This club has no business in the Championship

[ooRya]

7 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Here’s a fuller one

You missed Kalas and Baker splitting inside our own penalty area to receive a goal kick v Stoke then?  We do attempt to play out.  The fact was that on the second attempt to do it, Bentley tried to knock a ball into Williams, by bending it around the Stoke man blocking the passing lane.  We managed to snuff out the chance, but then in our players minds it’s “shit, I cocked up, I can’t do that again”, so they stop doing it.

For info here’s Bents stats over several games.

What I would say is that when we fail to do something we stop doing it.  It’s a bit of weak mentality, rather than trusting what you’ve done in training and prepared for.

Im not saying we are trying to play total football, just that there are circumstances why we dont.

Blsckpool we’re one of the best passing sides in Lg1.  Through our press in the first league game, we made then go long more times than all bar about 2 or 3 games the season before.  So opposition has a massive bearing on what we are trying to do.

I appreciate the more in depth reply.

However, please don't try to sway me with statistics. I know what I see on a match day, and yes of course there will be occasions where the ball is played out, but there is no denying that the general trend is to kick it long.

I totally get the confidence and weak mentality argument, but in my opinion a good coach/manager will get around that.

[Supersonic Robin]

49 minutes ago, ooRya said:

I appreciate the more in depth reply.

However, please don't try to sway me with statistics. I know what I see on a match day (1), and yes of course there will be occasions where the ball is played out, but there is no denying that the general trend is to kick it long.

I totally get the confidence and weak mentality argument, but in my opinion a good coach/manager will get around that (2).

(1) I think that's part of the point here - one of the useful things about stats is that they can show that what we think we're seeing isn't always entirely accurate.

(2) I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I do think it's a little more complicated than you make it sound. IMO Pearson has the CV and experience to resolve such issues, but it's a long arduous process that requires fundamental changes in our club culture. Other fans comment on issues of confidence/mentally/motivation in a way that suggests that a rousing Pearson speech in the dressing room will suddenly resolve our problems. I don't see it as quite that simple.

[Red-Robbo]

5 minutes ago, Supersonic Robin said:

(1) I think that's part of the point here - one of the useful things about stats is that they can show that what we think we're seeing isn't always entirely accurate.

 

[ooRya]

24 minutes ago, Supersonic Robin said:

(1) I think that's part of the point here - one of the useful things about stats is that they can show that what we think we're seeing isn't always entirely accurate.

(2) I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I do think it's a little more complicated than you make it sound. IMO Pearson has the CV and experience to resolve such issues, but it's a long arduous process that requires fundamental changes in our club culture. Other fans comment on issues of confidence/mentally/motivation in a way that suggests that a rousing Pearson speech in the dressing room will suddenly resolve our problems. I don't see it as quite that simple.

(1) Statistics are fine, as long as you don't fall into the trap of dressing them up as "fact".

(2) The thing is, the players aren't 11 year old kids having a kickabout, they're professional footballers. If their manager tells them to play a certain way then that is how they should play. If they ignore instructions and carry on doing the wrong thing, then I think it's only right to start looking at the manager.

 

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, ooRya said:

I appreciate the more in depth reply.

However, please don't try to sway me with statistics. I know what I see on a match day, and yes of course there will be occasions where the ball is played out, but there is no denying that the general trend is to kick it long.

I totally get the confidence and weak mentality argument, but in my opinion a good coach/manager will get around that.

I wasn’t trying to sway you, I was trying to point you at the fact we do sometimes try…but I agree we don’t do it enough.  I tried to give you an example of why we don’t / stop doing it.

So, on Saturday, when we have a goal kick and Derby mark our defenders and block passing lanes into midfield, what do you do differently?  Just imagine it’s the same side as Sunday but Atkinson for Baker.  Rooney is gonna know we are fragile.

Here’s a picture.

If Derby get their positioning right it’s very difficult.

Knight and Morrison (highlighted) can stop 3 or 4 options if they get it right.  How do we get Han-Noah or Tyreeq on the ball without having Shinnie and Thompson on top of them.  The pass into them has to be good / quick, but they need options off their first touch, or the expectation is they’ll have to spin their marker (risky).  Do Kalas and Atkinson split even wider, but that then narrows the pitch for the next pass?

Ideally we need to switch on really quickly and get the passing started before Derby set.

What would you do?

 

 

[ooRya]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I wasn’t trying to sway you, I was trying to point you at the fact we do sometimes try…but I agree we don’t do it enough.  I tried to give you an example of why we don’t / stop doing it.

So, on Saturday, when we have a goal kick and Derby mark our defenders and block passing lanes into midfield, what do you do differently?  Just imagine it’s the same side as Sunday but Atkinson for Baker.  Rooney is gonna know we are fragile.

Here’s a picture.

If Derby get their positioning right it’s very difficult.

Knight and Morrison (highlighted) can stop 3 or 4 options if they get it right.  How do we get Han-Noah or Tyreeq on the ball without having Shinnie and Thompson on top of them.  The pass into them has to be good / quick, but they need options off their first touch, or the expectation is they’ll have to spin their marker (risky).  Do Kalas and Atkinson split even wider, but that then narrows the pitch for the next pass?

Ideally we need to switch on really quickly and get the passing started before Derby set.

What would you do?

 

 

Your example is from a static goal kick, where opposing players have had time to sort out their positioning etc, so of course I can see the issue here - although I think good coaching can teach you to move and find spaces. Generally we are quite good at closing down to try and stop the opposition from playing it out, yet they still manage to do it....even the so-called "poor" teams

But it's not just goalkicks. Even if Bently has the ball in hand, it's rare that he will look for the quick throw/pass to one of our players. Generally it's just "wave them all upfield to one side of the pitch, and kick long".

[BTRFTG]

On 28/11/2021 at 14:25, Countryfile said:

When you see Wells unable to pass to a colleague for an open net you do wonder about personal agendas.

That truly was shocking but the numpties will still counter ' he doesn't get the service.....'

[BTRFTG]

47 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

Appears in Twain's biography but he nicked it from Disraeli who himself nicked it from the (then) MP for The Forest of Dean.......

[Davefevs]

7 minutes ago, ooRya said:

Your example is from a static goal kick, where opposing players have had time to sort out their positioning etc, so of course I can see the issue here - although I think good coaching can teach you to move and find spaces. Generally we are quite good at closing down to try and stop the opposition from playing it out, yet they still manage to do it....even the so-called "poor" teams

But it's not just goalkicks. Even if Bently has the ball in hand, it's rare that he will look for the quick throw/pass to one of our players. Generally it's just "wave them all upfield to one side of the pitch, and kick long".

Agree.

Bentley’s distribution isn’t as great as many make out, mainly let down by poor decision making.  Technically he’s fine, but when to play quickly or not, from hands or feet, he can be suspect.

I remember the Man Utd side of the 90s, as soon as Schmeichel caught the ball, Giggs and Kanchekskis were off.  That can be coached, planned without doubt.  Even if it’s to drag opposition players with you with little intention to get the ball, but with full intention of acting as a decoy.

I’m not there on Saturday, so looking forward to hearing what happens.

[Red-Robbo]

3 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

Appears in Twain's biography but he nicked it from Disraeli who himself nicked it from the (then) MP for The Forest of Dean.......

 

Didn't check who it was from, just knew it will never be quoted by @Davefevs  

[Supersonic Robin]

19 minutes ago, ooRya said:

(1) Statistics are fine, as long as you don't fall into the trap of dressing them up as "fact".

(2) The thing is, the players aren't 11 year old kids having a kickabout, they're professional footballers. If their manager tells them to play a certain way then that is how they should play. If they ignore instructions and carry on doing the wrong thing, then I think it's only right to start looking at the manager.

 

That's that point though, it's not necessarily as simple as giving an instruction. Changing our club culture is a slow and painful process that will take time. 

Also worth bearing in mind that even if a manager tells us to play a certain way, the opposition are focused on stopping us doing exactly that. Equally, we can't fully focus on playing how we might want to as we also have to deal with stopping the opposition. 

Weirdly, I've made a similar point in the past but the other way around: You're right, they're not 11 year olds kids that should need chaperoning by Pearson, so how much responsibility should fall on Pearson for things like player motivation, commitment and application? A lot of it should come from professional/personal pride and respect for your employer and colleagues. If a player is "ignoring instructions" then criticism should surely fall on the player rather than the manager.

 

[ooRya]

57 minutes ago, Supersonic Robin said:

That's that point though, it's not necessarily as simple as giving an instruction. Changing our club culture is a slow and painful process that will take time. 

Also worth bearing in mind that even if a manager tells us to play a certain way, the opposition are focused on stopping us doing exactly that. Equally, we can't fully focus on playing how we might want to as we also have to deal with stopping the opposition. 

Weirdly, I've made a similar point in the past but the other way around: You're right, they're not 11 year olds kids that should need chaperoning by Pearson, so how much responsibility should fall on Pearson for things like player motivation, commitment and application? A lot of it should come from professional/personal pride and respect for your employer and colleagues. If a player is "ignoring instructions" then criticism should surely fall on the player rather than the manager.

 

Fair points....but surely the role of a Manager is to, well......manage

[Davefevs]

3 hours ago, ooRya said:

Fair points....but surely the role of a Manager is to, well......manage

is he not managing then?

Out of interest what aspects of management do you think he’s not doing?  Why do you think that and what evidence for that view?  Or do you just think he’s managing poorly?  Again which aspects and why?

Ever managed a team in work that isn’t performing, one you’ve taken on from someone else?  It’s hard work innit?  Takes time to get results.  You get some bits wrong.  You think you’ve turned a corner with someone and they shaft you and it’s back to square one. What do you do when you’ve not got budget / resources to get the job done?  Does this make you a bad manager, the person at fault?

I get that football is different to a normal workplace but their are parallels.

 

[Waconda]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

is he not managing then?

Out of interest what aspects of management do you think he’s not doing?  Why do you think that and what evidence for that view?  Or do you just think he’s managing poorly?  Again which aspects and why?

Ever managed a team in work that isn’t performing, one you’ve taken on from someone else?  It’s hard work innit?  Takes time to get results.  You get some bits wrong.  You think you’ve turned a corner with someone and they shaft you and it’s back to square one. What do you do when you’ve not got budget / resources to get the job done?  Does this make you a bad manager, the person at fault?

I get that football is different to a normal workplace but their are parallels.

 

I understand your point here although don't totally agree.

I might say there is more to our situation that the one you describe in that example.

 

[Davefevs]

20 minutes ago, VT05763 said:

I understand your point here although don't totally agree.

I might say there is more to our situation that the one you describe in that example.

 

Absolutely there’s more to our situation, it’s a bloody mess, we have no money, we have an unbalanced squad in terms of ability, positions and age…it’s gonna take some resolving.  Pearson isn’t perfect either, I know that.  I just think he’s a very easy target….and much is unjustified because of the context / constraints he’s having to manage under.  If people feel I’m over-egging the reality of the situation, in Nige’s defence, that’s fine, I accept the challenge….but as yet I’m not hearing that challenge, just blame.

 

[Waconda]

7 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Absolutely there’s more to our situation, it’s a bloody mess, we have no money, we have an unbalanced squad in terms of ability, positions and age…it’s gonna take some resolving.  Pearson isn’t perfect either, I know that.  I just think he’s a very easy target….and much is unjustified because of the context / constraints he’s having to manage under.  If people feel I’m over-egging the reality of the situation, in Nige’s defence, that’s fine, I accept the challenge….but as yet I’m not hearing that challenge, just blame.

 

I agree to a point. 

I do feel however there is more to the situation behind the scenes than we are currently being made aware of.

We will see in time.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, VT05763 said:

I agree to a point. 

I do feel however there is more to the situation behind the scenes than we are currently being made aware of.

We will see in time.

Like what….in your opinion?

[Waconda]

25 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Like what….in your opinion?

Correct.

[Davefevs]

6 minutes ago, VT05763 said:

Correct.

What kind of things?  Give an example or three?  I’m fine if it’s just in your opinion.

[Waconda]

4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

What kind of things?  Give an example or three?  I’m fine if it’s just in your opinion.

Unable to, apologies.

[Davefevs]

Just now, VT05763 said:

Unable to, apologies.

Np (no probs, not Nigel Pearson )

Here’s some speculation.  Is a sale a bit closer than we think?

[ooRya]

12 hours ago, Davefevs said:

is he not managing then?

Out of interest what aspects of management do you think he’s not doing?  Why do you think that and what evidence for that view?  Or do you just think he’s managing poorly?  Again which aspects and why?

Ever managed a team in work that isn’t performing, one you’ve taken on from someone else?  It’s hard work innit?  Takes time to get results.  You get some bits wrong.  You think you’ve turned a corner with someone and they shaft you and it’s back to square one. What do you do when you’ve not got budget / resources to get the job done?  Does this make you a bad manager, the person at fault?

I get that football is different to a normal workplace but their are parallels.

 

Someone previously mentioned that, how they train to play is totally different to how they actually play on a matchday. Surely this is something that should be addressed by the manager?

I can only assume that he is actually happy to see them play hoofball, which for me is very worrying as it doesn't work!

Like him or not ( I do ) when LJ was here, I could at least see what he was trying to do, and how he was trying to get the players to play, but I am at a total loss as to NP's plan/style/direction. And this is after 9 months.

NP's pre Bristol City record shows that he can be/is a good manager, but is he the right manager for us at this point in time?

Before you ask, no I don't know who else we could get to come in and do a better job, but I really worry that we are going to sleepwalk to relegation.

[Davefevs]

46 minutes ago, ooRya said:

Someone previously mentioned that, how they train to play is totally different to how they actually play on a matchday. Surely this is something that should be addressed by the manager?

I can only assume that he is actually happy to see them play hoofball, which for me is very worrying as it doesn't work!

Like him or not ( I do ) when LJ was here, I could at least see what he was trying to do, and how he was trying to get the players to play, but I am at a total loss as to NP's plan/style/direction. And this is after 9 months.

NP's pre Bristol City record shows that he can be/is a good manager, but is he the right manager for us at this point in time?

Before you ask, no I don't know who else we could get to come in and do a better job, but I really worry that we are going to sleepwalk to relegation.

I think he’s happy to play a pragmatic brand of football, that involves quite a bit / lot  of direct football (it is not hoofball like Wimbledon or Cambridge).  I use the word happy and pragmatic, because he realises the risks of trying to play “total football” with the players he has available to him.  We don’t smash it every time we get it, but we don’t try to play too much in our own third, especially if pressed, either.   In some respects I wish we did play hoofball, and set up accordingly.  We are a bit in a rock and a hard place.

I do think we need to stop using 9 months rationale.  The squad was ripped apart in the summer….his football “plan” started pre-season.  You can’t really put a plan into place for this season during last season, as virtually half the squad left / were leaving.  If you want to moan about the plan this season, that is a much better discussion base.

As for training, we don’t know what they do.  Robinstv shows 5 mins of stretching and 5 mins of small-sided games / technical basics.  It’s not a good cross-section of what they do, it’s pretty stuff for the camera.  We don’t see the 11v11 stuff we are told Nige uses a fair bit.  We obviously never see a tactical briefing for the game ahead or debrief of the previous game.  We don’t see set-piece training….which has shown massive improvements both defensively and offensively.

I don’t disagree with the fact we are struggling.  Players go into their shells after a bad pass, etc.  Some of that is down to the manager to resolve, I accept.

Could you see what LJ was trying to do in his last 18 months here?  If you could you’re a better man than me!!!

[ooRya]

16 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I think he’s happy to play a pragmatic brand of football, that involves quite a bit / lot  of direct football (it is not hoofball like Wimbledon or Cambridge).  I use the word happy and pragmatic, because he realises the risks of trying to play “total football” with the players he has available to him.  We don’t smash it every time we get it, but we don’t try to play too much in our own third, especially if pressed, either.   In some respects I wish we did play hoofball, and set up accordingly.  We are a bit in a rock and a hard place.

I do think we need to stop using 9 months rationale.  The squad was ripped apart in the summer….his football “plan” started pre-season.  You can’t really put a plan into place for this season during last season, as virtually half the squad left / were leaving.  If you want to moan about the plan this season, that is a much better discussion base.

As for training, we don’t know what they do.  Robinstv shows 5 mins of stretching and 5 mins of small-sided games / technical basics.  It’s not a good cross-section of what they do, it’s pretty stuff for the camera.  We don’t see the 11v11 stuff we are told Nige uses a fair bit.  We obviously never see a tactical briefing for the game ahead or debrief of the previous game.  We don’t see set-piece training….which has shown massive improvements both defensively and offensively.

I don’t disagree with the fact we are struggling.  Players go into their shells after a bad pass, etc.  Some of that is down to the manager to resolve, I accept.

Could you see what LJ was trying to do in his last 18 months here?  If you could you’re a better man than me!!!

Nice reply.

OK, "hoofball" is probably not the right term, as they do at least try to direct their long punts upfield, but it is still a style, that by it's very nature is set up to fail more often than not.

In answer to your last question (and please let's not turn this into an LJ thread! ) I accept that he kind of lost his way towards the end, and it was probably the right time for him to move on, but I would have more confidence in LJ keeping us up this season than I do in NP

[Davefevs]

16 minutes ago, ooRya said:

Nice reply.

OK, "hoofball" is probably not the right term, as they do at least try to direct their long punts upfield, but it is still a style, that by it's very nature is set up to fail more often than not.

In answer to your last question (and please let's not turn this into an LJ thread! ) I accept that he kind of lost his way towards the end, and it was probably the right time for him to move on, but I would have more confidence in LJ keeping us up this season than I do in NP

LJ comments banned from this point on

Direct play is undoubtedly a game of percentages at times.

I won’t bombard you with stats but would you say we played more football in the opening weeks of the season than currently.  As a general overview, I’d say yes.  There were more passages of play in those early weeks than of late.  We’ve seen flashes lately - Birmingham (a) first half.  We were a bit sloppy with our passing in the final third, but we did get it down and play, we managed to pass through the lines. It went to pot when James went off injured.  I’d say there were signs v Blackburn of an ability to create passing moves, and v Stoke in the 15 minutes either side of h-t.  Williams influence undoubtedly.  He gets others playing too, e.g. Bakinson.

What I’m trying to say is the intention is there to try to play.  So I don’t believe Nige is setting them up to “bomb it”.  But there is a combination of being risk averse to trying to play out, coupled with the application / effort required to keep making runs to become a passing option.

Much is said about we tire because we chase the ball around.  I’m sure there’s a fair bit of truth in that.  But I don’t think we work hard enough when we have the ball.  We see a lot of runs away from the ball, almost enticing the player on the ball to try the “Hoddle pass”.  That is fine, when it’s coordinated with someone coming short.  I agree with JonD re Weimann / Martin.  It ought to be a decent enough partnership (on paper), but they both can’t run long at the same time.  Nor can it always be Martin who comes short, because that is easily dealt with.  The two have got to do better as a pair.  I actually thought Wells and Conway showed really good ability and understanding to “tow” each other around the pitch the couple of times they played last season.  They seemed to instinctively know when one would drop and the other would spin.  Think it was Luton where they ran them ragged first half.  Back to tiredness, whilst 3 or 4 players are working hard to make runs, the others are resting, waiting for their turn to join the 3 or 4, as they join someone who has been working hard gets their rest.  It’s obviously not as simple as I make out, but you get the gist.  This is what i think Fleming meant by poor application.  And I think you’ll see on Saturday someone makes a couple of runs, doesn’t get the ball and stops making those runs.  You just have to keep doing them. 

I think some of the players got used to playing with better players, and as they’ve left the squad, it’s exposed some of these players.  I look at someone like Jay Dasilva, who is a good player imho.  But he needs a CM and a LW who’s gonna collaborate with him, either give him good first time passing options (inside or down the line), or use their movement, together with his good first touch to suck his man in, then he drifts infield off of them.  There us not enough hard work to help a teammate.  Dasilva and Pack were a really good combo.

Anyway, I’ll have to rely on highlights and OTIB on Saturday evening to see if anything improves.

[BigTone]

On 28/11/2021 at 14:22, dREDful said:

Utterly pathetic performance from a bunch of gutless and incapable footballers. 

This side wouldn't challenge for the playoffs in League One and that's the shocking reality of where we are. 

The club itself has earned its place in the Championship and despite several disappointing past campaigns has earned the right to remain. What waits to be seen is whether the current management & squad can claim the same this year.

[Wrongagain]

Hoofball constantly mentioned, something else is defo needed, spellchecker got it right, the auto correction is Goofball!

In the last couple of matches how many of Bents’ Goofballs actually went to city players? no more than one in 20, strange the ball goes into a crowd when there is almost always a wide unmarked player!

[Davefevs]

20 minutes ago, dave36 said:

Hoofball constantly mentioned, something else is defo needed, spellchecker got it right, the auto correction is Goofball!

In the last couple of matches how many of Bents’ Goofballs actually went to city players? no more than one in 20, strange the ball goes into a crowd when there is almost always a wide unmarked player!

Quite a high proportion do go to a City player….it’s what happens next that is the problem. A glance to nobody, a ball dropping to an opponent, etc.  Forest (h) was a game where I saw a disproportionate number of balls drop to their players off of the initial “challenge”.  We don’t recover enough possession from those situations.  When we do, we actually get to build an attack from the halfway line.

[Daniro]

On 29/11/2021 at 14:56, Bobby kellard hero said:

Ha ha.Remember that well

Does anyone remember a game down the Gate when a whole load of cars drove around the side of the pitch?  It must have been some kind of advertising?  I remember people singing DIcks Out while they were on the way round.   Or maybe it was just a dream - I was only a kid at the time

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, Daniro said:

Does anyone remember a game down the Gate when a whole load of cars drove around the side of the pitch?  It must have been some kind of advertising?  I remember people singing DIcks Out while they were on the way round.   Or maybe it was just a dream - I was only a kid at the time

Happened quite a lot I think, certainly remember it on more than one occasion.