Ok, so what happens next?

[Phileas Fogg]

No idea what I’d do if I was Lansdown. I understand we’re a work in progress and need time - but if I’m being 100% honest, Pearson’s health issues are a worry for me.

Football management is a tough job, it should only be undertaken by someone who’s fit - physically and mentally - for the task.

I thought he was a fantastic appointment, but the lack of tangible improvement is clear. I can’t think of one area we’ve really improved in. I would’ve expected a Pearson team, regardless of our personnel, to be organised, physical and tough to beat. We’re none of those things. 

I’d persevere for the time being, but in the short term results need to improve urgently. International break may have come at the right time.

Edited November 7, 2021 by Phileas Fogg

[Sturgess]

Just now, Roger Red Hat said:

Eh?

Really?! 
 

Yes, past highs. You know, challenging for promotion, cup runs… it was in our grasp.

Does that help?

[cityloyal473]

5 minutes ago, shelts said:

I like Pearson and thought it was a great appointment of a manager who was experienced and had been to the promise land of the Prem.  The product on the pitch is even worse than the last year old LJ and the time we had under Holden. At times this season I saw things that led me to believe that we where starting to improve . That has now vanished and our players have relapsed back to the relegation form we showed last season . I don’t believe this is the worst group of players we’ve ever had , they can play a bit abut the table doesn’t lie. 
It’s a massive task and if I’m being honest I’m leaning toward the boss is too old school and the players don’t like it . I’m not  sure how long i can keep watching these wretched performances. 

Thats exactly how I see things. Something has to give at some point and it won't be the players getting fired. 

[Red-Robbo]

I have reached a point where I wouldn't care if Pearson departs. I have lost faith in his judgement and think he may not be the manager he was either because of age/illness or because he doesn't have the right coaching team around him. He still talks the talk, but he isn't walking the walk and some things really can be laid at his door - not Lansdown, not previous employees, not bad luck. He does need to bring better players in, but he isn't getting the best out of those he has. 

HOWEVER, I doubt Pearson will leave  and in those circumstances I think we need to make the best of things with some backroom expertise brought in and Nigel already focusing on who he wants to bring in for January, perhaps using loans for once.

If James and, in particular, Williams are fit after the break, we may arrest the run of losses. We still won't be much good, but we might at least have a midfield not bypassed by anyone with attacking intent. My worries are that Williams might return from this latest set back, not the player he could be. We've seen it before - players nervous they will re-injure themselves, who are not as committed as they were before. 

[S_C]

When the club posted about Pearson’s health issues pre-Coventry the thought was ‘there could be more in this.’ Not in some dramatic cover-up fashion, the thought wasn’t that relationships had broken down and a change of direction was imminent, but it was a noteworthy development given the circumstances we find ourselves in. I hope and am sure it goes without saying but, first and absolutely foremost, get well soon, Nigel.

This season is a slog. It’s a slog, it’s going to be a slog, it was always going to be a slog.

Pearson is a determined, tough, fighter who, one imagines, is highly unlikely to put his hands up and say ‘You know what, I’m not sure I can achieve what I told you I could.’ What I don’t think he is, however, is a fantasist.

Whilst the conspiracy theories should be put to bed Pearson’s health cannot be ignored given our plight. Crass, perhaps, but it presents both parties with a window of opportunity to have a frank assessment of the situation, knowing there’s a face saving easy out if doubt is setting in for one or both.

I’m sure it’s been said that much of what Pearson put in place at Leicester, which I think is what we all cling to, provided the springboard for what was to come. The idea that if Pearson left we’d automatically see Rennie, for example, leave, doesn’t hold (unless there’s something contractually I’m unaware of). However even if it did, the bottom line is that the on-pitch product is currently unacceptable. That is the key. It is unacceptable. It isn’t bad, or poor, or a work in progress, or frustrating, or almost, or not quite, it is unacceptable.

Survival was always the aim this season but, personally, I felt (and feel) that we had enough about us to be comfortable. Bumps on the way, moments of doubt, but not needing results with five games left etc. Not lacking structure, organisation and mentality. Not wilting like a wet paper bag in conceding last minute goals as standard. Let's be fair, Barnsley deserved at least a point. 12th-16th with foundations in place was my expectation. I think that’s both fair and realistic. Early season signs suggested that was about right.

The worry, and it’s a huge worry, is contrary to what many will tell you the sprouts of life were there. We played some good stuff at times, periods of 20 or so minutes when we were hammering down the door but not getting over the line. Blimey I still maintain that we were doing fine until James came off vs Birmingham, though the shambolic capitulation rightly overshadowed that. It is the manner and speed in which we’ve gone backward from showing that promise that concerns. I haven’t trawled stats/line-ups etc. and I actually think that Wells has done ok in the games I’ve seen him, he looks willing, which is a start, but we seemed to make a jump to two strikers when we weren’t ready for it as a unit. We need to understand where we are as a club. We need to play 4-4-1-1 with Martin upfront, Weimann and Massengo covering ground and some solid protection in-front of a struggling back four. If it means drawing at home then so be it, we’ll still win enough to be fine, but we absolutely have to stop being such a soft touch.

Pearson knows this I’m sure, he clearly knows more about football, and tactics, and managing players than I. But the problem with the stern, tough-guy persona is that it wears thin very quickly. Poor performance, ‘not good enough, buck your ideas up’, poor performance, ‘not good enough, buck your ideas up’, poor performance, ‘here he goes again..’ Clearly I have no idea what goes on in that dressing room but the product on the pitch is currently showing a group of players who are not responding to whatever is being said/trained. Perhaps he’s gone too heavy, made it clear change is coming in January. Perhaps some of his decisions haven’t sat well - Tanner sub? Palmer? But as much as they might not like to think it players can be a fragile bunch, their ego’s lead them, it doesn’t take many questionable decisions (questionable, not wrong) for doubt to creep in.

What next?

The club and Pearson have a blunt, honest, discussion about where they both are and where we are as a club. We go back to basics on the pitch. If we haven’t taken steps forward by full time of Hull 11th December I think we should conclude it isn’t working and, begrudgingly, change is needed. Whether that change is Pearson leaving the club entirely is another question, and I appreciate he would hugely benefit (in theory) from another window, but if performances haven’t lifted from their current status of, in my mind, unacceptable, then I think you’re accepting you might be relegated and giving him another year at least.

[Johnny Musicworks]

When the team is doing badly too many seek to say the club is a mess but is it ?

We have a great ground, we have a new training ground, we have an academy producing very good young players with a new director. We also have a new CEO, a new assistant coach and compared to most teams are financially stable.

However the team is a mess and we have made plenty of mistakes in recent years on and off the field.We are where many of us expected to be this season but results like yesterday are unacceptable. With the players currently available I don’t think there are many managers who would feel confident in this league. Relegation would be a disaster and now the acid test for Nigel, the CEO and the owners is to buy the time by staying in this league to see the plan progress. 
 

The question now is whether Nigel is physically and mentally up for the challenge and if he is then Richard Gould and recruitment need to prove their worth in January and pull some rabbits out of the hat. Personally I think Nige needs to move upstairs (We need a football man in there as DOF) and bring in a new head coach. 

[Bodiesaffer]

32 minutes ago, cityloyal473 said:

Thats exactly how I see things. Something has to give at some point and it won't be the players getting fired. 

That’s the problem… 

[Swede]

9 hours ago, Davefevs said:

So, the general tone tonight is:

- sack Pearson

What happens next then?  What are the consequences of that action?  What is solved by that action?

Not for me. Sacking him gets us absolutely nowhere.

I believe there are things going on behind the scenes whether that's on the scouting side or moving players on. I think Nige has a clear understanding of the problem and what he needs to do but can't do anything until the transfer window opens.

I do question his motivational skills though, for me that's a real concern.

[johnheadbcfc]

Was bad enough being at the game. Just watched the highlights and my lord the 3rd goal was embarrassing.

[Fuber]

On paper, the best to get something out of this squad, with the current players available, is someone who can run 3atb.

That leaves Chris Wilder or Ryan Lowe.

Will either join us? Unlikely.

[cityloyal473]

19 minutes ago, Fuber said:

On paper, the best to get something out of this squad, with the current players available, is someone who can run 3atb.

That leaves Chris Wilder or Ryan Lowe.

Will either join us? Unlikely.

Wilder just announced by Boro. 

[Fuber]

3 minutes ago, cityloyal473 said:

Wilder just announced by Boro. 

Thats a very good coup for them.

[Slack]

Personally, I think they should use the international break. Take them out of Bristol and get this team work built on. Don't take them anywhere nice just do old school fitness and training. Take away the fancy training facility, make them work and build the team mentality. Every game, there's too many individuals and not working as a team.

Just an idea but the time they had in Loughborough or wherever it was seemed to do a trick even if it lasted only a few games.

[Numero Uno]

24 minutes ago, Slack said:

Personally, I think they should use the international break. Take them out of Bristol and get this team work built on. Don't take them anywhere nice just do old school fitness and training. Take away the fancy training facility, make them work and build the team mentality. Every game, there's too many individuals and not working as a team.

Just an idea but the time they had in Loughborough or wherever it was seemed to do a trick even if it lasted only a few games.

I'd make the bastards train on The Netham............that's about the level of game management they displayed yesterday so let them ******* have it.

[brad blit]

Do people genuinely believe that within this squad there isn’t a decent 11-14 players who should be able to compete at this level? 
 

If no then it’s the Managers Issue 

If yes then it’s previous regime/chairman issue

[Sir Geoff]

I totally agree with what others say about our players being gutless, clueless in possession, out of possession etc. Surely a bang average squad of players can be coached to play in a certain way so that everyone knows their exact role, position on the pitch in relation to where the ball is etc. We have been led to believe that Pearson prefers 442 / 4411 type formation. He has had 8 months to drill this system and style of play in to the players. Yes training becomes boring as you are constantly moving players around into different positions to counter different scenarios, but it can be mighty effective. If everyone is drilled in the same way injuries aren't such an issue because player x fills in and knows exactly what his role is within the structure of the team. Players can then build up partnerships within their area of the pitch, if one midfielder goes forward the other drops in, if one presses the other covers the second press. At the moment we look like 11 individuals that have turned up at Ashton Park and been told ''right lads your'e in today, do your best.''

The first few games of the season we looked reasonably organised and playing to a system even if not very effectively. It actually all went awry after the Cardiff game when Baker was retained at full back, since then we have been switching from one system to another without absolutely no cohesion.

[fairweather]

5 hours ago, aa_bcfc said:

Watford change their manager at the drop of a hat. It doesn’t seem to do them much harm. Conceding 3 goals in 45 minutes against a league 1 team last season, who were down to 10 men is truly laughable and a new low for us. Pearson has had long enough to improve results and has failed to do so. Without a change we’re in league 1 next season. 

Are you suggesting replacing Pearson with Ranieri?…. As if he would take the same team all the way to win the league or something…..

[Gert Mare]

The reality is that Nigel has to work within a very tight budget and yesterday we were missing Baker, Williams, James, Atkinson and King. We cannot afford to be without some of those players because their replacements aren’t as good. We need to win the midfield battles to win the game and yesterday even against 10 men we were chasing shadows. Lots of endeavour but we never put our foot on the ball and tried to slow the tempo, especially after regaining the lead from conceding an awful penalty. There was absolutely no need to push the attacker, no need. The remonstrating afterwards was equally as embarrassing.

Our strikers (whoever they are) have to feed off of scraps. Our only creative outlet yesterday, surprisingly, was Callum O’Dowda who has been heavily criticised in recent times. Down the other side we have no creative threat whatsoever which is why Andy Weimann has to drift wide.

We cannot afford to have injuries with this squad, but yet again we are seeing our most technically gifted players spending time on the treatment table. We seem to be cursed.

What I don’t understand is why we have a young striker in the U23’s banging goals in for fun who apparently isn’t fit enough to get in the box, and yet those that are apparently fit enough aren’t in the box week in week out? Get Britton in FFS, or at least get the kid on the bench. 

If we sacked Pearson it would solve nothing. As someone mentioned before you can sack the polisher but you can’t sack the turd.

We need players gone who either can’t be bothered or who lack in the quality required to compete in the Championship week in week out.

The clear out will take time because until we move some of these players off of the wage bill we cannot bring others in.

This mess was created by Johnson and Ashton. Holden was the fall guy and Pearson is expected to work miracles. He can’t, no-one can. The club cannot continue to haemorrhage money every week. We all knew the mess that Nigel Pearson has inherited and yet still many act surprised and call for his head.

The squad simply isn’t good enough. We have to accept that and be realistic that these players are under contract and will have to go when they are ready to go.

We really need to get the recruitment right longer term and that is where we are desperate for the right sort of investment and talent spotting.
 

 

 

 

[firstdivision]

12 hours ago, Davefevs said:

So, the general tone tonight is:

- sack Pearson

What happens next then?  What are the consequences of that action?  What is solved by that action?

I've been debating this with myself for weeks and weeks (because it's not a new problem - the warning signs have been there for...well, the nearly the whole of his time with the club).

I'm torn between the ruthless part of me - 'yeah, it's so blindingly obvious what we need to do' - and the more pragmatic - 'who would we get? Will we improve a bit once the injured players are back? Can we afford it?' If the answers are: someone credible/no, not much/yes...then, I'm making the change yesterday. I'm surprised at how little impact NP has had, especially defensively. We look so disorganised.

No club can guarantee that a change will work, but this has the feel of something that is not working. So try something different...it's not always the biggest deal people make it out to be (if you can afford it). 

12 hours ago, Davefevs said:

So, the general tone tonight is:

- sack Pearson

What happens next then?  What are the consequences of that action?  What is solved by that action?

 

Edited November 7, 2021 by firstdivision

[maxjak]

For me ........we need to come back after the break and hope that Williams, James   and Semenyo, and possibly Cundy are  fit and ready to go.   Unfortunately because of the size of the squad, our changes are limited, because there ARE certain players who need to be dropped IMHO?    Then we give it 3 or 4 games to see if there is an improvement, and if some of the players have managed grow some cojones over the break?

Quite honestly, if there is no noticeable step up in results and performance, then we seriously need to consider changes?   I really am hoping that does not happen, but if it does, and we look just as bereft and soft as in the last few games, then Pearson will have to go, as we will be in relegation momentum?   I think we will turn it around.......but I would not be betting on it.   The next month will be crucial to our survival, and here's hoping that the squad get their act together and show some pride............and please not continue to embarrass the fanbase with their ineptness?

[Davefevs]

7 hours ago, super slick said:

From my very limited ITK-ness, Nigel Pearson is running every single aspect of the football side. He’s essentially manager and Director of Football.

With his continuing health issues, I wouldn’t be surprised if at some point this season he moves upstairs and a young head coach comes in. 
They were very keen on Russel Martin when Holden got the boot but obviously thought experience was needed.

I agree, he’s doing more than managing the playing side.

If he did move upstairs now(ish) rather than 2 years down the line as I’ve been suggesting you actually keep that bit of continuity going….the manager of the team changes but not the overarching principles that SL and NP have jointly signed up for (assume Gould too).

[Jerseybean]

14 hours ago, bpexile said:

A tough one Dave, I still think he needs time to completely rebuild this team but that time could very likely see us go down.

I can't see anyone turn the tide with this team & the financial restraints in place. Strap yourself in mate.

I’m on this page to. Still believe that NP is well able to rebuild and turn this mess around, given time. I  really hope that his health issues are not going to prevent him continuing.

Nobody IMO can turn this squad into anything more than a poor Championship outfit. We  need a fundamental rebuild and NP has said as much.

Changing the culture and players will take time and we are going to experience much pain and disappointment during the transition.

Many fans will be frustrated and angry but I genuinely see NP as the solution not the problem.

Like you say bpexile strap yourself in.

[Loosey Boy]

1 hour ago, Jerseybean said:

I’m on this page to. Still believe that NP is well able to rebuild and turn this mess around, given time. I  really hope that his health issues are not going to prevent him continuing.

Nobody IMO can turn this squad into anything more than a poor Championship outfit. We  need a fundamental rebuild and NP has said as much.

Changing the culture and players will take time and we are going to experience much pain and disappointment during the transition.

Many fans will be frustrated and angry but I genuinely see NP as the solution not the problem.

Like you say bpexile strap yourself in.

Couldn’t agree more

Give Nige the time and resources and I still believe he will sort us.

Just hope that his illness doesn’t result in him walking away….

[Mr Popodopolous]

12 hours ago, Keepers Ball said:

We were saying that last season. 

Indeed- but we apparently have a better fitness regime now, whereas last season the injuries just kept repeating and recurring.

[BS5_RED]

15 hours ago, Pezo said:

What happens next is we get relegated, no manager is going to change that.

We rebuild in league 1 - get promoted a few years later and in about 6 years we challenge for the playoffs in the championship only to drop away and get relegated again.

History backs you up on this.

 

About 10 years in the top flight, 2 in the bottom.

 

Remaining years spent bobbing around the middle divisions.

[exAtyeoMax]

22 hours ago, S_C said:

When the club posted about Pearson’s health issues pre-Coventry the thought was ‘there could be more in this.’ Not in some dramatic cover-up fashion, the thought wasn’t that relationships had broken down and a change of direction was imminent, but it was a noteworthy development given the circumstances we find ourselves in. I hope and am sure it goes without saying but, first and absolutely foremost, get well soon, Nigel.

This season is a slog. It’s a slog, it’s going to be a slog, it was always going to be a slog.

Pearson is a determined, tough, fighter who, one imagines, is highly unlikely to put his hands up and say ‘You know what, I’m not sure I can achieve what I told you I could.’ What I don’t think he is, however, is a fantasist.

Whilst the conspiracy theories should be put to bed Pearson’s health cannot be ignored given our plight. Crass, perhaps, but it presents both parties with a window of opportunity to have a frank assessment of the situation, knowing there’s a face saving easy out if doubt is setting in for one or both.

I’m sure it’s been said that much of what Pearson put in place at Leicester, which I think is what we all cling to, provided the springboard for what was to come. The idea that if Pearson left we’d automatically see Rennie, for example, leave, doesn’t hold (unless there’s something contractually I’m unaware of). However even if it did, the bottom line is that the on-pitch product is currently unacceptable. That is the key. It is unacceptable. It isn’t bad, or poor, or a work in progress, or frustrating, or almost, or not quite, it is unacceptable.

Survival was always the aim this season but, personally, I felt (and feel) that we had enough about us to be comfortable. Bumps on the way, moments of doubt, but not needing results with five games left etc. Not lacking structure, organisation and mentality. Not wilting like a wet paper bag in conceding last minute goals as standard. Let's be fair, Barnsley deserved at least a point. 12th-16th with foundations in place was my expectation. I think that’s both fair and realistic. Early season signs suggested that was about right.

The worry, and it’s a huge worry, is contrary to what many will tell you the sprouts of life were there. We played some good stuff at times, periods of 20 or so minutes when we were hammering down the door but not getting over the line. Blimey I still maintain that we were doing fine until James came off vs Birmingham, though the shambolic capitulation rightly overshadowed that. It is the manner and speed in which we’ve gone backward from showing that promise that concerns. I haven’t trawled stats/line-ups etc. and I actually think that Wells has done ok in the games I’ve seen him, he looks willing, which is a start, but we seemed to make a jump to two strikers when we weren’t ready for it as a unit. We need to understand where we are as a club. We need to play 4-4-1-1 with Martin upfront, Weimann and Massengo covering ground and some solid protection in-front of a struggling back four. If it means drawing at home then so be it, we’ll still win enough to be fine, but we absolutely have to stop being such a soft touch.

Pearson knows this I’m sure, he clearly knows more about football, and tactics, and managing players than I. But the problem with the stern, tough-guy persona is that it wears thin very quickly. Poor performance, ‘not good enough, buck your ideas up’, poor performance, ‘not good enough, buck your ideas up’, poor performance, ‘here he goes again..’ Clearly I have no idea what goes on in that dressing room but the product on the pitch is currently showing a group of players who are not responding to whatever is being said/trained. Perhaps he’s gone too heavy, made it clear change is coming in January. Perhaps some of his decisions haven’t sat well - Tanner sub? Palmer? But as much as they might not like to think it players can be a fragile bunch, their ego’s lead them, it doesn’t take many questionable decisions (questionable, not wrong) for doubt to creep in.

What next?

The club and Pearson have a blunt, honest, discussion about where they both are and where we are as a club. We go back to basics on the pitch. If we haven’t taken steps forward by full time of Hull 11th December I think we should conclude it isn’t working and, begrudgingly, change is needed. Whether that change is Pearson leaving the club entirely is another question, and I appreciate he would hugely benefit (in theory) from another window, but if performances haven’t lifted from their current status of, in my mind, unacceptable, then I think you’re accepting you might be relegated and giving him another year at least.

I remember last season, Paul Simpson saying in an interview before Nige, that they were finding it more or less impossible to raise morale and motivate the squad.

[AshtonGreat]

1 hour ago, exAtyeoMax said:

I remember last season, Paul Simpson saying in an interview before Nige, that they were finding it more or less impossible to raise morale and motivate the squad.

You would've thought the thousands of pounds they're getting a week might be a motivating factor

[exAtyeoMax]

36 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

You would've thought the thousands of pounds they're getting a week might be a motivating factor

Obviously not. Money isn’t the only motivator in life. Group dynamics must play a part, if a general malaise seeps into a team (or workplace) it’s very hard to shift it.

[GrahamC]

1 hour ago, exAtyeoMax said:

I remember last season, Paul Simpson saying in an interview before Nige, that they were finding it more or less impossible to raise morale and motivate the squad.

Which was (along with finance) a clear factor in NP deciding to release so many.

In some respects (though more still to do, Palmer needs to go for instance) we are at year zero now, the squad is far smaller, cheaper, younger & to some extent, Pearson’s.

After some promising early signs what it currently isn’t though is well enough organised or mentally robust.

[Clutton Caveman]

On 07/11/2021 at 01:36, Selred said:

I’m in 2 minds.

Firstly no one out there excites me and makes me think they can turn this around.

Secondly I think we are going backwards under Pearson. We seem less organised, less drilled, in all areas of the pitch. At the start of the season I saw improvements on last season, however now I’m not. I don’t see what we are doing in training sessions to be honest, do we even train together?

Do I think Pearson is the right man? Each week less so, probably to be honest I’m more against him than pro right now. 
 

Do I know who is / should be the alternative? No. 

I just don't see the passion and commitment from NG. I think he was basically retired when this opportunity came along and was too good to turn down. He has had a long time to work with group and we not gone forward. He says, he doesn't coach and it seems he does not much like being pitch side or talking to the press. So that leaves tactics and motivation. No real NP stamp here. 

Clearly he seems to have some health problems and I have sympathy for that. The current position is full of pressure and even fully fit would be a challenge, if energy levels are down it must seem very hard indeed.

I don't think that NP is a quiter, so he will probably try to soldier on.

Question is: is that right for the club??