Time EFL looked at Readings signings

[davidoldfart]

If Reading are on a wage cap of £8,500 a week per player -how do they get Drinkwater who is on £120,000 a week from Chelsea ,the sign Carroll who normally not get out of bed for £8,500 a week …only saying 

[Merrick's Marvels]

Horse. Stable door. Bolted. 

You're not wrong though. 

[GrahamC]

I’m equally bemused as to how they were only deducted 6 points with 6 more suspended.

No time for Derby & their shenanigans but seems very inconsistent.

Pathetic club too.

[Waconda]

Derby were paying Tom Ince's Mum to be an "agent" is one example of how.

I would suggest.

£700,000 paid to 'Claire Ince Promotions'

The Championship outfit believe Rush overpaid on agents’ fees, transfer fees and approved 10 ‘sham’ scouting agreements, one of which was to do with Ince.

Derby paid a club record fee to sign Ince from Hull City and, according to Derby, an additional £700,000 payment to Tom Ince’s mother and Paul Ince’s wife, Claire Ince.

The payment was named the ‘Ince Scouting Agreement’ and was paid to ‘Claire Ince Promotions’.

Edited November 27, 2021 by VT05763

[1960maaan]

2 hours ago, davidoldfart said:

If Reading are on a wage cap of £8,500 a week per player -how do they get Drinkwater who is on £120,000 a week from Chelsea ,the sign Carroll who normally not get out of bed for £8,500 a week …only saying 

I saw rumours that Chelsea were paying most of Drinkwaters wage, Carol  could be using the short tern loan to get fit.  Only guessing.
I don't understand how they allowed to loan anyone, not while under embargo with a pretty much full squad.

[Rocking Red Cyril]

1 hour ago, VT05763 said:

Derby were paying Tom Ince's Mum to be an "agent" is one example of how.

I would suggest.

£700,000 paid to 'Claire Ince Promotions'

The Championship outfit believe Rush overpaid on agents’ fees, transfer fees and approved 10 ‘sham’ scouting agreements, one of which was to do with Ince.

Derby paid a club record fee to sign Ince from Hull City and, according to Derby, an additional £700,000 payment to Tom Ince’s mother and Paul Ince’s wife, Claire Ince.

The payment was named the ‘Ince Scouting Agreement’ and was paid to ‘Claire Ince Promotions’.

Right I confused.

What has claire Ince got to do with Tom inces mum. And what has tom inces mum got to do with with his contracts in football. It all seems very irregular to me 

[Lrrr]

On Carroll his main priority was location to him as he didn't want to travel too far from where he's based, so given how much he's earned in his career its not unreasonable for that sort of figure if it means he gets to stay where he wants. Add that I assume this is a basic wage that is allowed to have all sorts of add ons.

[PHILINFRANCE]

22 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

On Carroll his main priority was location to him as he didn't want to travel too far from where he's based, so given how much he's earned in his career its not unreasonable for that sort of figure if it means he gets to stay where he wants. Add that I assume this is a basic wage that is allowed to have all sorts of add ons.

Out of curiosity, where is he based?

I know he played for West Ham recently, but assumed he would have been based in or around Newcastle.

[Davefevs]

22 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

On Carroll his main priority was location to him as he didn't want to travel too far from where he's based, so given how much he's earned in his career its not unreasonable for that sort of figure if it means he gets to stay where he wants. Add that I assume this is a basic wage that is allowed to have all sorts of add ons.

Under any EFL transfer embargo or control, the limit on “wages” covers everything, wages, agent fees, relocation, etc, etc.  so if it was £8.5k p.w maximum, then that will be inclusive on add-one, it won’t be £8.5k p.w wages and £100k appearance bonus (crude example).

[ExiledAjax]

One would assume that Reading aren't playing silly buggers given they have just been handed a points deduction, and have a further 6 suspended. To mess around with this stuff at this point is suicide if they get caught. However strange their signings and arrangements may seem, I think it's safe to assume that they are within the constraints that are imposed upon them.

[Mr Popodopolous]

It was a double signing for Reading @davidoldfart so it's perhaps even worse than you suggest.

I read- Rahman- £50k per week, Drinkwater £120k per week.

Wage cap=£8.5k per player x 6- or is it 7 now with Carroll- which means that for the two Chelsea loanees, the parent club have to be paying at minimum 90% of the salary- as a pair, combined- if Reading can pay only £8.5k per player, that's £17k per week for the pair- what a bargain!

49 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

One would assume that Reading aren't playing silly buggers given they have just been handed a points deduction, and have a further 6 suspended. To mess around with this stuff at this point is suicide if they get caught. However strange their signings and arrangements may seem, I think it's safe to assume that they are within the constraints that are imposed upon them.

Agreed. If they have been playing silly buggers I could easily foresee the 6 becoming 12 with further charges added ie misconduct or similar. PL clubs doing favours for specific EFL clubs makes it that much harder for the majority though.

Edited November 28, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Lrrr]

7 hours ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

Out of curiosity, where is he based?

I know he played for West Ham recently, but assumed he would have been based in or around Newcastle.

He’s still around the West Ham area I believe 

7 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Under any EFL transfer embargo or control, the limit on “wages” covers everything, wages, agent fees, relocation, etc, etc.  so if it was £8.5k p.w maximum, then that will be inclusive on add-one, it won’t be £8.5k p.w wages and £100k appearance bonus (crude example).

Fair enough, I’ll go back to point A that he’s rich enough that being on 8500 all in a week doesn’t really matter to him and it’s about location 

[Waconda]

8 hours ago, Rocking Red Cyril said:

Right I confused.

What has claire Ince got to do with Tom inces mum. And what has tom inces mum got to do with with his contracts in football. It all seems very irregular to me 

That's the point.

[Waconda]

13 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

I wonder if Pearson will be in for Drinkwater at the end of the season. He might have to take a 110,000 pound a week pay cut, but I doubt anyone would pay him even a sixth of his current wage.

I hope not, on any level.

[chinapig]

9 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

One would assume that Reading aren't playing silly buggers given they have just been handed a points deduction, and have a further 6 suspended. To mess around with this stuff at this point is suicide if they get caught. However strange their signings and arrangements may seem, I think it's safe to assume that they are within the constraints that are imposed upon them.

No doubt they are compliant but the fact is they are being massively subsidised by Chelsea.

Otherwise they would either have a weaker squad or they would breach P&S again.

So they now have a competitive advantage over the clubs around them which negates the points deduction.

Yet another loophole then!

[ExiledAjax]

29 minutes ago, chinapig said:

No doubt they are compliant but the fact is they are being massively subsidised by Chelsea.

Otherwise they would either have a weaker squad or they would breach P&S again.

So they now have a competitive advantage over the clubs around them which negates the points deduction.

Yet another loophole then!

Yeh, they've certainly found a way to get around it. But at the end of the day the restrictions in the Agreed Decision aren't aimed at punishing Reading, that's what the points deduction did. The Agreed Decision and Budget are designed to keep Reading to a certain budget (Total Player Salary Costs of not more than £21.1m in the current Season, reducing to £16m in the following Season). I guess Reading would argue that if Chelsea want to pay 90K and Reading pay 10K...who cares? 

It is kind of a loophole, and might look odd to us, but I'm not sure there's much of an issue unless they've breached terms.

At the end of the day, there isn't really anything stopping us from getting a top 6 club to send us a cast off and pay 90% of his wages.

[Davefevs]

26 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Yeh, they've certainly found a way to get around it. But at the end of the day the restrictions in the Agreed Decision aren't aimed at punishing Reading, that's what the points deduction did. The Agreed Decision and Budget are designed to keep Reading to a certain budget (Total Player Salary Costs of not more than £21.1m in the current Season, reducing to £16m in the following Season). I guess Reading would argue that if Chelsea want to pay 90K and Reading pay 10K...who cares? 

It is kind of a loophole, and might look odd to us, but I'm not sure there's much of an issue unless they've breached terms.

At the end of the day, there isn't really anything stopping us from getting a top 6 club to send us a cast off and pay 90% of his wages.

Yep, up to Chelsea I guess….another flaw in the loan system currently in place.

I think players over (say) 23 should only be loaned under the terms of their contract, eg. Loaning club pay full costs.  Under 23, if same league, then see above, if below then a sliding percentage based on age, e.g. 22 = 75%, 21 = 50%, etc.  it would stop hoarding imho.

[Lrrr]

23 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Yep, up to Chelsea I guess….another flaw in the loan system currently in place.

I think players over (say) 23 should only be loaned under the terms of their contract, eg. Loaning club pay full costs.  Under 23, if same league, then see above, if below then a sliding percentage based on age, e.g. 22 = 75%, 21 = 50%, etc.  it would stop hoarding imho.

I think portion based on division would be a better idea or as an alternative allowed way and have both and has to be one or other. 1 division below = minimum x% paid by loaning club, 2 division below = less minimum % paid by loaning club etc. Division is generally an easier way of looking at how much a club can afford rather than the age of the player in question. For example James Morton when he's fit 22 turning 23 this season, if we wanted to loan him out he's not played a L1 game yet I believe as I don't think Evans ever used him in league at Gillingham so with age as the deciding factor you'd be saying the same minimum % would have to be covered by a league 1 team as it would be a league 2 team, which is why I think division can work better. Would it then cut off at NL? Given how many loanees go to Bath City first I imagine there's a very cosy deal there between City and Bath that they're not paying too much if they have as many as 3+ on loan at any one time.

[Davefevs]

Just now, Lrrr said:

I think portion based on division would be a better idea or as an alternative allowed way and have both and has to be one or other. 1 division below = minimum x% paid by loaning club, 2 division below = less minimum % paid by loaning club etc. Division is generally an easier way of looking at how much a club can afford rather than the age of the player in question. For example James Morton when he's fit 22 turning 23 this season, if we wanted to loan him out he's not played a L1 game yet I believe as I don't think Evans ever used him in league at Gillingham so with age as the deciding factor you'd be saying the same minimum % would have to be covered by a league 1 team as it would be a league 2 team, which is why I think division can work better. Would it then cut off at NL? Given how many loanees go to Bath City first I imagine there's a very cosy deal there between City and Bath that they're not paying too much if they have as many as 3+ on loan at any one time.

Yeah, that has legs too.

[Banjo Red]

[Mr Popodopolous]

From the little I read, it could be plausible- I stress the word could.

EFL have to approve each signing basically, and it was basically suggested that a 10 week contract for Carroll- was it 8 or 10, don't recall- was all that they could stretch to in terms of their remaining headroom- on that salary. You'd hope that if the EFL have to approve signings that they- the EFL- wouldn't let a club exceed the remaining FFP headroom thereby putting them in breach again!

IF they move some high earners out in Jan, then they might be able to extend his deal.

Edited December 1, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Pezo]

On 29/11/2021 at 10:53, Banjo Red said:

I wonder what the total cost of player was (agent, bonus, rental car ect).

[Davefevs]

Exactly, Pezo

[TMWANG50]

This is a strange thought but perhaps Carroll just wanted to play football and isn't worried about the money, as he was a free agent with a terrible injury record he probably couldn't even demand huge wages like you might expect especially in a coivd era? He might even be on a deal based on the minutes he plays for all we know with no huge bonuses? He's had a coupe of big moves so is probably a multi millionaire. 

I think the Chelsea loan thing is more crooked, you are basically subsiding another club or even creating a feeder club for your fringe players. Perhaps Abramovich is trying to get into China and this is good networking for him by doing a few dodgy loan deals with a Chinese owned club!! The sooner we follow the model of Germany with supporter led clubs the better.

Edited December 1, 2021 by TMWANG50

[Wrongagain]

Where there’s a will there’s a way - not so long ago we had a championship team fielding 11 members of the Portuguese national squad - absolutely no way they legally complied with FFP rules - the EFL didn’t bat an eyelid!

[oldstandrobin]

On 27/11/2021 at 23:27, Rocking Red Cyril said:

Right I confused.

What has claire Ince got to do with Tom inces mum. And what has tom inces mum got to do with with his contracts in football. It all seems very irregular to me 

Give them an Ince and they will take a mile 

[1960maaan]

2 hours ago, TMWANG50 said:

This is a strange thought but perhaps Carroll just wanted to play football and isn't worried about the money, as he was a free agent with a terrible injury record he probably couldn't even demand huge wages like you might expect especially in a coivd era? He might even be on a deal based on the minutes he plays for all we know with no huge bonuses? He's had a coupe of big moves so is probably a multi millionaire. 

I think the Chelsea loan thing is more crooked, you are basically subsiding another club or even creating a feeder club for your fringe players. Perhaps Abramovich is trying to get into China and this is good networking for him by doing a few dodgy loan deals with a Chinese owned club!! The sooner we follow the model of Germany with supporter led clubs the better.

Carol was (2019) in the top 20 richest sports persons aged 30 or under. Not short of a bob. If he still wants to play, it is a way into getting fit.

Chelsea could be doing similar in reverse. If I've got it right, he has about 18 months left on a contract worth £120k a week. If he does well, someone could show interest and get him (or part of his wages ) off of the wage bill.

As for the last bit, never gonna happen .

[Mr Popodopolous]

On 01/12/2021 at 05:25, Pezo said:

I wonder what the total cost of player was (agent, bonus, rental car ect).

 

On 01/12/2021 at 09:11, Davefevs said:

Exactly, Pezo

I mean, it could be either way tbh- the Business Plan Reading are currently under as part of their punishment/Agreed Decision includes all wage costs. Whether Carroll was done just in time who knows but the EFL wouldn't let- or shouldn't let- even prior to the arrangement any deal go through that exceeds the £13m loss target etc.

On 01/12/2021 at 10:39, TMWANG50 said:

I think the Chelsea loan thing is more crooked, you are basically subsiding another club or even creating a feeder club for your fringe players. Perhaps Abramovich is trying to get into China and this is good networking for him by doing a few dodgy loan deals with a Chinese owned club!! The sooner we follow the model of Germany with supporter led clubs the better.

Reading owner owned a Belgian and a Chinese club IIRC...both have now gone bust. Possibly but also possible that Reading and Chelsea just have some prior unexplained relationship- Gourlay was CEO at both for example. He was generally seen as disastrous at Reading...definitely they need to look at some kind of reform though, Reading are benefitting majorly from this.