Out of contract players

[Jerseybean]

Bristol City have 23 players out of contract over the next 18 months, including Han-Noah Massengo, Tomas Kalas and Dan Bentley, what’s the full picture look like?

Davefevs the stage is yours…

[ExiledAjax]

Given the prevailing narrative regarding the competency of the players, one would think that most would see this as a good opportunity to prune yet more of the squad.

I don't think that will apply to the 3 players that you name here, all of whom should have considerable value in the market.

However, perhaps some others can be allowed to drift onwards?

[Lorenzos Only Goal]

23 minutes ago, Jerseybean said:

Bristol City have 23 players out of contract over the next 18 months, including Han-Noah Massengo, Tomas Kalas and Dan Bentley, what’s the full picture look like?

Davefevs the stage is yours…

They will all be offered new deals in my opinion.  I think there are a few that will see the door. 

[And Its Smith]

Either they sign by 1st July or we need to sell. Cannot afford for anyone to run their contract down again.  Guess it will depend what division we are in next season and how the market continues to go now that fans are back.  Would Kalas get the money he is on here elsewhere for example.  If Massengo has ambition, which I assume he has, he will leave to join a better run club that also has its team playing to a style that suits him 

Edited November 11, 2021 by And Its Smith

[Fordy62]

5 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

Either they sign by 1st July or we need to sell. Cannot afford for anyone to run their contract down again.  Guess it will depend what division we are in next season and how the market continues to go now that fans are back.  Would Kalas get the money he is on here elsewhere for example.  If Massengo has ambition, which I assume he has, he will leave to join a better run club that also has its team playing to a style that suits him 

Of I were any of them, I’m not sure I’d be signing. And that’s really bad for us. 

[Merrick's Marvels]

27 minutes ago, Jerseybean said:

Bristol City have 23 players out of contract over the next 18 months, including Han-Noah Massengo, Tomas Kalas and Dan Bentley, what’s the full picture look like?

Davefevs the stage is yours…

Imo, FFP constraints - and the need to create room for meaningful incomings - will see at least one of those sold.

And if - in 18 months time - we've achieved the necessary overhaul of the squad and stayed in this division and still have Pearson at the helm, I'll be delighted and amazed in equal measure.  

[And Its Smith]

14 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

Of I were any of them, I’m not sure I’d be signing. And that’s really bad for us. 

We are so close to my dream of league one and an average age squad of 20 ! 

[CyderInACan]

Maybe treading on forbidden lawns here, but is Bentley part of the problem rather than the solution? 

[RedRoss]

2 minutes ago, CyderInACan said:

Maybe treading on forbidden lawns here, but is Bentley part of the problem rather than the solution? 

Why do you think that?

[Hampshire reds]

i would think the out of contract players will want to know the situation concening Nigel. With rumours about his health. will he be back everything seems up in   the air.

[Dunc]

45 minutes ago, CyderInACan said:

Maybe treading on forbidden lawns here, but is Bentley part of the problem rather than the solution? 

No... imho from a playing and leadership perspective I think he's fantastic. Can we afford to pay those kinds of wages? If that's the question it's a question for Mr Lansdown, but it appears the direction of travel is towards cheaper players 

[Bris Red]

54 minutes ago, CyderInACan said:

Maybe treading on forbidden lawns here, but is Bentley part of the problem rather than the solution? 

He certainly isn’t the fantastic goalkeeper many on here make him out to be I don’t think, i wouldn’t say he is part of the problem per se but if there is opportunity to cash in on him and get a few million i think we should without hesitation to be honest.

[ExiledAjax]

1 hour ago, CyderInACan said:

Maybe treading on forbidden lawns here, but is Bentley part of the problem rather than the solution? 

I don't think he is either. He's conceding goals at an alarming rate, and has only 1 clean sheet to his name this season, but if we look at the stats he's still maintaining a 70% save rate, which gets him in to the top 10 goalies in the division on that metric (9th out of those who have played at least 10 games), having faced the second highest number of shots on target (81). Of those who have played every minute of the league campaign, only Collins at Barnsley has a better save rate, and it's better than Bentley's by only 0.5%.

Compared to his own past performances 70% is far from his best season (that being 77% in 2013/14 with Southend), but it equals his best Bristol City season average - that he set last season.

He's a very solid Championship keeper. Does that mean we should keep him at all costs? In my opinion no. He's not only solid, but he's also replaceable. 

Again, just focussing on save % - Southwood, Roos, Collins and Ingram are at relegation threatened Reading, Derby, Barnsley and Hull respectively. All have a higher save % than Bentley this season, and if their teams are relegated then all could be available in the summer if we need a replacement.

Edited November 11, 2021 by ExiledAjax

[The Fat Controller]

1 hour ago, CyderInACan said:

Maybe treading on forbidden lawns here, but is Bentley part of the problem rather than the solution? 

I think so, and I appreciate it is not a popular opinion. 

His main problem is that he does not command his area. Commanding the box gives huge confidence to the defenders in front of you and I think this is partly why our defence often sits so deep. He is also not the incredible shot stopper he is lauded as being on here. 

[Loco Rojo]

1 hour ago, And Its Smith said:

Either they sign by 1st July or we need to sell. Cannot afford for anyone to run their contract down again.  Guess it will depend what division we are in next season and how the market continues to go now that fans are back.  Would Kalas get the money he is on here elsewhere for example.  If Massengo has ambition, which I assume he has, he will leave to join a better run club that also has its team playing to a style that suits him 

No ones going to buy the ones we're willing to sell (possibly due to wage demands, how attractive they look to other teams given our current situation and the view mention about the state of the transfer market) and the players themselves would be in a better position to let their contracts run down (assuming we don't offer them deals).

I think most if not all of those we don't want to keep will leve for nothing.

[LondonBristolian]

1 hour ago, CyderInACan said:

Maybe treading on forbidden lawns here, but is Bentley part of the problem rather than the solution? 

I’m wondering about Kalas. Very good defender but - partnership with Webster aside - he has rarely been part of a solid defensive unit. I think he is a good player but imagine he is on a hefty wage and am open minded as to whether he is value for money on that.

[Grey Fox]

2 hours ago, Jerseybean said:

Bristol City have 23 players out of contract over the next 18 months, including Han-Noah Massengo, Tomas Kalas and Dan Bentley, what’s the full picture look like?

Davefevs the stage is yours…

Get rid of the lot of them, bunch of bottlers

[Rob k]

I look at our whole team and wonder who we are getting any money for? 
I don’t believe we are getting much for any of the 3 mentioned above 

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I’m wondering about Kalas. Very good defender but - partnership with Webster aside - he has rarely been part of a solid defensive unit. I think he is a good player but imagine he is on a hefty wage and am open minded as to whether he is value for money on that.

I posed that question recently, could you cash in on Kalas, get his £3m p.a. off the cost base (£2m amortisation / £1m wages) and use that more efficiently?  In January his value in the books will be £3m, so if you could get £5m for him, that helps, plus no more wages.  Baker and Atkinson, plus a cost-effective recruit (loan maybe) making up the three first choice CBs with money to spare.

As for general contract renewals:

Younger players on sensible wages, yes, you probably could improve their terms.

But you aren’t gonna exercise O’Dowda’s option, nor are you likely to re-contract Kalas or Bentley at improved terms, you’d be looking to bring them down (imho). For O’Dowda to stay he’s gonna have to do a Weimann and take a wage drop.   Which leads to a concern that you can’t even wait til next summer, you need to move them on in January.  That’s a big gamble in our current position.

Recruitment “collective” need to have a stellar January if that’s the case.

Other clubs will be looking to offload due to inability to get existing players to re-contract too…it won’t just be us, so there’s some hope.

Derby’s administrators might also be looking to get rid of players too.

Its a really uncertain time.  I suspect Nige wanted it to be a quiet January, but I suspect it’s gonna be anything but.

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, Rob k said:

I look at our whole team and wonder who we are getting any money for? 
I don’t believe we are getting much for any of the 3 mentioned above 

I think a promo-chasing club might have a look at Kalas, or even European teams.

[The Original OTIB]

16 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I think a promo-chasing club might have a look at Kalas, or even European teams.

Maybe Hearts will buy Moore... on another note, this is interesting:

consistent and straightforward instructions from coaching staff help Hearts players whenever they are asked to play in an unfamiliar role. He cited Moore as an example.

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/hearts/taylor-moore-emerges-as-new-option-in-key-position-for-hearts-3450729

 

[Merrick's Marvels]

50 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I’m wondering about Kalas. Very good defender but - partnership with Webster aside - he has rarely been part of a solid defensive unit. I think he is a good player but imagine he is on a hefty wage and am open minded as to whether he is value for money on that.

When you see Atkinson playing competently alongside him you begin to wonder what exactly is the value for money we're getting out of Kalas

I agree with you - I think he's an excellent defender. At times in the last 18 months he's absolutely bust a gut for our club. So this isn't about him as an individual - this is about how we've got ourselves in such a financial pickle.

Cut to the chase - Bristol City can't afford £8 million quid defenders on sky high wages. We got ahead of ourselves with expenditure on that scale - or rather Ashton did, thinking he was a big time charlie. Not just expenditure on Kalas but several others too.   

 

Edited November 11, 2021 by Merrick's Marvels

[GrahamC]

1 minute ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

When you see Atkinson playing competently alongside him you begin to wonder what exactly is the value for money we're getting out of Kalas

I agree with you - I think he's an excellent defender. At times in the last 18 months he's absolutely bust a gut for our club. So this isn't about him as an individual - this is about how we've got ourselves in such a financial pickle.

Cut to the chase - Bristol City can't afford £8 million quid defenders on sky high wages. We got ahead of ourselves with expenditure on that scale - or rather Ashton did, thinking he was a big time charlie. Not just expenditure on Kalas but several others too.   

To be fair to Kalas though the context here was that we signed him permanently at around the same time as we sold Webster for a club record £20m & with no indication of any likely pandemic to decimate income or the transfer market.

I would argue that he isn’t the problem, we have struggled to extract value from loads of signings in recent years & as this summer’s Euros showed, he is plenty good enough but many of his team mates (past & present) are not.

[Merrick's Marvels]

36 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

But you aren’t gonna exercise O’Dowda’s option, nor are you likely to re-contract Kalas or Bentley at improved terms, you’d be looking to bring them down (imho). For O’Dowda to stay he’s gonna have to do a Weimann and take a wage drop.   Which leads to a concern that you can’t even wait til next summer, you need to move them on in January.  That’s a big gamble in our current position.

 

If anyone - anyone - offers O'Dowda new terms I'll personally hunt them down.

[Dredd]

1 hour ago, ExiledAjax said:

I don't think he is either. He's conceding goals at an alarming rate, and has only 1 clean sheet to his name this season, but if we look at the stats he's still maintaining a 70% save rate, which gets him in to the top 10 goalies in the division on that metric (9th out of those who have played at least 10 games), having faced the second highest number of shots on target (81). Of those who have played every minute of the league campaign, only Collins at Barnsley has a better save rate, and it's better than Bentley's by only 0.5%.

Compared to his own past performances 70% is far from his best season (that being 77% in 2013/14 with Southend), but it equals his best Bristol City season average - that he set last season.

He's a very solid Championship keeper. Does that mean we should keep him at all costs? In my opinion no. He's not only solid, but he's also replaceable. 

Again, just focussing on save % - Southwood, Roos, Collins and Ingram are at relegation threatened Reading, Derby, Barnsley and Hull respectively. All have a higher save % than Bentley this season, and if their teams are relegated then all could be available in the summer if we need a replacement.

Save rate sounds like one of those stats that sounds great but if he’s making mistakes that leads to goals then it doesn’t mean much

[LondonBristolian]

6 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

To be fair to Kalas though the context here was that we signed him permanently at around the same time as we sold Webster for a club record £20m & with no indication of any likely pandemic to decimate income or the transfer market.

I would argue that he isn’t the problem, we have struggled to extract value from loads of signings in recent years & as this summer’s Euros showed, he is plenty good enough but many of his team mates (past & present) are not.

I don't think Kalas is any sense the problem. But I do think, if you compare Kalas & Atkinson as a pairing to Baker & Atkinson as a pairing, the difference in quality between the two partnerships isn't anywhere near as great as what I suspect the difference in combined wages for the pairing is. For me, it's not that I want to lose Kalas or think the signing was a terrible mistake but - given we are now feeling the after-effects of a pandemic and that finances will likely be hit for some time - it is really hard to justify a case to extend his contract on the same or higher wages, even if the alternative was losing our record signing for nothing. 

Edited November 11, 2021 by LondonBristolian

[RobintheRed Red]

1 hour ago, bris red said:

He certainly isn’t the fantastic goalkeeper many on here make him out to be I don’t think, i wouldn’t say he is part of the problem per se but if there is opportunity to cash in on him and get a few million i think we should without hesitation to be honest.

Yes good shot stopper but got this palmino out thing and not the best on crosses zhats why big clubs havent come in

 

[RobintheRed Red]

Just now, RobintheRed Red said:

Yes good shot stopper but got this palming out thing and not the best on crosses thats why big clubs havent come in

 

 

[Merrick's Marvels]

9 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

To be fair to Kalas though the context here was that we signed him permanently at around the same time as we sold Webster for a club record £20m & with no indication of any likely pandemic to decimate income or the transfer market.

I would argue that he isn’t the problem, we have struggled to extract value from loads of signings in recent years & as this summer’s Euros showed, he is plenty good enough but many of his team mates (past & present) are not.

I would still argue there's absolutely no need for BCFC to be signing expensive defenders from the likes of Chelsea when there are plenty of alternatives capable of playing Championship football at a much cheaper cost.

Atkinson is just the latest example of the quality to be found lower down - if you care to look. Ashton didn't. Sheffield Utd went to the Prem on L1 centre halves. Cardiff have blokes from Plymouth. Flint did perfectly well for us. And so on, tons of examples out there. 

I don't mind splashing the cash on a quality striker. But to my mind, defenders are not where we should be pushing the boat out - because there's no need to.  

Edited November 11, 2021 by Merrick's Marvels

[JoeAman08]

Think it is a tricky situation as pretty much everyone OOC in the next 18 months will be on pre covid wages. So how do those negotiations go? 
 

I think we are in dreamland a bit if we think we can convince Massengo today. Not ever seen much emotion from him before but last few games he has been visibly frustrated. Can’t say that I really blame him either to be honest.

We need to be honest about the situation and weigh up the pro and cons of perhaps selling in January. I’d say same goes for Kalas and Bentley. Then we need to be honest about the valuation of players like Dasilva, Palmer and O’Dowda. We may need to take some kind of loss on them at some point which will hurt but hopefully quicken up the rebuild process.