clan want that. Or if they’ll be content to let Nige wither on the vine.

So ship out the shit Nigel, play those like Scott, Benayrous, HNM and Williams who want to play and put the likes of Palmer et al to shame.

If we go down then we go down. Fighting. And the rest can leave and we go again. To quote Little Lee…..

[Hampshire reds]

having been to the game what a shambles we are. great to see young players but where the hell is kasey. should be in the squad especially with injuries. paying him good money for doing nothing. Lansdown get out your arm chair and make  a decision on your manager. also what is the project. go back to div one. 

[054123]

Just now, Hampshire reds said:

having been to the game what a shambles we are. great to see young players but where the hell is kasey. should be in the squad especially with injuries. paying him good money for doing nothing. Lansdown get out your arm chair and make  a decision on your manager. also what is the project. go back to div one. 

No FFP ramifications in league 1 (I think) seeing as the model of the previous 3 years will see us lose 50m in consecutive seasons.

Just saying

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

20 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 

But the objective is to slowly improve.  But that won’t be a straight line.

 

I understand the need to rebuild and re-set . I knew that any improvement would not be linear given the depth of our squad and legacy issues.

I listen to NP's interviews and apart from the occasional almost spat-like sequence with an interviewer, I find him to talk more sense than several of his predecessors.

I made the point last season whilst he was caretaker that ,imo, he shouldn't be given the job until the very end of the season and I was definitely a minority voice. His record was W L L W D L L L D D L L L so 2 wins 3 draws and 9 losses. And a three year contract.

I don't think it could have got any worse so this season was always more likely to be an improvement This season he's played 23 matches and W7  D5 and L 11.  In the last 12 matches ( half the matches played) he has lost 7. This is where I have the problem about green shoots/improvement/right direction etc. I just dont see it when combined with performances which have been genuinely very poor and we've been incredibly fortunate not to have had a pasting from various teams courtesy of their bad finishing and not our resolute defending.

The record after over 8 months since Nige took over is Played 37 Lost 20 Drawn 8 and Won9 . If our performances showed that the players we have are giving their all for the shirt, team and Manager then I'd be less scathing. But the reality is that good moments of football are not in anything other than fleetingly brief periods and to my eyes  it's looking worse not better with relegation being a genuinely possible outcome. For this reason, I believe that unless there is an upturn in both points and performances then SL should cut his losses in December and bring in a new coach for the January window with the sole objective/brief to keep us in this division.

I think this is a reasoned argument albeit an unpopular one and not one that shrieks "Agenda" except to the many who perhaps dont have such a reasoned response as yourself. On that note thanks for you courteous, comprehensive and understandable reply.

[Tonks55]

If the question is ‘Pearson doing a good, even satisfactory , job?’ then I don’t think too many supporters would answer ‘Yes’.

If the question is ‘Should Pearson be replaced?’, then I don’t think as many would also say ‘Yes’. My opinion is ‘No’. Why? Because I don’t think the squad of players he has at his disposal are good enough for this division. Therefore I don’t believe any manager could bring about a change in fortune with the squad as it is.

If Pearson is given the funds to significantly strengthen the squad in the January window, but he still fails to bring about an improvement then by all means ‘sack him’. If he is not given the funds and the squad remains the same then it would not be fair to sack him (he might resign however!).

Sadly I see a parallel with 1980, when we failed to integrate younger players, preferring to rely on more experienced players (on long expensive contracts), which led to our bankruptcy, in 1982.  The exit of the Ashton Gate 8 meant that our youngsters had to ‘step up to the plate’ and perform, although if I remember correctly it still took a season or two, even flirting with going out of the league, before the bounce-back came.

In that spell, there will have been plenty of young players that had the talent to have made it to the top but did not have the character to thrive in a struggling team, and dropped out of football completely. This is the parallel that I fear – that many of the current, talented yet exposed young players will not make it as things stand, whereas in a different situation might go on to be top players.

The manager during our revival was Terry Cooper, who no doubt faced calls for his resignation on the downslide, but in hindsight was one of our best managers in the last 50 years!

So my opinion (and that is what it is!) is that Pearson should be given the time and funds to stabilise the teams performances, so that we can selectively develop the young talent we have (this also includes weeding out the young talent that may not have the mentality to survive). Pearson should not be given, for example £5m and put under pressure to ‘reach the playoffs’. His brief should be spend that money on experienced players that will ‘steady the ship’ and nurture the talent. After all £5m is a fraction of what it would cost to bring instant success.

[Swede]

1 hour ago, Bar BS3 said:

It's not A defeat - it's ANOTHER defeat. 

It's not A bad performance - it's ANOTHER bad performance. 

It's not A list of embarrassing match statistics - it's ANOTHER list of embarrassing match statistics.

How anyone can justifiably argue in Nigel Pearson's favour at the moment baffles me!

We are aimless, clueless and only through very good fortune not looking back on even worse results. 

I can't recall us being unlucky/undeserving of any results that have gone against us, yet there's a very good chance that the (few) points we've managed recently, will be deemed a travesty by pretty much any other team that we've taken them against. 

Yes; I would agree with everything you state. It's hard watching opposition having the better of most if not all games.

I think we were nose diving out of the Division last season and easily the worst team in the league hence the change in manager. We simply couldn't have gone on any further with the inexperienced Holden in charge.

With a new manager comes a new direction. Painful though it is but NP has arrested the slide. Maybe not quickly enough for some but a root and branch type review is exactly what was needed.

I think another bad result from another bad performance really just underlines the monumental mess we were left in from the previous regime.

It needs someone with an abrasive nature and strong will and "pearsonality" to pull us through. I do see improvement. We seem to have some endeavour and are trying to compete. Long term that's not enough but any improvement short term is welcome. 

I can't see any further improvement until Pearson can move more players on and get his players in. Can anybody else do a better job will always be the question? Especially with us struggling. I don't think anybody would know and I think that's more to do with the abject mess we were left in rather than Nigel Pearson. 

[054123]

2 minutes ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

I understand the need to rebuild and re-set . I knew that any improvement would not be linear given the depth of our squad and legacy issues.

I listen to NP's interviews and apart from the occasional almost spat-like sequence with an interviewer, I find him to talk more sense than several of his predecessors.

I made the point last season whilst he was caretaker that ,imo, he shouldn't be given the job until the very end of the season and I was definitely a minority voice. His record was W L L W D L L L D D L L L so 2 wins 3 draws and 9 losses. And a three year contract.

I don't think it could have got any worse so this season was always more likely to be an improvement This season he's played 23 matches and W7  D5 and L 11.  In the last 12 matches ( half the matches played) he has lost 7. This is where I have the problem about green shoots/improvement/right direction etc. I just dont see it when combined with performances which have been genuinely very poor and we've been incredibly fortunate not to have had a pasting from various teams courtesy of their bad finishing and not our resolute defending.

The record after over 8 months since Nige took over is Played 37 Lost 20 Drawn 8 and Won9 . If our performances showed that the players we have are giving their all for the shirt, team and Manager then I'd be less scathing. But the reality is that good moments of football are not in anything other than fleetingly brief periods and to my eyes  it's looking worse not better with relegation being a genuinely possible outcome. For this reason, I believe that unless there is an upturn in both points and performances then SL should cut his losses in December and bring in a new coach for the January window with the sole objective/brief to keep us in this division.

I think this is a reasoned argument albeit an unpopular one and not one that shrieks "Agenda" except to the many who perhaps dont have such a reasoned response as yourself. On that note thanks for you courteous, comprehensive and understandable reply.

I don’t think you have an agenda. I think you have an opinion and try to make it. I think you just want city to succeed like we all do.

I think the truth is somewhere in the middle at the moment.

I think we are hamstrung financially as a club which limits Steve Ls hand in both managerial and player decisions. We have created an awful FFP time bomb which I’m sure you’re aware of.

I personally don’t believe that it gets much better if at all, with another managerial change at this point.

My hope for this season was always that we stay up and i think we’ll do that. After that, I’m not sure. 

Im really concerned about FFP sanctions if we do not sell some players.

We gambled under Ashton and Johnson and like all gambled there’s a chance they don’t come off.

 

[swanker]

Pearson ain’t going nowhere. We lack quality players at the moment, everyone at the club knows that plus Pearson still wants to get rid of a few.

Dont panic, we’re witnessing a club in transition. 

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, bcfcnick said:

All the topsides in the Championship play a possession based game and we have the players who are better suited to that style. 

Not saying you are wrong, but interested in how you’d construct the team / personnel to change us to play a passing game. I don’t think it’s just a case of picking the more technical players btw.

I’m not sure we have the players, but I’m happy to be open minded to what you come up with.

[Northern Red]

What I continue to struggle with is the posters who, on the one hand, claim to accept that this is a season of transition and that they'd be happy with a finishing position somewhere between 12th and 20th, yet on the other hand don't seem to be able to handle the fact that a team that finishes in that area of the table will lose a fair amount of matches, some of them heavily and with poor performances.

[Bar BS3]

57 minutes ago, 054123 said:

I know you love city and just want us to do well, me too, so I’m not looking to be awkward but any team that finishes 15th or lower is going to have multiple these.

I agree that if it were a Johnson season where we should be finishing top 6, then it would unacceptable. For me I just thought we needed to stay up this year and by definition it meant the majority of games would be a struggle.

If we played with a shape, pattern & plan but just weren't good enough, then I'd agree - but honestly can't fathom what NP is doing or trying to instil into the team. 

We have no identity, style or tactics. 

It's literally like he just sends out a team of players and (very) occasionally, they at least feel up to battling for the game. 

We can & should be better, even if that better, isn't great. 

Too much of what's terrible should be able to be tinkered with to Improve, but it just doesn't happen and after 35/36 games, with the record he has to show, it's utterly unacceptable, imo. 

At least make us hard to beat & shite, rather than easy to beat & shite..! 

[Waconda]

3 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

If we played with a shape, pattern & plan but just weren't good enough, then I'd agree - but honestly can't fathom what NP is doing or trying to instil into the team. 

We have no identity, style or tactics. 

It's literally like he just sends out a team of players and (very) occasionally, they at least feel up to battling for the game. 

We can & should be better, even if that better, isn't great. 

Too much of what's terrible should be able to be tinkered with to Improve, but it just doesn't happen and after 35/36 games, with the record he has to show, it's utterly unacceptable, imo. 

At least make us hard to beat & shite, rather than easy to beat & shite..! 

Much truth in this, 3rd line especially.

[Redrascal2]

22 minutes ago, swanker said:

Pearson ain’t going nowhere. We lack quality players at the moment, everyone at the club knows that plus Pearson still wants to get rid of a few.

Dont panic, we’re witnessing a club in transition. 

Transitioning from the Championship to league 1 maybe.

[Bar BS3]

45 minutes ago, Swede said:

Yes; I would agree with everything you state. It's hard watching opposition having the better of most if not all games.

I think we were nose diving out of the Division last season and easily the worst team in the league hence the change in manager. We simply couldn't have gone on any further with the inexperienced Holden in charge.

With a new manager comes a new direction. Painful though it is but NP has arrested the slide. Maybe not quickly enough for some but a root and branch type review is exactly what was needed.

I think another bad result from another bad performance really just underlines the monumental mess we were left in from the previous regime.

I could possibly buy into that, until you look at our record of when a Holden was in charge, compared to the same amount of games that NP has been in charge. 

NP has had a transfer window and has key players available that were crocked for most of Holden’s tenure. 

I dont/didnt expect miracles, but I expected a darn site better than the utter dross we've had since NP has been here, and (bar the very odd spirited exception) look worse week after week..! 

[Swede]

2 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

I could possibly buy into that, until you look at our record of when a Holden was in charge, compared to the same amount of games that NP has been in charge. 

NP has had a transfer window and has key players available that were crocked for most of Holden’s tenure. 

I dont/didnt expect miracles, but I expected a darn site better than the utter dross we've had since NP has been here, and (bar the very odd spirited exception) look worse week after week..! 

That's a fair point. We've also lost players who wanted out or were entitled to move on because of the rules surrounding offering the same or improved terms to players in a covid affected market Dhiedhou, Paterson & Walsh spring to mind.

[Davefevs]

57 minutes ago, MattWSM said:

No I don't think he is the answer. 

It's a Brownhill type

Brownhill never really read the game and broke up play as per your requirements in your initial post.  We do miss Brownhill though.  Imagine him and a fit Williams with a peak-Pack.  That would be a v.good MF3.

47 minutes ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

I understand the need to rebuild and re-set . I knew that any improvement would not be linear given the depth of our squad and legacy issues.

I listen to NP's interviews and apart from the occasional almost spat-like sequence with an interviewer, I find him to talk more sense than several of his predecessors.

I made the point last season whilst he was caretaker that ,imo, he shouldn't be given the job until the very end of the season and I was definitely a minority voice. His record was W L L W D L L L D D L L L so 2 wins 3 draws and 9 losses. And a three year contract.

I don't think it could have got any worse so this season was always more likely to be an improvement This season he's played 23 matches and W7  D5 and L 11.  In the last 12 matches ( half the matches played) he has lost 7. This is where I have the problem about green shoots/improvement/right direction etc. I just dont see it when combined with performances which have been genuinely very poor and we've been incredibly fortunate not to have had a pasting from various teams courtesy of their bad finishing and not our resolute defending.

The record after over 8 months since Nige took over is Played 37 Lost 20 Drawn 8 and Won9 . If our performances showed that the players we have are giving their all for the shirt, team and Manager then I'd be less scathing. But the reality is that good moments of football are not in anything other than fleetingly brief periods and to my eyes  it's looking worse not better with relegation being a genuinely possible outcome. For this reason, I believe that unless there is an upturn in both points and performances then SL should cut his losses in December and bring in a new coach for the January window with the sole objective/brief to keep us in this division.

I think this is a reasoned argument albeit an unpopular one and not one that shrieks "Agenda" except to the many who perhaps dont have such a reasoned response as yourself. On that note thanks for you courteous, comprehensive and understandable reply.

39 minutes ago, 054123 said:

I don’t think you have an agenda. I think you have an opinion and try to make it. I think you just want city to succeed like we all do.

I think the truth is somewhere in the middle at the moment.

I think we are hamstrung financially as a club which limits Steve Ls hand in both managerial and player decisions. We have created an awful FFP time bomb which I’m sure you’re aware of.

I personally don’t believe that it gets much better if at all, with another managerial change at this point.

My hope for this season was always that we stay up and i think we’ll do that. After that, I’m not sure. 

Im really concerned about FFP sanctions if we do not sell some players.

We gambled under Ashton and Johnson and like all gambled there’s a chance they don’t come off.

 

Good post.

MRR, the good thing is that you debate, discuss, you respond to questions / challenges, pose the same back.  That’s OTIB at its best, even when coming from either side of the face.  At least we understand where each comes from.

I’m not happy with the combination of results and performances.  Nobody watching on Robinstv / red button shouted at the screen as much as me today.  I got told off by Mrs Fevs and mini-Mrs Fevs!!

I could easily sit here tonight and start a thread - Pearson Out, and come up with reasons why.  But I wouldn’t be being honest to myself, because I really think this is a mess…and I’m grateful he took the challenge.  He may not succeed, none of us knows.

I probably haven’t articulated this next thought very well in the past.  I started to allude to it over the break.  We have players who in the past may well have looked better because they were made to by others, or because they just created a great partnership?  Without some of those teammates, who’ve now moved on, they’re a bit exposed, it’s them having to step up to the plate, no security blanket in players x and y to save their bacon.

So our squad isn’t as strong as it might feel it is on paper.  It only looks fine, lower / mid-table when everyone is fit and available and in form.  As every little link breaks the chain becomes weaker.  We do have enough to stay in games and eke out results, but we will have games where we are exposed, like today.  United with Sande Berge £16m and Brewster £23m in their ranks, although it was freebie McGoldrick and Wolves loanee Gibbs-White who were the thorns in our side.

I think Nige / Gould have recognised that and will attempt to bring forward some of next summer’s transfer options, but I think it’s not gonna go down well with the fans…e.g. one or two Tanners and Atkinsons.

We have to hang in there.

I might be barking up the wrong tree but I sense Nige’s determination to succeed, almost a challenge to take a club like City and completely turn it around against a tough backdrop.  In some respects his reputation post-City doesn’t matter, I think this will be his last job.  I’m not sure some other managers would’ve accepted this job, even those bright young(er) things in lower leagues, who might worry about a Champ relegation on their CVs ending their careers.

Never dull is it?

[bcfcnick]

29 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Not saying you are wrong, but interested in how you’d construct the team / personnel to change us to play a passing game. I don’t think it’s just a case of picking the more technical players btw.

I’m not sure we have the players, but I’m happy to be open minded to what you come up with.

To play that style I think it's a mindset and basic instructions rather than chopping and changing personnel from within the sqad.  A simple start would be for Bentley not to hoof it over the midfield every time he gets possession.  It has to be an instruction from the coaching staff.  You like your stats and it would be interesting to see the %  that we lose possession from that tactic alone.   I'm sure it would be an exceptionally high figure.  Football at its best is a simple game, and if you are asking one of the slowest players on the pitch (Martin) to chase a ball against much faster players then the outcome isn't hard to predict.   

As far as personnel is concerned ,I think all the players, with the exception of Weimann and the centre halves, are much better suited to a possession based game.   We do need a clinical finisher though and part of the problem is a lack of goals in the team from centre backs chipping in right the way through the team. We've not has a goal scoring midfielder for quite a while now.   It's an interesting exercise to add up the expected goals per player from all those playing and, unfortunately, it's not a high tally and is part of the problem.

So I am not saying a change of style would send us shooting up the league table without some goals added to the side which wouldn't be easy with the available budget, but if we are going to be in the wrong half we can at least start to play attractive football that would suit the abilities and development of the likes of Scott, Benarous, Massengo, Bakinson, Atkinson, Tanner, o'dowda, Pring etc. They should be allowed to play without fear as well as they are all good footballers and I don't think the way we play brings the best out of players and clearly it's not bringing the best in terms of results either.

[Northern Red]

34 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 I might be barking up the wrong tree but I sense Nige’s determination to succeed, almost a challenge to take a club like City and completely turn it around against a tough backdrop.  In some respects his reputation post-City doesn’t matter, I think this will be his last job.  I’m not sure some other managers would’ve accepted this job, even those bright young(er) things in lower leagues, who might worry about a Champ relegation on their CVs ending their careers.

This is a very important point. I accept that there probably are managers out there who could have come in and made more of an instant impact than Nige has, had us playing better football, maybe had us with better results. But would they have been up for the challenge of basically rebuilding the club behind the scenes, where you might have to sacrifice short term results for long term progress?

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, bcfcnick said:

To play that style I think it's a mindset and basic instructions rather than chopping and changing personnel from within the sqad.  A simple start would be for Bentley not to hoof it over the midfield every time he gets possession.  It has to be an instruction from the coaching staff.  You like your stats and it would be interesting to see the %  that we lose possession from that tactic alone.   I'm sure it would be an exceptionally high figure.  Football at its best is a simple game, and if you are asking one of the slowest players on the pitch (Martin) to chase a ball against much faster players then the outcome isn't hard to predict.   

As far as personnel is concerned ,I think all the players, with the exception of Weimann and the centre halves, are much better suited to a possession based game.   We do need a clinical finisher though and part of the problem is a lack of goals in the team from centre backs chipping in right the way through the team. We've not has a goal scoring midfielder for quite a while now.   It's an interesting exercise to add up the expected goals per player from all those playing and, unfortunately, it's not a high tally and is part of the problem.

So I am not saying a change of style would send us shooting up the league table without some goals added to the side which wouldn't be easy with the available budget, but if we are going to be in the wrong half we can at least start to play attractive football that would suit the abilities and development of the likes of Scott, Benarous, Massengo, Bakinson, Atkinson, Tanner, o'dowda, Pring etc. They should be allowed to play without fear as well as they are all good footballers and I don't think the way we play brings the best out of players and clearly it's not bringing the best in terms of results either.

Why is Bentley hoofing it?

You then add that our centre halves aren’t suited, well that answers the question above.  Without Williams we don’t really have a CM who can play 360 degrees either.

Again I’m not saying you’re wrong, but my challenge back would be:

worth going and watching Peterborough play a few games.  They play some lovely patterns.  They have 4 wins, 4 draws, 12 defeats, scored 4 less than us, conceded 7 more than us.

They play nice football because they commit their own defenders into passing patterns to create the extra man, that allows them to pass it.  But when they lose the ball their defence is a shambles.  They get punished.

That’s the price they paid for trying to play a nice passing game.  The match before us, they parked the bus against Bournemouth and got a 0-0.  Trying to play football against us and losing 3-2 or grinding out a 0-0 v AFCB.  Which way gives them a fighting chance of staying up?

I loved Cotts, but his stubbornness to play night flying centre backs and Freeman in the hole in a 3421 / 5212 cost is several games.  We got demolished 4-0 by Fulham at AG yet played some really good stuff.  That lovely stuff was because we committed an extra man to the attack, but we’re good enough to execute, and we got caught naively time after time.  I just think telling Ayling to stay back and moving Freeman into a more LCM role were the small tweaks that could e made a difference.

I genuinely think playing nice football at this point of the build will put us in more relegation danger than playing the direct stuff we are at the mo’.  Over time, absolutely, and today is not the best benchmark either.

[MattWSM]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Brownhill never really read the game and broke up play as per your requirements in your initial post.  We do miss Brownhill though.  Imagine him and a fit Williams with a peak-Pack.  That would be a v.good MF3.

Good post.

MRR, the good thing is that you debate, discuss, you respond to questions / challenges, pose the same back.  That’s OTIB at its best, even when coming from either side of the face.  At least we understand where each comes from.

I’m not happy with the combination of results and performances.  Nobody watching on Robinstv / red button shouted at the screen as much as me today.  I got told off by Mrs Fevs and mini-Mrs Fevs!!

I could easily sit here tonight and start a thread - Pearson Out, and come up with reasons why.  But I wouldn’t be being honest to myself, because I really think this is a mess…and I’m grateful he took the challenge.  He may not succeed, none of us knows.

I probably haven’t articulated this next thought very well in the past.  I started to allude to it over the break.  We have players who in the past may well have looked better because they were made to by others, or because they just created a great partnership?  Without some of those teammates, who’ve now moved on, they’re a bit exposed, it’s them having to step up to the plate, no security blanket in players x and y to save their bacon.

So our squad isn’t as strong as it might feel it is on paper.  It only looks fine, lower / mid-table when everyone is fit and available and in form.  As every little link breaks the chain becomes weaker.  We do have enough to stay in games and eke out results, but we will have games where we are exposed, like today.  United with Sande Berge £16m and Brewster £23m in their ranks, although it was freebie McGoldrick and Wolves loanee Gibbs-White who were the thorns in our side.

I think Nige / Gould have recognised that and will attempt to bring forward some of next summer’s transfer options, but I think it’s not gonna go down well with the fans…e.g. one or two Tanners and Atkinsons.

We have to hang in there.

I might be barking up the wrong tree but I sense Nige’s determination to succeed, almost a challenge to take a club like City and completely turn it around against a tough backdrop.  In some respects his reputation post-City doesn’t matter, I think this will be his last job.  I’m not sure some other managers would’ve accepted this job, even those bright young(er) things in lower leagues, who might worry about a Champ relegation on their CVs ending their careers.

Never dull is it?

Sorry I have to disagree about Brownhill, he had all round attributes, attacking and defensive, its mainly that type of player is what is missing in my opinion. An experienced midfield general but no I have no idea who that is but I am fairly sure we don't have that player in our squad. 1 good recruit in Jan will breathe confidence into this side, so we finish comfortably in the middle 3rd of the table.

Edited November 28, 2021 by MattWSM
typo

[bpexile]

30 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Why is Bentley hoofing it?

You then add that our centre halves aren’t suited, well that answers the question above.  Without Williams we don’t really have a CM who can play 360 degrees either.

Again I’m not saying you’re wrong, but my challenge back would be:

worth going and watching Peterborough play a few games.  They play some lovely patterns.  They have 4 wins, 4 draws, 12 defeats, scored 4 less than us, conceded 7 more than us.

They play nice football because they commit their own defenders into passing patterns to create the extra man, that allows them to pass it.  But when they lose the ball their defence is a shambles.  They get punished.

That’s the price they paid for trying to play a nice passing game.  The match before us, they parked the bus against Bournemouth and got a 0-0.  Trying to play football against us and losing 3-2 or grinding out a 0-0 v AFCB.  Which way gives them a fighting chance of staying up?

I loved Cotts, but his stubbornness to play night flying centre backs and Freeman in the hole in a 3421 / 5212 cost is several games.  We got demolished 4-0 by Fulham at AG yet played some really good stuff.  That lovely stuff was because we committed an extra man to the attack, but we’re good enough to execute, and we got caught naively time after time.  I just think telling Ayling to stay back and moving Freeman into a more LCM role were the small tweaks that could e made a difference.

I genuinely think playing nice football at this point of the build will put us in more relegation danger than playing the direct stuff we are at the mo’.  Over time, absolutely, and today is not the best benchmark either.

I always enjoy reading your rational posts Fevs, thankyou for keeping a level head before posting. It's a shame that many others can't accept the old saying that "Rome Wasn't Built in a Day".  It's old hat but so very very true & imo NP just has to be given the time & backing to succeed, then if he fails the inevitable will have to take place.

[Davefevs]

8 minutes ago, bpexile said:

I always enjoy reading your rational posts Fevs, thankyou for keeping a level head before posting. It's a shame that many others can't accept the old saying that "Rome Wasn't Built in a Day".  It's old hat but so very very true & imo NP just has to be given the time & backing to succeed, then if he fails the inevitable will have to take place.

I don’t get too excited when we win, I don’t get too down when we lose.

I was massively frustrated today, yet the game was salvageable.

Here are some things that agitated me today:

Either a sloppy run, or a delayed pass, a stupid yellow, then goal from their possession.

Then Gibbs-White should’ve got a second yellow.

In second half.  We had 3 chances in succession, Weimann break from Martin pass, eventually Bakinson shot. Then Wells fails to find Weimann who is clean-through.  Then O’Dowda almost gets a good cross deflected in for an og.

Then Bentley throws the ball away trying to break Semenyo….they score from the retained possession.  He should’ve learned when throwing one out to HNM earlier.

I’m not saying we deserved anything today, we didn’t, but we had chances to change the complexion of the game.

So Bristol City.

 

[bpexile]

9 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I don’t get too excited when we win, I don’t get too down when we lose.

I was massively frustrated today, yet the game was salvageable.

Here are some things that agitated me today:

Either a sloppy run, or a delayed pass, a stupid yellow, then goal from their possession.

Then Gibbs-White should’ve got a second yellow.

In second half.  We had 3 chances in succession, Weimann break from Martin pass, eventually Bakinson shot. Then Wells fails to find Weimann who is clean-through.  Then O’Dowda almost gets a good cross deflected in for an og.

Then Bentley throws the ball away trying to break Semenyo….they score from the retained possession.  He should’ve learned when throwing one out to HNM earlier.

I’m not saying we deserved anything today, we didn’t, but we had chances to change the complexion of the game.

So Bristol City.

 

Obviously some of the errors NP spoke about, very frustrating.

[firstdivision]

4 hours ago, Davefevs said:

My thoughts are that the first few months of the projects were actually planning the next few years.

If you look at things purely in terms of what happens on the pitch, you are missing a lot of other stuff going on.

Results aren’t great, performances are very mixed.

But he’s had one summer, one window, a period when he had to jettison a lot of the squad for no money, cut costs significantly whilst trying to get a team together capable of starting the build.  He has that when enough players are fit.

You can’t define a team / result / performance with a midfield of Bakinson, Massengo and Benarous.  As well we did in 2 games last week to get through it and take 4 points, it was always gonna be tough without any of King, James and Williams.  Could’ve easily been zero points, so let’s give a bit of credit for the week overall, even if today was a big disappointment.

I do think there is a huge lack of patience.

I think there is a huge over-reaction to individual results and performances.  We are at the phase of a rebuild where we will probably have our weakest squad and this phase will be out most inconsistent.  Some of that inconsistency is in the range of poor to average.  I don’t think we will see many games this season where you think City were top class, win comfortably.  It’s gonna be a hard watch.

But the objective is to slowly improve.  But that won’t be a straight line.

 

Serious question, Dave. Would you accept that rebuild continuing in League One? ie if that's what has got to happen, so be it.

[Waconda]

3 minutes ago, firstdivision said:

Serious question, Dave. Would you accept that rebuild continuing in League One? ie if that's what has got to happen, so be it.

There is absolutely no need for us to be relegated to rebuild.

If it did happen then I can't see the manager staying.

[Polly]

2 hours ago, billywedlock said:

You can see a clear change since the coaching changed . There are still poor decisions and lack of confidence . But that is another issue . As is the inability to keep the ball . But that needs different prayers . 
 

 

Bring back Basso?

[firstdivision]

3 hours ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

I understand the need to rebuild and re-set . I knew that any improvement would not be linear given the depth of our squad and legacy issues.

I listen to NP's interviews and apart from the occasional almost spat-like sequence with an interviewer, I find him to talk more sense than several of his predecessors.

I made the point last season whilst he was caretaker that ,imo, he shouldn't be given the job until the very end of the season and I was definitely a minority voice. His record was W L L W D L L L D D L L L so 2 wins 3 draws and 9 losses. And a three year contract.

I don't think it could have got any worse so this season was always more likely to be an improvement This season he's played 23 matches and W7  D5 and L 11.  In the last 12 matches ( half the matches played) he has lost 7. This is where I have the problem about green shoots/improvement/right direction etc. I just dont see it when combined with performances which have been genuinely very poor and we've been incredibly fortunate not to have had a pasting from various teams courtesy of their bad finishing and not our resolute defending.

The record after over 8 months since Nige took over is Played 37 Lost 20 Drawn 8 and Won9 . If our performances showed that the players we have are giving their all for the shirt, team and Manager then I'd be less scathing. But the reality is that good moments of football are not in anything other than fleetingly brief periods and to my eyes  it's looking worse not better with relegation being a genuinely possible outcome. For this reason, I believe that unless there is an upturn in both points and performances then SL should cut his losses in December and bring in a new coach for the January window with the sole objective/brief to keep us in this division.

I think this is a reasoned argument albeit an unpopular one and not one that shrieks "Agenda" except to the many who perhaps dont have such a reasoned response as yourself. On that note thanks for you courteous, comprehensive and understandable reply.

This largely sums up my view as well. Some days, I think the solution is so obvious that it's not just staring us in the face, but whacking us over the head. I don't accept the premise that NP is somehow helpless against a Mark Ashton/Lee Johnson-inspired storm force ten. That's too fatalistic. 

A big part of management is problem solving. I don't see a huge amount of evidence that it's happening. I see a little, but not enough.

I get that we play hideous, safety-first football for a specific reason but I'd love to see a more agile, imaginative football mind in charge. Who? Good question. That's for others to decide. But there are plenty of people involved in the football world. Russell Martin was at MK Dons and someone took a chance of him. Barnsley didn't do too badly taking a punt on Valerien Ismael. Steve Cooper has helped revive Forest, wouldn't you know.

Even Hull have managed to win four games in a row. Can you imagine us doing that this season?

[Davefevs]

22 minutes ago, firstdivision said:

Serious question, Dave. Would you accept that rebuild continuing in League One? ie if that's what has got to happen, so be it.

No, that would be a disaster, because it’s absolutely avoidable.  You’d lose some of the players that are here that are key to that rebuild, so would a start from scratch….and if we went down I’m sure Nige wouldn’t remain here, so you just start with no plan again.  The risk being you get the plan wrong.

I think we got lucky that we had Keith Burt to “straddle” SOD and Cotts.  We had continuity.  We would lose all of that if we went down.

[firstdivision]

19 minutes ago, VT05763 said:

There is absolutely no need for us to be relegated to rebuild.

If it did happen then I can't see the manager staying.

Nor can I, but the point of my question - I suppose - is how far does Dave think 'the project' (which strikes me as an overblown concept - every club should have a project/plan all of the time if they have any self respect) should be allowed to continue before the plug is pulled.

[firstdivision]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

No, that would be a disaster, because it’s absolutely avoidable.  You’d lose some of the players that are here that are key to that rebuild, so would a start from scratch….and if we went down I’m sure Nige wouldn’t remain here, so you just start with no plan again.  The risk being you get the plan wrong.

I think we got lucky that we had Keith Burt to “straddle” SOD and Cotts.  We had continuity.  We would lose all of that if we went down.

So at what point this season would it be reasonable to pull the plug?