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Pearson & Fleming : OUT


Marina's Rolls Royce
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Yes it’s frustrating at present but even by OTIB standards I feel there is a massive over reaction to today’s result/performance.

Sheff U are in a very false position and have way more quality than us. I expect them to be top 6 come the season end if they get some rhythm now. We were poor today but I’ve seen far worse displays this season against much weaker opposition. Whilst we’ve seen a very brief up turn in form we still have square pegs in round holes at present. 

We lined up with the same system as them today. At least half of the Sheff U side that started the game were part of a very successful prem campaign under Wilder. Ok you could argue that they came down in the end but if you compare the starting line ups today man for man, given we played the same formation/system then the difference in class was pretty obvious. Plus every player they had was playing in their specialist position, whereas that wasn’t the case for us. For example Scott & COD have worked hard the last few games but they are both out of position and today were arguably against two of the best wing backs in the division.

I honestly didn’t expect to get anything from today. That’s not to say I’m not fed up, underwhelmed or disappointed but a sense of realism is needed I feel. Not much to be positive about after today but certainly no need for over the top NP out calls based off that display today.

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makes i laugh on here, how the hell can people slate kp when he has not even crossed the white line.i would like to see kp get a good run of games like he did when benik was here.all fans like to blame players but a good solid coach should know how to get the best out of them, what makes them tick and get the passion and pride out of them. Like it or not we have no passion no pride, no commitment no structure no pace and worse of all we cant find a formation that can put us on the front foot. Are football is boring to watch and has been for a long time.im not sure what nige is like in a changing room but if its anything like his interviews im not surprised the players look half asleep and disinterested. I use his interviews to help me sleep/better than taking a sleeping tablet and natural

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1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

I think there’s a difference between not giving their best, executing poorly and not being motivated for example.

Bad analogy coming up.  Do England cricket look as solid without Ben Stokes in the team?  You can bring in another all-rounder, but they aren’t Ben Stokes, they don’t make things happen with bat and / or ball.  If you take out one of your best players, you are weaker, whoever you bring in.  That’s means others have to step-up to fill the void.  I don’t think we have a lot who can step-up.

Yes agreed bad analogy. We cannot make Bakinson,  for example, a Joe Williams. But you should expect him to work hard and give all he has. A good example is George Tanner a full back from league 2 when he stepped in to the team he clearly was not a ready made Championship player but he gave you a whole hearted performance. He worked his socks off.I think it is reasonable to expect that from all 11 players who wear our shirt even if we lose the game. And I thought Pearson would provide that more regularly than he is.

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1 hour ago, RobintheRed Red said:

Dave they are dier we offer nothing upfront the only two chances we had was kallas Henderson and Wells when he should have squared it worst strikers in years id rather we had matty taylor and he was not championship standard thats how crap we are

They’re awful because they don’t create their own chances? 

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8 minutes ago, Redrascal2 said:

Yes agreed bad analogy. We cannot make Bakinson,  for example, a Joe Williams. But you should expect him to work hard and give all he has. A good example is George Tanner a full back from league 2 when he stepped in to the team he clearly was not a ready made Championship player but he gave you a whole hearted performance. He worked his socks off.I think it is reasonable to expect that from all 11 players who wear our shirt even if we lose the game. And I thought Pearson would provide that more regularly than he is.

I don’t think Bakinson will ever look like he’s working hard…languid running style doesn’t help.

But I thought on Sat and Wed he did ok at his defensive stuff.  He’s not perfect.

Today was crap all round.  If I had to give marks for the starting eleven there wouldn’t have been many who got a 6/10 - my “earning their corn” score.

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13 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I don’t think Bakinson will ever look like he’s working hard…languid running style doesn’t help.

But I thought on Sat and Wed he did ok at his defensive stuff.  He’s not perfect.

Today was crap all round.  If I had to give marks for the starting eleven there wouldn’t have been many who got a 6/10 - my “earning their corn” score.

Dave- he was the most amazing Introduction under Holden. Held the ball, protected it but mostly moved it forward. Like a deep lying playmaker. I was so excited that the youth, I had known less about than other on here, would be blended with the rest of the team. 

Now the youth development and loan system has been dismantled and the young players are just part of a squad.

dark days.
 

 

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48 minutes ago, Taylor10 said:

Yes it’s frustrating at present but even by OTIB standards I feel there is a massive over reaction to today’s result/performance.

I honestly didn’t expect to get anything from today. That’s not to say I’m not fed up, underwhelmed or disappointed but a sense of realism is needed I feel. Not much to be positive about after today but certainly no need for over the top NP out calls based off that display today.

If it were purely about just today then this thread wouldn't exist. The reaction is entirely understandable based on performances this season and the seven losses in the last 12 games. A number of fans are getting nervous about the potential of relegation whilst not really seeing a clear way to safety so again it's not about this one result.

For my part I only starting watching City ( age related!) in 1980/81 so I've spent most of my life watching  "3rd Division" football and every fibre in my body is dreading the possible return to that wretched and depressing league where the only joy is winning it. Lincoln, Morecombe, Accrington Stanley and the obligatory 8 matches with Gillingham- no thanks.

 

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12 hours ago, billywedlock said:

I think we look better . Impressive that we are playing so many young players and building their experience . In 3/4 years you will see the benefits . I don’t recall Holden or LJ playing such a young midfield . You have to live through that development .  You can see a clear change since the coaching changed . There are still poor decisions and lack of confidence . But that is another issue . As is the inability to keep the ball . But that needs different prayers . 
 

so with the current squad what is your team ? So it’s not dross . Where are the players ? Who are you playing ?  It’s easy to say it’s rubbish , but far harder to come up with tangible real solutions within the constraints we have .

Time to be strong and bold . We are in transition but we will be far stronger as a squad and team if we stick with it . There are great signs within the frustration . 
 

seems to me some need a relegation for some to wake up to the reality of the car crash that was created by Ashton and LJ ( and Lansdown ) 

So you think that NP is doing a reasonable job in getting the best out of the recourses that he has at his disposal..? 

You think we look organised & have a game plan...? 

Not being good enough is one think - looking like a clueless shambles, more often than not, is another. 

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On 06/11/2021 at 17:10, old_eastender said:

I really do wonder whether we can trust NP to turn this around. Mark Robins was once in the running for us, oh to see the style of pass and move football that Coventry produced with only 10 men.

And this possible appointment was derided by many on here as being unambitious and dull. 

Personally, I don't see the value in dumping Pearson now. Where are the better options out there?

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4 minutes ago, SecretSam said:

And this possible appointment was derided by many on here as being unambitious and dull. 

Personally, I don't see the value in dumping Pearson now. Where are the better options out there?

Mark Robins has turned out to be a very good coach.  Was he ever in the running, or just speculation? 

I’m not sure he would of took on such a big project. Yes he got Coventry to the Championship. But he’s walked out on clubs in his career and once before rejoining the sky blues. That’s a Risk knowing the owner. 
Nigel has a reputation of building foundations like he did at The Foxes.  Can he do the same here? Sir Alex had a difficult start at Man U and was one game away from being sacked if it wasn’t for Robins goal against Forest, I believe.

Yes we are at rock bottom playing poor football, sometimes even school boy football.  That’s not down to NP at the moment, that’s down what’s happen in the past.  It’s a ground up rebuild. We need more experience within the starting 11 fact. Once we have that we will start to climb the league.  If SL pulls the trigger now we will be never get off the merry go round IMO.
 We are having moments in games where we have had chances to score and should have. That’s an improvement.


 

 

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8 hours ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

If it were purely about just today then this thread wouldn't exist. The reaction is entirely understandable based on performances this season and the seven losses in the last 12 games. A number of fans are getting nervous about the potential of relegation whilst not really seeing a clear way to safety so again it's not about this one result.

For my part I only starting watching City ( age related!) in 1980/81 so I've spent most of my life watching  "3rd Division" football and every fibre in my body is dreading the possible return to that wretched and depressing league where the only joy is winning it. Lincoln, Morecombe, Accrington Stanley and the obligatory 8 matches with Gillingham- no thanks.

 

I too am very concerned and I think everyone is within their rights to question our current plight and manager. I don’t dispute that.
 

My point was really about those that seem genuinely shocked we got outplayed by Sheff U yesterday and seem to have used that argument to peddle NP out calls off the back of us not being able to compete with a side with a similar record/league position. To me it’s pretty obvious they are in a false position and are far superior all over the pitch. We also had a very depleted side.
 

Right to question NP overall? Absolutely, but the posts I’ve seen/pods I’ve listened to have had sections almost trying to use yesterday’s defeat as the final nail type scenario. As if to say ‘oh NP can’t get a tune out of our injury ravaged side against an ex prem side with a similar record to us’ or ‘if we can’t beat Sheff U we are bang in trouble’ which to me is an over reaction if it’s based off yesterday alone. Looking at the bigger picture I share your concerns but yesterday we were well beaten by a better side.

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6 minutes ago, Bodiesaffer said:

Yes we are at rock bottom playing poor football, sometimes even school boy football.  That’s not down to NP at the moment, that’s down what’s happen in the past.  It’s a ground up rebuild. We need more experience within the starting 11

Pearson has been here for what, 9 months ? When we had King & James in the starting XI we may have looked marginally better, but results were not. 
I don't see why Pearson should get a free pass, he picks the team, sets the shape and style . It may be a big, big ground up rebuild, but you still have to focus on the first team. Relegation would set us back years, with no guarantee we would bounce back. 

If we could get James, King and Williams back and keep them fit, I would hope things could improve. Sadly we can't be sure how soon that might happen, and you can't be certain that it would make the difference we hope it will.

 

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13 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

Pearson has been here for what, 9 months ? When we had King & James in the starting XI we may have looked marginally better, but results were not. 
I don't see why Pearson should get a free pass, he picks the team, sets the shape and style . It may be a big, big ground up rebuild, but you still have to focus on the first team. Relegation would set us back years, with no guarantee we would bounce back. 

If we could get James, King and Williams back and keep them fit, I would hope things could improve. Sadly we can't be sure how soon that might happen, and you can't be certain that it would make the difference we hope it will.

 

We know they will improve the situation we’ve all seen this for our very own eyes. Yes we need them fit, and we need others to step back on the bus.  We have no choice in giving him a free pass this season, we haven’t got the funds. We need to trust it’s improving behind the scenes 1st then hopefully we will see this improve on the pitch.  Frustrating as it is for us all it is what it is.  A total shambles from past mistakes now coming to affect. 
 

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OTIB really has become so absurd. Last Wednesday people were going on about the play offs now they want everyone fired. We must have lost a game. 
 

I don’t see what changing managers does at this stage. Pearson seems to me to be clear in his strategy. He wants a much smaller squad of players who are going to create a promotion winning team. It will take him 3 years to do that and this is year one. 

Loads of players went last summer, more will go next year. Then Pearson should have the space to bring in another few players he wants to build the team he believes will be successful. 

Yes we could change now but all that does is bring in a new management team with a different three year plan and we are back at a square one which may, or may not work. 
 

I have no idea why people do not get that to change the entire football strategy was always going to take time. By this time next season we will have a much better idea on how successful the Pearson approach will be. 
 

 

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11 hours ago, red colin said:

Why don't we try not playing weimann..he plays every game season after season. I have never been convinced.  he runs yes. He is usually running in an offside position, he is almost always never in full control of the ball and for me the ONLY place he looks dangerous possibly cos he is never in control of the ball is straight down the middle.anywhere else he just fills a hole. Let's try without him for a few games. 

Trouble is, a) Do you drop your top scorer? And b) When Wiemann was injured last year we were palpably worse and even more threat less. IMHO our prob Le, (possibly since Hartley left) is that our midfield is weak. For years now defenders have been lumping long, aimless balls to the front, totally by passing the midfield. 

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15 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Why is Bentley hoofing it? ...

I genuinely think playing nice football at this point of the build will put us in more relegation danger than playing the direct stuff we are at the mo’.  Over time, absolutely, and today is not the best benchmark either.

Hoofing? I guess, Dave, that's my lazy shorthand shorthand for 'precision placed kicks to the opposition in the final third'  Agreed, Bentley doesn't hoof or rarely slices Fielding style. The result is still the same though - the opposition take possession and that's the point. 

I also don't think it's coincidence that the very rare times we have played decent passing football we have had better results.  That applies to all recent managers.  I remember we played some really attractive football in one game (yes just the one!) when the players were prepared by Simpson and Downing after Pearson was appointed but he was just observing rather than setting up the team.  I also believe we resort to the 'clear the lines' style you are advocating even more in the latter phases of games when we have been in front and are desperately clinging on.  Again, it's no coincidence we are more prone to concede. 

I just don't think passing to the opposition is a good tactic or makes for good viewing.  I could see your point about playing functional just to survive in the Championship if we had a team of Warnock-style lumps.  But we don't, the reality is quite the opposite.  

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13 hours ago, Taylor10 said:

Yes it’s frustrating at present but even by OTIB standards I feel there is a massive over reaction to today’s result/performance.

Sheff U are in a very false position and have way more quality than us. I expect them to be top 6 come the season end if they get some rhythm now. We were poor today but I’ve seen far worse displays this season against much weaker opposition. Whilst we’ve seen a very brief up turn in form we still have square pegs in round holes at present. 

We lined up with the same system as them today. At least half of the Sheff U side that started the game were part of a very successful prem campaign under Wilder. Ok you could argue that they came down in the end but if you compare the starting line ups today man for man, given we played the same formation/system then the difference in class was pretty obvious. Plus every player they had was playing in their specialist position, whereas that wasn’t the case for us. For example Scott & COD have worked hard the last few games but they are both out of position and today were arguably against two of the best wing backs in the division.

I honestly didn’t expect to get anything from today. That’s not to say I’m not fed up, underwhelmed or disappointed but a sense of realism is needed I feel. Not much to be positive about after today but certainly no need for over the top NP out calls based off that display today.

Spot on. 

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The biggest problem we have at the moment is the lack of experience in all parts of the field. Having now lost Baker, James, King and Williams we only really have Kalas and the front 2 to add any real Championship experience. I don’t count Bentley for the most part as he is too isolated being in goal, Callum who doesn’t seem to have the wherewithal to dictate play or Jay who is out of sorts. Therefore I think taking out either of the front two would weaken us even further. Weimann could move into Scott’s position and then bring in Wells or Semenyo but options are limited.

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6 hours ago, Capman said:

OTIB really has become so absurd. Last Wednesday people were going on about the play offs now they want everyone fired. We must have lost a game. 
 

I don’t see what changing managers does at this stage. Pearson seems to me to be clear in his strategy. He wants a much smaller squad of players who are going to create a promotion winning team. It will take him 3 years to do that and this is year one. 

Loads of players went last summer, more will go next year. Then Pearson should have the space to bring in another few players he wants to build the team he believes will be successful. 

Yes we could change now but all that does is bring in a new management team with a different three year plan and we are back at a square one which may, or may not work. 
 

I have no idea why people do not get that to change the entire football strategy was always going to take time. By this time next season we will have a much better idea on how successful the Pearson approach will be. 
 

 

I don't remember reading about supporters saying anything about play-offs  after Wednesdays game, but I do remember reading how far we are away from the  bottom three, 

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1 hour ago, Redandproud said:

I don't remember reading about supporters saying anything about play-offs  after Wednesdays game, but I do remember reading how far we are away from the  bottom three, 

Think it was the sky tv interviewer who raised the question of playoff and Nige put him in his place.  I think people picked up on that, not that we were playoff material itself.

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22 hours ago, bcfcnick said:

Hoofing? I guess, Dave, that's my lazy shorthand shorthand for 'precision placed kicks to the opposition in the final third'  Agreed, Bentley doesn't hoof or rarely slices Fielding style. The result is still the same though - the opposition take possession and that's the point. 

I also don't think it's coincidence that the very rare times we have played decent passing football we have had better results.  That applies to all recent managers.  I remember we played some really attractive football in one game (yes just the one!) when the players were prepared by Simpson and Downing after Pearson was appointed but he was just observing rather than setting up the team.  I also believe we resort to the 'clear the lines' style you are advocating even more in the latter phases of games when we have been in front and are desperately clinging on.  Again, it's no coincidence we are more prone to concede. 

I just don't think passing to the opposition is a good tactic or makes for good viewing.  I could see your point about playing functional just to survive in the Championship if we had a team of Warnock-style lumps.  But we don't, the reality is quite the opposite.  

Fielding was ordered to kick it into or very close to touch - It was a tactic, either a flick on or the opposition gets a throw inside their half for us to win the ball back high.

Other teams do the same.

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18 hours ago, Ivorguy said:

If some of the players have not bought in to NP’s ethos, and if SL is unwilling to invest in a meaningful way in January, then you may sadly get your wish for if I was NP I would walk away from a job that was undoable.

This scenario is possible in my view. Once it (if) moves on from "some" to "several" players it's over.

Still time to turn it around and Blackburn was definitely a positive, both on the pitch and in the dug out. 

Proving that it CAN be done and the players ARE coachable/capable.

How much Fleming was in charge pre Blackburn would be interesting to know.

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On 28/11/2021 at 16:54, Davefevs said:

My thoughts are that the first few months of the projects were actually planning the next few years.

If you look at things purely in terms of what happens on the pitch, you are missing a lot of other stuff going on.

Results aren’t great, performances are very mixed.

But he’s had one summer, one window, a period when he had to jettison a lot of the squad for no money, cut costs significantly whilst trying to get a team together capable of starting the build.  He has that when enough players are fit.

You can’t define a team / result / performance with a midfield of Bakinson, Massengo and Benarous.  As well we did in 2 games last week to get through it and take 4 points, it was always gonna be tough without any of King, James and Williams.  Could’ve easily been zero points, so let’s give a bit of credit for the week overall, even if today was a big disappointment.

I do think there is a huge lack of patience.

I think there is a huge over-reaction to individual results and performances.  We are at the phase of a rebuild where we will probably have our weakest squad and this phase will be out most inconsistent.  Some of that inconsistency is in the range of poor to average.  I don’t think we will see many games this season where you think City were top class, win comfortably.  It’s gonna be a hard watch.

But the objective is to slowly improve.  But that won’t be a straight line.

 

Exactly my thoughts Dave. A random question for you... you've said on here a few times that fans are naive to think that attacking formations or throwing on attacking players is the way to be a more attacking team. Interestingly, this is Nige's strategy for the last 15 minutes of any game we're losing. When he does his kitchen sink strategy do you wince and think, 'subtlety Nige!', or do you think that's the correct way to turn a game around.

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34 minutes ago, mozo said:

Exactly my thoughts Dave. A random question for you... you've said on here a few times that fans are naive to think that attacking formations or throwing on attacking players is the way to be a more attacking team. Interestingly, this is Nige's strategy for the last 15 minutes of any game we're losing. When he does his kitchen sink strategy do you wince and think, 'subtlety Nige!', or do you think that's the correct way to turn a game around.

What I have most definitely stated is:

- one up top is not more defensive than two up top or vice versa

- 5 at the back is not more defensive than 4 at the back or vice versa

which is what bugs me when I hear people go on BBCRB and say “how can we expect to have more than 1 shot on target at home when we only play one striker”, or “it’s too defensive to play a back five at home”, etc.

I’d most definitely argue a 451 with Martin up top and O’Dowda, Semenyo on the flanks, with Benarous, Scott and James is pretty attacking….yet only one striker.

460 was pretty good with neither Pato and Reid playing as out and out strikers.  It’s all about making it cohesive.

On Sunday, what he didn’t do was bring on Wells, Semenyo and just play them with his original pair of Weimann and Martin as a 4 across the front line.  He did switch to a 343, with Weimann going to RWB, Scott into midfield with the 3 others up top.

I don’t have an issue with kitchen-sink either….I didn’t criticise Holden v Swansea (a) in his caretaker spell, when if Fam has scored his spot-kick, we’d have taken a point.  That felt like a 1-2-7 for action!  Last 10 mins of a game, why not?  Especially if the current tactic is bearing no fruit.  On other occasions, it is working, but you need patience, the chance will come.  I criticised LJ for moving Flint up front v Wolves.  Most people criticised him for not moving him back after we scored.  For me, I was happy to grind and grind all game against their 10 men, knackering them and knackering them.  If we got the goal great, but don’t lose from 0-0.  I think if we’d have stayed in shape, we’d have made them chase us and tire themselves out.  But by doing what he did with Flint, he created an open game.

 

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