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Pearson & Fleming : OUT


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1 hour ago, tin said:

When was the last time we won at Barnsley, Marina? I’m pretty sure every other manager in the last decade has failed to do that. 

I don’t know what your expectations are, but our inconsistencies are as clear as the lack of balance in our squad.

We have no option but to wait it out until the summer at which point we simply must strengthen. 

We also hadn’t lost there for quite a long time! 

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1 hour ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

That’s all very loyal, but your last paragraph is the interesting one.  When I look at what Steve Cooper has done at Forest it becomes only too clear that there are managers out there that can have a transformative effect on a club.  Of course we can’t know whether another manager might have done better, but it is hard to believe that any other manager would have done much worse.  What we saw last night is a team that appeared in the space of a few days to have forgotten the basics, and that is very worrying indeed.  Pearson has had over a year now, and yet the state of play on the field remains much the same: inconsistent, frequently error-riddled and at times downright embarrassing.  I think it’s absolutely fair that people should question where we’re going.  Is Pearson the right man to take us forward?  I really, really don’t know.

I love this Forest comparison.

the players there are much better than our squad. Who, of our players makes it into that Forest team?

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5 minutes ago, Super said:

Why does Fleming need to go as well? Harsh.

I think it's fair that if the manager gets the Spanish, his support staff should as well.

If a good assistant is part of the success, then they are also part of the failure.

(Holden anyone?)

Not saying that either should go, just balancing the point you make.

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4 minutes ago, Bristol Rob said:

Wasn't really paying attention to the commentary on Sky last night, but did they say that the average ago of our team was higher than that of the Barnsley side?

(Only mentioning it, as it might be a case of too many youth alongside too many who might not have the legs they once did and could this be part of the issue).

Yeah that was right.

It's been mentioned before ( @Davefevswill have the stats) but the average age of our squad masks that the bulk of it is at either end of the age spectrum, so it meets somewhere in the middle. We have very few, as in less than half a dozen, in the 'prime' of their career between about 25-29, and 2 of those are goalkeepers.

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10 hours ago, Fordy62 said:

But the very nature of the youngsters is that they’re inconsistent. We shouldn’t be surprised. 

Tonight was a very inexperienced team. The more inexperienced performers you have, the more likely you are to be inconsistent. 

The sky commentator pointed out that Barnsley had a very young team whereas ours was about average for the Championship. I think he said their average age was 24 and ours 27. Not fact checked that myself. 

I appreciate we have a young/old age disttribution which affects the average. However, we certainly can't claim inconsistency due to it being a team full of youngsters. 

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18 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Why are we seeing posters say Atkinson is “clearly not good enough”?  Does he first group of 15 games count for nothing? 

He’s come back into a team shipping goals, played the majority of last night’s game at LB, and is primarily used to playing in a back 4.

I thought he was ok last night, I thought he was rusty first half Saturday, then did ok.  Was he so bad in the last 2 games?

He’s good enough for this level, he proved it earlier this season.

There’s huge knee jerk stuff going on, I saw one post slagging off Tommy Conway, FFS.

I probably should take my own advice here but there is a total lack of perspective after a defeat.

Atkinson was also asked to play LB for nearly an hour last night, whether that was needs must, a test of character or odd, is subjective of course.

Personally I’d have brought Vyner on as our second sub & given him a go at RB, allowing Dasilva & Atkinson to both play in their natural positions.

How that would have gone down on here I think I can guess..

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11 minutes ago, Bristol Rob said:

Wasn't really paying attention to the commentary on Sky last night, but did they say that the average ago of our team was higher than that of the Barnsley side?

(Only mentioning it, as it might be a case of too many youth alongside too many who might not have the legs they once did and could this be part of the issue).

Probably, though as has been pointed out before we have virtually no one in the sweet spot of 26-29, just Bentley last night.

Klose & Martin bump it up significantly as both are 33.

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2 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

 

Personally I’d have brought Vyner on as our second sub & given him a go at RB, allowing Dasilva & Atkinson to both play in their natural positions.

How that would have gone down on here I think I can guess..

Don't think Pearson rates him. Like Palmer, if he can't get a sniff when we're this poor he's clearly on his way out.

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4 minutes ago, robin_unreliant said:

The sky commentator pointed out that Barnsley had a very young team whereas ours was about average for the Championship. I think he said their average age was 24 and ours 27. Not fact checked that myself. 

I appreciate we have a young/old age disttribution which affects the average. However, we certainly can't claim inconsistency due to it being a team full of youngsters. 

So that is probably one of the big issues. The kids are too young and the seniors too old. 

And the players in between cost a fortune that we don't have.

Right, with the squad sorted out, I'll crack on with my real job! 👌 

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10 hours ago, Davefevs said:

It’s fine to question whoever you want.

Out of interest, how do you explain tonight’s performance when comparing against Saturday’s?  What causes the difference, because Saturday was ok, tonight was very poor?

Ok, Dave ( and FYI @GrahamC )- how do you explain Blackburn ( where I felt we were incredibly lucky - missed pen and a moment of sheer class as a result of a massive miss kick) against the results and much of the performance at Barnsley,Birmingham, Forest and Coventry?

We got lucky (overall) against Blackburn but it was just one win amongst 5 losses.

Another capitulation and a pattern that seems to mirror the same pattern at the end of last season. 

Every two steps forward is matched with two steps back.  There are flashes of progress and hope which are continually extinguished within a game or two and then same old same old.

How do you explain that since Nige joined us we have NEVER won two games in a row in over a year across two part seasons. How do you explain that Nigel Pearson is seemingly incapable of coaching his defence? 

How do you explain the fact that we have conceded 67 goals so far this season and only two teams have conceded more- Reading and Peterborough (73 & 72)?

How do you explain that in  50 NP league games and two transfer windows - 28 are losses and 10 are draws?

How do explain that he has beaten or matched some of the worst records in our club's history?

If it was solely about the players then we would already be in L1 or preparing for it. For some. criticism of Nige is seen as just an agenda not a rational opinion. Clearly James Piercy and Matt Withers have a similar agenda?

I'm perfectly aware that mine is not a populist opinion but I say it as I see it. It's not a popularity contest although, sadly, it is for some!

And for those who love to post misinformation- the last time I posted deeply critical comments about NP was November 6th 2021 - this very thread. I give credit where credit is due.

 

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2 minutes ago, Northern Red said:

Yeah that was right.

It's been mentioned before ( @Davefevswill have the stats) but the average age of our squad masks that the bulk of it is at either end of the age spectrum, so it meets somewhere in the middle. We have very few, as in less than half a dozen, in the 'prime' of their career between about 25-29, and 2 of those are goalkeepers.

A very good point...

An imbalance that needs correcting.

Trouble is any player in that 25-29 sweet spot whom is doing the business at this level - or clearly capable of doing so wont be cheep,or even free.

Some clever recruitment & who knows even a spot of scouting is What's required..

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3 minutes ago, KegCity said:

Don't think Pearson rates him. Like Palmer, if he can't get a sniff when we're this poor he's clearly on his way out.

Agree, but he was on the bench, is versatile & has an availability record few can match.

I actually think he took the opportunity to have a longer look at Cundy instead, he could easily have been taken off after being at least partially at fault for both goals, but who is out of contract this summer & he needs to make a decision on.

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10 minutes ago, Bristol Oil Services said:

Let's try: "the squad he inherited is rubbish. The squad he inherited is rubbish. The squad he inherited is rubbish." Your go ....

The. squab he inherited is rubbish....

 

Close.

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10 minutes ago, Bristol Oil Services said:

Let's try: "the squad he inherited is rubbish. The squad he inherited is rubbish. The squad he inherited is rubbish." Your go ....

Is the squad that bad?  Go through each player and they are either very good youngsters or seasoned pros that have in the past show a lot better than they are producing now.  Drop most of our players into top half of the table teams and they will look a lot better.  Whether we like it or not, players need to be (a) motivated, (b) organised and (c) working to a plan.   The responsibility for all of those things come down to the manager.  
 

The jury has to still be out on Pearson as we need to be completely sure that a manager isn’t up to it before we get rid of them. I am sure this season will fade out like last season but he has then got to start next season showing signs of improvement, even if that is just a more solid defence 

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2 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

Is the squad that bad?  Go through each player and they are either very good youngsters or seasoned pros that have in the past show a lot better than they are producing now.  Drop most of our players into top half of the table teams and they will look a lot better.  Whether we like it or not, players need to be (a) motivated, (b) organised and (c) working to a plan.   The responsibility for all of those things come down to the manager.  
 

The jury has to still be out on Pearson as we need to be completely sure that a manager isn’t up to it before we get rid of them. I am sure this season will fade out like last season but he has then got to start next season showing signs of improvement, even if that is just a more solid defence 

Like who? Weimann is class, obviously the youngsters are too. Joe Williams is made of quavers so barely counts at this point. Bentley is a good keeper. After that you're looking at middle of the road (at best) championship players. If you've got a squad made of average players, with some quality and some dross sprinkled in, and they're low on confidence with little leadership, they're going to struggle.

By no means have we got a League One squad, but with a few exceptions either way we've got a bottom end of average squad and they are where you'd expect them to be. Don't think anyone other than those I've named starts for many clubs above us.

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1 minute ago, KegCity said:

Like who? Weimann is class, obviously the youngsters are too. Joe Williams is made of quavers so barely counts at this point. Bentley is a good keeper. After that you're looking at middle of the road (at best) championship players. If you've got a squad made of average players, with some quality and some dross sprinkled in, and they're low on confidence with little leadership, they're going to struggle.

By no means have we got a League One squad, but with a few exceptions either way we've got a bottom end of average squad and they are where you'd expect them to be. Don't think anyone other than those I've named starts for many clubs above us.

Kalas has been promoted twice out of this division.  
James was very good last season for Coventry and has always played well in this division 

Put Dasilva in a good passing team and he would definitely not look out of place

Baker is a good defender at this level and Pearson signed him. 

We then have/have had Simpson and King. Pearson signings. 
 

Scott, Semenyo and Massengo are all highly rated youngsters who have all looked excellent at points this season. Put them in a structured team and they’d be more consistent. 
 

Pearson has signed Atkinson, Tanner, Simpson, King, Klose, James, Weimann and Baker.  If you only rate one of them as a top half player then yo my must be questioning Pearsons transfer record. 

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I think Nige is lucky he’s at a club which ‘generally’ gives managers time, as his results record so far is nothing short of appalling based on how long he’s been here.  

Nearly all clubs have financial problems at the moment, and I know we are in a transition, but as a minimum I’d expect him to have gone back to basics at some point in the last year with the players he has at his disposal.

It’s funny that when we have a once in a blue moon good performance everyone is waxing lyrical about the players, young and old, but after another 2 defeats it seems the players are the problem and Nigel isn’t cause his hands are tied.  I don’t buy it.

I made this comparison a few months back (and got grief), but Barton came into Rovers a year ago as well, and also took them down, then started terribly after recruiting what looked like pretty poor players on paper (which were widely mocked on here I’m sure) and is now turning things around and they are on fire at the moment.  

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3 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

Kalas has been promoted twice out of this division.  
James was very good last season for Coventry and has always played well in this division 

Put Dasilva in a good passing team and he would definitely not look out of place

Baker is a good defender at this level and Pearson signed him. 

We then have/have had Simpson and King. Pearson signings. 
 

Scott, Semenyo and Massengo are all highly rated youngsters who have all looked excellent at points this season. Put them in a structured team and they’d be more consistent. 
 

Pearson has signed Atkinson, Tanner, Simpson, King, Klose, James, Weimann and Baker.  If you only rate one of them as a top half player then yo my must be questioning Pearsons transfer record. 

I have to agree. I'm not really sure what we are missing, I think it's balance? Maybe it's training too?

We have leaders / experienced professionals in Bentley, Kalas, Klose, James, Martin, Weimann. So I'd not expect the mentality to be this poor. Something is fundamentally wrong when we are guaranteed to lose after a win, as well as not being able to defend.

I don't understand how we haven't improved our defence, we have some good players on paper. Experienced players. Nige is an ex CB, so is Fleming. Why do we play like they've only been managing the team for 1 month?

We do have round pegs square holes, right back jumps out as an obvious one, plus our lack of defensive midfielders and wingers.

But the training is becoming inexcusable. I have no clue what they are doing week on week to improve that.

 

 

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Just now, And Its Smith said:

Kalas has been promoted twice out of this division.  
James was very good last season for Coventry and has always played well in this division 

Put Dasilva in a good passing team and he would definitely not look out of place

Baker is a good defender at this level and Pearson signed him. 

We then have/have had Simpson and King. Pearson signings. 
 

Scott, Semenyo and Massengo are all highly rated youngsters who have all looked excellent at points this season. Put them in a structured team and they’d be more consistent. 
 

Pearson has signed Atkinson, Tanner, Simpson, King, Klose, James, Weimann and Baker.  If you only rate one of them as a top half player then yo my must be questioning Pearsons transfer record. 

Kalas got promoted twice as a right back and with 20/20 hindsight was carried by Webster. Good player absolutely, doesn't suit our needs. He's been average to poor since Webster left for me, certainly not justified his transfer fee and wages. James is a tidy player but again pretty middle of the road for me, I wouldn't want him starting every week but that's a controversial opinion. Dasilva is ok, again not done a lot since his loan spell here. Baker is retiring so pretty irrelevant.

Simpson and King aren't long term and surely weren't brought in to play regularly. Again, right now they're average championship players who I can't see getting many minutes for anyone in the league.

Yes I mentioned the youngsters. I have said several times they would do better in a better team, and the same can be said for Atkinson. The point being, as you've nearly said but not quite been able to, they're surrounded by players who aren't good enough to bring the best out of them.

Atkinson and Tanner certainly have the potential to be top players in a few years time. Right now they're again pretty average. So no I don't question Pearson's transfer record as I am able to understand context. I have issue with his tactical decisions, but think recruitment is one area he's done reasonably well in given the circumstances.

 

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1 minute ago, Selred said:

I have to agree. I'm not really sure what we are missing, I think it's balance? Maybe it's training too?

We have leaders / experienced professionals in Bentley, Kalas, Klose, James, Martin, Weimann. So I'd not expect the mentality to be this poor. Something is fundamentally wrong when we are guaranteed to lose after a win, as well as not being able to defend.

I don't understand how we haven't improved our defence, we have some good players on paper. Experienced players. Nige is an ex CB, so is Fleming. Why do we play like they've only been managing the team for 1 month?

We do have round pegs square holes, right back jumps out as an obvious one, plus our lack of defensive midfielders and wingers.

But the training is becoming inexcusable. I have no clue what they are doing week on week to improve that.

 

 

A lot of it can come back on Pearson

We don’t have a right back…he signed Simpson

We don’t have a defensive midfielder…he signed James and King. If we needed one and they arent one then why didn’t he sign one?! 

It’s a shame how far standards have dropped amongst fans as well.  Whenever we play okay we see comments of ‘brilliant performance’ when in reality it’s just not been awful.  Pearson gets credit for identifying the issues from a lot of fans but those fans don’t then judge him on putting it right it seems.

 

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3 minutes ago, Selred said:

I have to agree. I'm not really sure what we are missing, I think it's balance? Maybe it's training too?

We have leaders / experienced professionals in Bentley, Kalas, Klose, James, Martin, Weimann. So I'd not expect the mentality to be this poor. Something is fundamentally wrong when we are guaranteed to lose after a win, as well as not being able to defend.

I don't understand how we haven't improved our defence, we have some good players on paper. Experienced players. Nige is an ex CB, so is Fleming. Why do we play like they've only been managing the team for 1 month?

We do have round pegs square holes, right back jumps out as an obvious one, plus our lack of defensive midfielders and wingers.

But the training is becoming inexcusable. I have no clue what they are doing week on week to improve that.

 

 

Kalas and Bentley aren't leaders. Not a knock as not everybody is, but they aren't. Neither have suited the captaincy role. Klose I can't comment on as I've not seen enough of him but neither Martin or Weimann have appeared particularly vocal, but both lead by example.

Agree about training though. How have we not fixed the inability to mark a player in nearly 3 years now?

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2 minutes ago, KegCity said:

Kalas got promoted twice as a right back and with 20/20 hindsight was carried by Webster. Good player absolutely, doesn't suit our needs. He's been average to poor since Webster left for me, certainly not justified his transfer fee and wages. James is a tidy player but again pretty middle of the road for me, I wouldn't want him starting every week but that's a controversial opinion. Dasilva is ok, again not done a lot since his loan spell here. Baker is retiring so pretty irrelevant.

Simpson and King aren't long term and surely weren't brought in to play regularly. Again, right now they're average championship players who I can't see getting many minutes for anyone in the league.

Yes I mentioned the youngsters. I have said several times they would do better in a better team, and the same can be said for Atkinson. The point being, as you've nearly said but not quite been able to, they're surrounded by players who aren't good enough to bring the best out of them.

Atkinson and Tanner certainly have the potential to be top players in a few years time. Right now they're again pretty average. So no I don't question Pearson's transfer record as I am able to understand context. I have issue with his tactical decisions, but think recruitment is one area he's done reasonably well in given the circumstances.

 

I disagree on Kalas.  Think it was Fulham where he played a decent amount at centre back and looks good for his country.  Regardless, if we need a right back and Kalas is a right back why doesn’t he play there?  
 

I am surprised on your view on transfers. He’s either signed players where the jury is out or players that haven’t improved us.  James is a key signing and you don’t think he should be starting every game. Pearson signed him to start every game. 
 

 

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1 minute ago, And Its Smith said:

I disagree on Kalas.  Think it was Fulham where he played a decent amount at centre back and looks good for his country.  Regardless, if we need a right back and Kalas is a right back why doesn’t he play there?  
 

I am surprised on your view on transfers. He’s either signed players where the jury is out or players that haven’t improved us.  James is a key signing and you don’t think he should be starting every game. Pearson signed him to start every game. 
 

 

Kalas made the same mistakes he does every week for us at the Euros. Absolutely calamitous from set pieces but he had a centre back to talk him through positioning which he doesn't have here. I don't know why he doesn't play right back, I'm not Pearson.

My opinion on James is based off watching him, I think he suits having Massengo next to him as he can provide the energy and ability to drive the ball forward which James doesn't have. For whatever reason we don't see this combination too often and when Massengo is out of form we don't have someone else who can bring those qualities. Bring in another box to box midfielder and I'm more comfortable with James. I clearly don't know what I'm talking about as nobody agrees with me but Williams seems like a defensive midfielder, not a box to box one. Very little dynamism in his game aside from some quick feet whilst he breaks up play really well.

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2 hours ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

That’s all very loyal, but your last paragraph is the interesting one.  When I look at what Steve Cooper has done at Forest it becomes only too clear that there are managers out there that can have a transformative effect on a club.  Of course we can’t know whether another manager might have done better, but it is hard to believe that any other manager would have done much worse.  What we saw last night is a team that appeared in the space of a few days to have forgotten the basics, and that is very worrying indeed.  Pearson has had over a year now, and yet the state of play on the field remains much the same: inconsistent, frequently error-riddled and at times downright embarrassing.  I think it’s absolutely fair that people should question where we’re going.  Is Pearson the right man to take us forward?  I really, really don’t know.

Didn’t realise we had the same players as Forest.

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Ultimately we need 5-6 players minimum in the summer.

Can see one of HNM, Semenyo, or Scott on their way out. Added to that I can't see Martin, O'Dowda among others getting new deals, and we have a small enough squad already.

Will be an interesting summer I reckon. Can see us trying to shift also the likes of Kalas and Wells (wages) for smaller fees than expected.

I reckon NP may try and completely clear the deck if possible, Bakinson was just the start.

 

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18 minutes ago, KegCity said:

Kalas made the same mistakes he does every week for us at the Euros. Absolutely calamitous from set pieces but he had a centre back to talk him through positioning which he doesn't have here. I don't know why he doesn't play right back, I'm not Pearson.

My opinion on James is based off watching him, I think he suits having Massengo next to him as he can provide the energy and ability to drive the ball forward which James doesn't have. For whatever reason we don't see this combination too often and when Massengo is out of form we don't have someone else who can bring those qualities. Bring in another box to box midfielder and I'm more comfortable with James. I clearly don't know what I'm talking about as nobody agrees with me but Williams seems like a defensive midfielder, not a box to box one. Very little dynamism in his game aside from some quick feet whilst he breaks up play really well.

What’s your overall view on Pearson then as you seem to disagree with a lot of his decision?

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1 hour ago, And Its Smith said:

I’ve not said it should be sorted short term but I don’t think it’s mad to expect some little bits of progress. He knows the problem but so far there’s no sign he can make even a modicum of difference to it.  

We have 2 defenders and coach and manager, 3 giants in a back 3 and we still can't defend a corner. Sorry but the least we have the right to expect is organisation at set pieces. Talking of set pieces, when was the last time we saw something that looked vaguely organised. Each week we see clear evidence of rehearsed moves from other teams but we just lump it in and hope for the best.

For me NP is just too arrogant.

How can you take on such a superior attitude when the press, when the team under your leadership for 18 months is failing on just about every front. Humble is clearly not a word he understands. Are the players from Barnsley better than ours. I think not. They are just more committed, better organised and playing for the manager.

He holds grudges for too long. Is it really better to change the whole team than play Vyner at fullback

Does Wells not at least deserve a game instead of Martin who at times can hardly raise a trot. I guess whilst we have Bentley in goal who refuses to play from the back we have to keep Martin in.

Should Palmer be given a chance to put himself in the window and increase his value.

He doesn't like loan players but week after week we face teams who make good use of the loan system

His tactics are out of history and too easy to predict. Teams see our weakness and adapt to maximise the affect.

The team seems utterly confused by his tactics and changes during the game.

He has failed to create a good team spirit because he always blames the players and never himself.

Have we really moved on since LJ? In recent times our performances seem very similar to me.

Do we really trust NP with the funds we may get from selling our crown jewels. Based on the Leicester trio I think not.

After this amount of time I think we should at least see a well organised team understanding how to set up and being behind the manager. Sorry but I am just not seeing this.

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