Pearson & Fleming : OUT

[Waconda]

10 hours ago, bcfcnick said:

Yes, that's true, it is a tactic, but, unfortunately, it's not a very successful tactic for City. That's because the players are, thankfully IMO, not suited to the tactic or long-ball football in general. That subjective view seems to be supported by the stats.   James Piercy has just come up with the stats I was looking for.

From the Hull game, 29.6%  of Bentley's passes  (27) were deemed successful.  You can guarantee that almost all of the 70% failed passes (approx 56 passes) were long ball efforts.  Gifting the ball 56 times to the opposition from long ball hit and hope efforts when there is no need to is neither easy on the eye or effective 'functional' football.  

Pearson isn't usually lumped with the route one Warnock and Allardyce style so when he says the team is a 'work in progress' the hope is that the style of play is also something he wants to see evolve 

I suppose the only stat missing is how any of the successful 26 long ball attempts led to an effort on goal.  I doubt it is many and any chances created have to be measured against the efforts on goal from the opposition that stem from the 70% conceding of long ball efforts from Bentley.  

Yep you are right. 

I am not defending the tactic by the way but have seen many on here moan about Fielding continuingly kicking the ball out unaware that he was told to do so, or at least get it very close to the touchline.

We need to practice many more 2 touch, small sided games in training. 

Hours, hours and hours of it.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, bcfcnick said:

You are right, my abacus was playing up 

 I still think James Piercy makes a good point and confirms what fans can see. The problem the stats identify has to come from coaching instructions rather than the keepers own instinct to repeat actions that lead to conceding possession at a level just above 70%

Here's the full quote from the article:

" if Pearson wants City to be a more imposing team in possession they have to be more efficient, as he says, and use the ball more consistently, as he also says.

That's sometimes hard to do when so many long balls are being delivered from deep - 26 of Dan Bentley's 27 passes were classified as "long passes", as were 16 of Vyner's 65 (24 per cent).

Now, that could be with the fault of the player in the latter's sense, either attempting too many ambitious balls, but in the case of the goalkeeper that's surely a direct instruction given the sheer frequency.

And considering Bentley's overall passing accuracy was just 29.6 per cent, City are ceding control of possession in comfortable areas far too easily."

 

Yep, agree.  Some teams use their keeper to maintain possession, we use ours to boot it long (in the main).  Not helped by Bentley retreating whilst he waits for the ball to get there, forcing him deeper…and sometimes leading to that sliced, high clearance which doesn’t get to the h-w line.  If he actually received the ball on his 18 yard box, rather than deep in his box then he probably creates a short passing option too.

At least on Saturday the CBs did try to play through the midfield.  I sense that with Vyner and Atkinson either side of Kalas there is a desire to “play” when possible, and we did that v Hull.  James and Massengo kept the ball moving, and we had Antoine showing for a ground pass too.

Maybe the fact that we had more possession and therefore less chasing meant we could force the equaliser late into the game, despite conceding in the 79th minute.

If we take the positives from the last two games:

• good press v Derby
• very few shots conceded v Derby
• more passes v Hull
• more possession v Hull
• created good situations v Hull (bar the final ball)

maybe the improvement is slowly happening.

[Hampshire reds]

There needs to be a sign of improvement as its not a great watch at the moment. To be fair the results have improved which was needed. Desperately need at least 3 Quality signings in jan.

[Davefevs]

27 minutes ago, Hampshire reds said:

There needs to be a sign of improvement as its not a great watch at the moment. To be fair the results have improved which was needed. Desperately need at least 3 Quality signings in jan.

I don’t think we will get them.  I think it is more of Tanner and Atkinson types, brought forward from the summer plan.  It will give them 6 months to embed, unlike Tanner and Atkinson who’ve been thrown in immediately.  Okay more expectation of Atkinson than Tanner, but in Tanner’s case, it shows you can pluck someone from Lg2 that is capable of playing this level.  In the past “one for the future” was rarely seen for a good while (if at all).

[swanker]

32 minutes ago, Hampshire reds said:

There needs to be a sign of improvement as its not a great watch at the moment. To be fair the results have improved which was needed. Desperately need at least 3 Quality signings in jan.

It hasn’t been a great watch for about three seasons now. It’s going to take a bit of time but we’ll get there. 

[Redrascal2]

58 minutes ago, Hampshire reds said:

There needs to be a sign of improvement as its not a great watch at the moment. To be fair the results have improved which was needed. Desperately need at least 3 Quality signings in jan.

There is a large gulf between what we need and what we can afford. And Pearson will not be able to spend money that he does not have.

[Malago]

5 hours ago, bcfcnick said:

You are right, my abacus was playing up 

 I still think James Piercy makes a good point and confirms what fans can see. The problem the stats identify has to come from coaching instructions rather than the keepers own instinct to repeat actions that lead to conceding possession at a level just above 70%

Here's the full quote from the article:

" if Pearson wants City to be a more imposing team in possession they have to be more efficient, as he says, and use the ball more consistently, as he also says.

That's sometimes hard to do when so many long balls are being delivered from deep - 26 of Dan Bentley's 27 passes were classified as "long passes", as were 16 of Vyner's 65 (24 per cent).

Now, that could be with the fault of the player in the latter's sense, either attempting too many ambitious balls, but in the case of the goalkeeper that's surely a direct instruction given the sheer frequency.

And considering Bentley's overall passing accuracy was just 29.6 per cent, City are ceding control of possession in comfortable areas far too easily."

 

My take on this is that Pearson doesn’t trust the players he’s got to play out from the back.  

[Port Said Red]

2 hours ago, Malago said:

My take on this is that Pearson doesn’t trust the players he’s got to play out from the back.  

It takes the pressure off them, especially in a period when confidence was low. I think you will see it improve if we can string some results together. There were signs that things were changing against Derby with good forward runs from Atkinson and shorter passes from Kalas.

[Dunc]

3 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I don’t think we will get them.  I think it is more of Tanner and Atkinson types, brought forward from the summer plan.  It will give them 6 months to embed, unlike Tanner and Atkinson who’ve been thrown in immediately.  Okay more expectation of Atkinson than Tanner, but in Tanner’s case, it shows you can pluck someone from Lg2 that is capable of playing this level.  In the past “one for the future” was rarely seen for a good while (if at all).

Much prefer the new "one for the future but thrown in straight away approach". I hope the days of us spending millions on 'potential' for players that barely get a sniff in the first team (e.g. Szmodics, Engvall, Eisa) are over. Cheap young rough diamonds to train up OK. But if we're spending a sizeable wedge they should be better than what we have, or at least able to quickly compete for the shirt at this level. Atkinson and Tanner exactly the sort of signings we should be making imho.

[2015]

I'd go for Freddie Ladapo from Rotherham. He'd cause issues with his pace in our side.

[Robbored]

3 hours ago, Malago said:

My take on this is that Pearson doesn’t trust the players he’s got to play out from the back.  

The only defender that can and does play out from the back is Atkinson. Kalas doesn’t have that ability in his locker so it’s not about Nige not trusting, it’s about having the ability.

[bcfc01]

34 minutes ago, Robbored said:

The only defender that can and does play out from the back is Atkinson. Kalas doesn’t have that ability in his locker so it’s not about Nige not trusting, it’s about having the ability.

Disagree re Kalas.

He is quite capable of passing out from the back and also quite capable of making runs with the at his feet ball from inside our half to halfway inside the opposition half no problem.

First and foremost though, he loves defending and chucking himself in front of shots etc. 

[Robbored]

21 minutes ago, bcfc01 said:

Disagree re Kalas.

He is quite capable of passing out from the back and also quite capable of making runs with the at his feet ball from inside our half to halfway inside the opposition half no problem.

First and foremost though, he loves defending and chucking himself in front of shots etc. 

i can’t ever recall seeing Kalas do a Webster and bring the ball out of defence. The only other CB I’ve seen do that Is Atkinson.

[GrahamC]

5 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I don’t think we will get them.  I think it is more of Tanner and Atkinson types, brought forward from the summer plan.  It will give them 6 months to embed, unlike Tanner and Atkinson who’ve been thrown in immediately.  Okay more expectation of Atkinson than Tanner, but in Tanner’s case, it shows you can pluck someone from Lg2 that is capable of playing this level.  In the past “one for the future” was rarely seen for a good while (if at all).

Unless we can persuade someone to take Palmer, Dasilva or possibly even Wells off our hands, I’d be surprised if we even signed 2.

What is the point? We are a game away from the halfway stage & are on course for 54/55 points, far too many to see us involved in a relegation scrap. Derby & Barnsley look like they have gone already & Peterborough have only avoided defeat away from home once so far.

Pearson is blooding a lot of young players, Scott, Benarous plus the likes of Semenyo, HNM, Atkinson, Pring & Tanner. Conway is back now, too.

Loans are of little purpose in our current situation unless there is the possibility of making them permanent, why develop someone else’s player rather than ours?

Terrible time to buy too, as clubs try to hold you to ransom.

Recent results have alleviated the pressure so I won’t be at all surprised if it is far quieter than predicted.

Edited December 13, 2021 by GrahamC

[Supersonic Robin]

43 minutes ago, bcfc01 said:

Disagree re Kalas.

He is quite capable of passing out from the back and also quite capable of making runs with the at his feet ball from inside our half to halfway inside the opposition half no problem.

First and foremost though, he loves defending and chucking himself in front of shots etc. 

 

19 minutes ago, Robbored said:

i can’t ever recall seeing Kalas do a Webster and bring the ball out of defence. The only other CB I’ve seen do that Is Atkinson.

It's about the level to which you can do it I suppose - it's not a binary case of "can" or "can't".

Is Kalas at Webster's level of playing out from the back? No.

Is Kalas reasonably capable with the ball at his feet and able to be part of a Championship defence that plays out from the back? Absolutely, IMO

[Numero Uno]

9 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Yep, agree.  Some teams use their keeper to maintain possession, we use ours to boot it long (in the main).  Not helped by Bentley retreating whilst he waits for the ball to get there, forcing him deeper…and sometimes leading to that sliced, high clearance which doesn’t get to the h-w line.  If he actually received the ball on his 18 yard box, rather than deep in his box then he probably creates a short passing option too.

 

Without costing us a shed load of goals Bentley's form has been very patchy this season. He doesn't have any GENUINE competition for his place and it's showing imo. Because if Max was genuine competition he might well have been playing weeks ago.

[Davefevs]

11 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Without costing us a shed load of goals Bentley's form has been very patchy this season. He doesn't have any GENUINE competition for his place and it's showing imo. Because if Max was genuine competition he might well have been playing weeks ago.

Totally agree.

[bcfc01]

46 minutes ago, Robbored said:

i can’t ever recall seeing Kalas do a Webster and bring the ball out of defence. The only other CB I’ve seen do that Is Atkinson.

Can't remember if it was Derby or Stoke (can't be arsed to look it up) where he collected the ball inside our half and beat a couple of players for pace before passing it wide well inside the opposition half.  Not for the first time either.

He's more than capable imo.

[The Bard]

17 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Without costing us a shed load of goals Bentley's form has been very patchy this season. He doesn't have any GENUINE competition for his place and it's showing imo. Because if Max was genuine competition he might well have been playing weeks ago.

Being captain has made this problem worse.  I think O Leary is an excellent keeper but he is hampered as Bentley would have to get injured or have a calamitous loss of form to be dropped.

[Numero Uno]

Just now, The Bard said:

Being captain has made this problem worse.  I think O Leary is an excellent keeper but he is hampered as Bentley would have to get injured or have a calamitous loss of form to be dropped.

Can't argue with the first sentence. Goalkeeper should never be Captain of any side, end of story. You have more than enough vocalising to do in 90 minutes as a Keeper without worrying about captaining the side. How good is O'Leary? Difficult to tell because he doesn't seem to have the trust of anyone.

[Robbored]

32 minutes ago, Supersonic Robin said:

 

It's about the level to which you can do it I suppose - it's not a binary case of "can" or "can't".

Is Kalas at Webster's level of playing out from the back? No.

Is Kalas reasonably capable with the ball at his feet and able to be part of a Championship defence that plays out from the back? Absolutely, IMO

Of course Kalas is a very capable CB but he’s not the type who carries the ball into the opposition half as Webster did and more recently as Atkinson has - In no way am I criticising Kalas. 

[1960maaan]

1 hour ago, JonDolman said:

I think we have players that are very capable of bringing the ball out the back.

I agree. I think it's further forward that the problem starts. Vyner is good coming out from the back, Atkinson and Kalas too, but the options they have once they step past the press are quite often poor at times. It's better with Semenyo, James and Williams, but we can be static and quite passive at times. For me it's as much the player without the ball as the man on it.

45 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Without costing us a shed load of goals Bentley's form has been very patchy this season. He doesn't have any GENUINE competition for his place and it's showing imo. Because if Max was genuine competition he might well have been playing weeks ago.

It's a strange situation. Max has never let us down, that game at Villa was mad, he was superb . If he's ever thrown in I never worry, but I wouldn't call it a real challenge. 
I'd hate to lose him, but I think I'd also like him to get a loan for 6 months at a good level , just to see how good he really is. 

[PHILINFRANCE]

1 hour ago, GrahamC said:

 

What is the point? We are a game away from the halfway stage & are on course for 54/55 points, far too many to see us involved in a relegation scrap. Derby & Barnsley look like they have gone already & Peterborough have only avoided defeat away from home once so far.

Pearson is blooding a lot of young players, Scott, Benarous plus the likes of Semenyo, HNM, Atkinson, Pring & Tanner. Conway is back now, too.

Loans are of little purpose in our current situation unless there is the possibility of making them permanent, why develop someone else’s player rather than ours? Terrible time to buy too, as clubs try to hold you to ransom.

 

I agree entirely.

We must surely be free from any threat of relegation, so why waste money on loans unless:

1. They are on loan with a realistic intention to purchase (and improve) for next season, or

2. Heaven forbid, results in the next few games suggest there might be just an outside chance of a play off spot. 

[1960maaan]

53 minutes ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

I agree entirely.

We must surely be free from any threat of relegation, I doubt I'm the only one that feels it's way too early to be saying things like this. so why waste money on loans unless:  Agree

1. They are on loan with a realistic intention to purchase (and improve) for next season, Yep, agree again or

2. Heaven forbid, results in the next few games suggest there might be just an outside chance of a play off spot. 

And you seem to have had that , one too many with that last bit 

 

[BS4 on Tour...]

16 hours ago, Numero Uno said:

Can't argue with the first sentence. Goalkeeper should never be Captain of any side, end of story. You have more than enough vocalising to do in 90 minutes as a Keeper without worrying about captaining the side.

Italy and France both won the World Cup with a goalkeeper as their captain ...

[Numero Uno]

3 hours ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Italy and France both won the World Cup with a goalkeeper as their captain ...

Fair enough. To make it simple for everyone Bentley should not be Captain of our side end of story, it's either affecting his game or if not then his "unaffected" performances have simply not been good enough to merit being given the armband, nowhere near it. Btw I can't see us winning four games in a row anytime soon let alone a World Cup, three in a row will be a stretch tbh.

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

Im having a meltdown.

If we weren't so unlucky , had such a bad ref, denied a penalty(s) and hadnt had to compete with Barnsley's parachute payments then....

we'd still be crap, over a year and never two games won in a row. Terrible management, terrible coaching.

My opinion- get over it.

[GrahamC]

Just now, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

Im having a meltdown.

If we weren't so unlucky , had such a bad ref, denied a penalty(s) and hadnt had to compete with Barnsley's parachute payments then....

we'd still be crap, over a year and never two games won in a row. Terrible management, terrible coaching.

My opinion- get over it.

Think we know by now, you & a few others post it all the time.

[David Brent]

2 minutes ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

Im having a meltdown.

If we weren't so unlucky , had such a bad ref, denied a penalty(s) and hadnt had to compete with Barnsley's parachute payments then....

we'd still be crap, over a year and never two games won in a row. Terrible management, terrible coaching.

My opinion- get over it.

Nobody cares 

[tin]

3 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Think we know by now, you & a few others post it all the time.

Spot on. We have a divine right to win every game at this level, even with an unbalanced inexperienced side. Great logic, that.