50 Transfers

[Numero Uno]

8 minutes ago, Harry said:

The list of 12 was, in chronological order:

Tanner, Atkinson, King, James, Simpson, Brunt, Martin, J Williams, Wells, Rodri, A Williams, Nagy. 
Dave kindly added Mariappa & Lansbury.

Only 1 of those last 14 permanent signings started yesterday. That’s not a good look. 

 

And of those 14 five are no longer at the club and at least two more would be shown the door tomorrow by many supporters!!

[Harry]

15 minutes ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

Really interesting point. What are the same stats for every other club in the Championship?

Are we the same, better or worse when it comes to transfer turnover? Stats in isolation may be shocking yet others may be more shocking. 

It would also interesting to see whether the high signings v low signings equals better/worse performance.

The points you continually make Harry are incredibly relevant when put in the exact same context of other clubs in our division and specifically those who are promoted, relegated or have points deductions.

Fair question. 
I’m not gonna waste 2 hours going through the whole league but let’s take Sheff Utd yesterday. They started 6 players who they’d signed in the last 3 windows. 
I’m also watching Qpr right now. They’ve started 7 players who they’d signed in the last 3 windows. 
Ours yesterday was 1. 

[bpexile]

1 hour ago, Harry said:

I was having a little bit of a wonder about our starting line up yesterday and how it was put together. 
I found it quite interesting that to get to the 8 non-academy players we started, you have to go back 50 transfers. 
So that’s 50 signings we’ve made, that resulted in the 8 players being fielded yesterday. 
 

That’s over 10 transfer windows - the earliest being O’Dowda in July 16. 
 

We can shorten this period down by stating that only 1 of our last 12 signings started. Read that again. ONE OF OUR LAST TWELVE SIGNINGS!! 
 

So, whilst we all knew there was a stockpiling of players under MA & LJ, since LJ left, things haven’t got any better. 
 

I keep banging on about it, I know some will be bored of me saying it, but our recruitment over the last 4 years has been absolutely shocking. And it hasn’t improved over the last 18 months either. 
 

We need to sort out the recruitment ASAP. We still don’t have a Head of Recruitment. We still don’t have a Chief Scout. We still rely upon an in house database that doesn’t send a scout to watch Cheltenham v Exeter under 18’s last Saturday morning, a database that won’t have a damn clue about Felix Miles or Will Armitage or Alex Hartridge, just like it didn’t have a clue in the past about the likes of Grimes, Watkins, Jay, Key or the likes of Twine, hell let’s even go back further and say Bowen when at Hereford. 
We seem to have once again abandoned the idea that there are potentially good youngsters on our doorstep, and we aren’t thinking about these for the future. 
 

Unless we’ve got 15 absolute diamonds in our youth set up, I sincerely worry about the next few years with the lack of knowledge of local/south west youngsters. 
 

I wouldn't call it banging on Harry, you're simply pointing out the basics of how the club should be run. I would have thought that NP could have addressed this issue by now but perhaps its not in his job description. Our CEO now seems a a very astute & capable person, surely he should be putting things in place to remedy this huge failure of the club.

Sounds to me we need a "Harry" on the job 

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

2 minutes ago, Harry said:

Fair question. 
I’m not gonna waste 2 hours going through the whole league but let’s take Sheff Utd yesterday. They started 6 players who they’d signed in the last 3 windows. 
I’m also watching Qpr right now. They’ve started 7 players who they’d signed in the last 3 windows. 
Ours yesterday was 1. 

I suspect it make take you more than 2 hours, Harry!!

It really is interesting yet what would be illuminating  would be to see the stats for every single club in comparison- surely with such huge data available there is the answer out there ?

@Davefevs?

Or is Harry the new Hegeler with a new and genuinely important line of statistical info?

( new career in the next lockdown)

[sh1t_ref_again]

26 minutes ago, Red Skin said:

I think these comments do @Harry a real disservice.   I find his postings on targets interesting and informative. Though you do sense some (totally understandable) frustration in posts I would not dismiss them as rants made by others.   I would be interested to hear about any connection you had with the club in the past @Harry.

Not intended to be disrespectful or a disservice to Harry as I likewise enjoy the posts. Some have been quite strong recently in their attack on the recruitment within the club, posts often seem to have an inside knowledge of the workings of BCFC hence my question of Harrys past.

[Numero Uno]

21 minutes ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

Really interesting point. What are the same stats for every other club in the Championship?

Are we the same, better or worse when it comes to transfer turnover? Stats in isolation may be shocking yet others may be more shocking. 

It would also interesting to see whether the high signings v low signings equals better/worse performance.

The points you continually make Harry are incredibly relevant when put in the exact same context of other clubs in our division and specifically those who are promoted, relegated or have points deductions.

I think the point is that the structure we have (or certainly did have under our last Fraud of a CEO) doesn't help us. Scouting players is about doing the hard yards and sending people to hundreds of games every season, it's not done on spreadsheets. If you aren't out there watching these players you can bet your bottom dollar your rivals will be. I'm sure many scouts will tell you they probably have to watch those hundreds of games to find that one player who they look at and think "with the right coaching there's a player in there". Sometimes you might be unsure and have to watch a player three or four times before deciding either way. On occasion by being out and about and developing contacts you get players recommended to you perhaps by scouts at top clubs who have looked at a player and think "he's just a little bit short of what we need but the kid can certainly play". You don't get random telephone calls with that information, you need people on the scouting circuit networking. That's the nature of the job and always has been yet the previous CEO of the mighty Bristol City FC seemingly thought they could bin all that and recruit from behind a laptop..........

 

[Harry]

43 minutes ago, sh1t_ref_again said:

Harry - we hear what you say about recruitment and have to take it on face value with regards to how the club is set up and runs this side of the business and what changes NP if any is making. It appears clear to most supporters it is an area that has been awful under MA's watch, with his business plan strategy to SL of trading players to generate profit and I guess with the right recruitment / scouting it could of worked, but has gone badly as we all know.

Your posts on this subject are nearly as often as Hampshire reds calling for the sacking of NP. You obviously have a lot of knowledge on the subject and very frustrated, you appear to have been possible involved with the club at some stage? now for the rest of us who do not know you, I would appreciate to understand your expertise and your past, perhaps you could fill us in on the detail of your prior involvement if any with BCFC and when / why it ended. Appreciate if you can't, but would help to understand your rants.

 

My involvement isn’t really relevant for me to have the opinion I hold but since you ask, I was involved under Sod & Burt and then Cotterill & Burt to the extent that I’d have dialogue with sod or Burt on a pretty much weekly basis. Our conversations and recommendations led to the signings of Flint, Pack, Ayling, Freeman. 
I’m no longer involved due to a young family and no longer having the time to travel the country watching games. I still get about when I can but I no longer consult. I do however still have many contacts from the network of scouts, agents, players, managers I built up back then, so am still well-informed as to some of the ongoings in our recruitment team. 

[sh1t_ref_again]

3 minutes ago, Harry said:

My involvement isn’t really relevant for me to have the opinion I hold but since you ask, I was involved under Sod & Burt and then Cotterill & Burt to the extent that I’d have dialogue with sod or Burt on a pretty much weekly basis. Our conversations and recommendations led to the signings of Flint, Pack, Ayling, Freeman. 
I’m no longer involved due to a young family and no longer having the time to travel the country watching games. I still get about when I can but I no longer consult. I do however still have many contacts from the network of scouts, agents, players, managers I built up back then, so am still well-informed as to some of the ongoings in our recruitment team. 

Thank you for the reply, whilst your involvement is not necessary for an opinion it does add credibility, weight and substance to your views. So is my understanding correct you were a freelance scout?

[Tin Soldier]

@Harryconfirms what most on here have thought for some time. Recruitment has been a shambles.
One of the main reasons why we will probably get relegated this season.

Edited November 29, 2021 by Tin Soldier

[Waconda]

3 minutes ago, Tin Soldier said:

@Harryconfirms what most on here have thought for some time. Recruitment has been a shambles.
One of the main reasons why we will probably get relegated this season.

Didn't Ashton recruit NP ?

[Bodiesaffer]

1 hour ago, gary s said:

Don't forget Tyrone Ming's played for Yate town and Chippenham town before signing for Ipswich by Russell Osman ,what do we look at ?

That’s more depressing, what a missed opportunity. They need to give Brentford a call on how they find these gems..

[Waconda]

6 minutes ago, Bodiesaffer said:

That’s more depressing, what a missed opportunity. They need to give Brentford a call on how they find these gems..

Edited November 29, 2021 by VT05763

[Bodiesaffer]

2 minutes ago, VT05763 said:

You think start to think what might of been..

[Waconda]

3 minutes ago, Bodiesaffer said:

You think start to think what might of been..

Name the team ?

[redapple]

38 minutes ago, Harry said:

My involvement isn’t really relevant for me to have the opinion I hold but since you ask, I was involved under Sod & Burt and then Cotterill & Burt to the extent that I’d have dialogue with sod or Burt on a pretty much weekly basis. Our conversations and recommendations led to the signings of Flint, Pack, Ayling, Freeman. 
I’m no longer involved due to a young family and no longer having the time to travel the country watching games. I still get about when I can but I no longer consult. I do however still have many contacts from the network of scouts, agents, players, managers I built up back then, so am still well-informed as to some of the ongoings in our recruitment team. 

You should be giving Nige a call,  I’m quite happy to lend you my Mrs to babysit. 

[Harry]

1 hour ago, gary s said:

Don't forget Tyrone Ming's played for Yate town and Chippenham town before signing for Ipswich by Russell Osman ,what do we look at ?

 

13 minutes ago, Bodiesaffer said:

That’s more depressing, what a missed opportunity. They need to give Brentford a call on how they find these gems..

All I’ll say on Mings is that Russell Osman had the early heads-up on him as his son was playing in the same team. So I don’t think City was ever an option once Ipswich were involved (via Osman), as they were a bigger team back then. 

[Harry]

3 minutes ago, redapple said:

You should be giving Nige a call,  I’m quite happy to lend you my Mrs to babysit. 

Nah. I’m not hankering after a job or any involvement. I just want them to employ some competence in the recruitment team!! 

[Rob k]

1 minute ago, Harry said:

 

All I’ll say on Mings is that Russell Osman had the early heads-up on him as his son was playing in the same team. So I don’t think City was ever an option once Ipswich were involved (via Osman), as they were a bigger team back then. 

I was also told he didn’t particularly stand out at Yate either…….one of those that looks a big miss in hindsight 

[Bodiesaffer]

5 minutes ago, VT05763 said:

Name the team ?

Yate. 

[Bodiesaffer]

Just now, Bodiesaffer said:

Yate. 

:laugh:

[Waconda]

Just now, Bodiesaffer said:

Yate. 

Nope, not Chippenham either but local.

[Kid in the Riot]

Of ydays starting 11:

8 were signed by LJ (tho 2 resigned by NP)

2 by Holden

0 by NP (excluding resignings)

The remaining player being Benarous. 

And people wonder why the performance was the same as many have been over the past three years.

Literally  nothing has changed. 

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

1 hour ago, Harry said:

The list of 12 was, in chronological order:

Tanner, Atkinson, King, James, Simpson, Brunt, Martin, J Williams, Wells, Rodri, A Williams, Nagy. 
Dave kindly added Mariappa & Lansbury.

Only 1 of those last 14 permanent signings started yesterday. That’s not a good look. 

 

To be fair, at least four of those were only ever going to be short-term signings (Ashley, Rodri, Mariappa, Lansbury, and arguably Brunt too); Nagy was with us for three seasons; James, Joe Williams, Tanner and King are all injured; and all the rest were involved at the weekend.

[Simon bristol]

Harry obviously has a lot of knowledge on this area, but we have obviously recruited cundy tanner and atkinson from lower leagues, pring was from cheltenham I think and has now made the squad for most of this season, and we all know scott came over from geurnsey, and bakinson came from luton with hinds,so these are all transfers from lower leagues for young players.

Edited November 29, 2021 by Simon bristol

[1960maaan]

1 hour ago, Harry said:

The list of 12 was, in chronological order:

Tanner, Atkinson, King, James, Simpson, Brunt, Martin, J Williams, Wells, Rodri, A Williams, Nagy. 
Dave kindly added Mariappa & Lansbury.

Only 1 of those last 14 permanent signings started yesterday. That’s not a good look. 

 

There is a short sighted theme when you look at that list.

Tanner,
Atkinson,
King, 
James, 
Simpson, 
Brunt, 
Martin,
J Williams
Wells,
Rodri,
A Williams,
Nagy. 
Mariappa. 
Lansbury.

Most of those are either short term signings, stop gap signings or desperation signings as we were short of a player. Many were OOC and it makes it look even worse when we aren't planning ahead properly. 6 from 14 players with a view to the future, does explain why we are where we are to some extent.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Harry said:

Fair question. 
I’m not gonna waste 2 hours going through the whole league but let’s take Sheff Utd yesterday. They started 6 players who they’d signed in the last 3 windows. 
I’m also watching Qpr right now. They’ve started 7 players who they’d signed in the last 3 windows. 
Ours yesterday was 1. 

It’s an interesting way of looking at it.

I like any method that attempts to quantify it rather than just be subjective.  It shows how poor our recruitment planning has been.  Nobody expects every deal to be a success.  A while back I tried to do a bit of a “family history” of City transfers from the 14/15 season onwards, e.g. who came in to replace Little (ignore Ayling for this purpose) at RB:

Fredericks,

Bennett (loan)

Matthews (loan - twice)

Pisano

Hunt

Pereira (loan)

Sessegnon (loan)

Mariappa

Simpson

Tanner

….plus Vyner.  That’s 11 players, and I didn’t include Wright, who I saw as a CB.

 

I suspect wingers might be more horrific!

1 hour ago, bpexile said:

I wouldn't call it banging on Harry, you're simply pointing out the basics of how the club should be run. I would have thought that NP could have addressed this issue by now but perhaps its not in his job description. Our CEO now seems a a very astute & capable person, surely he should be putting things in place to remedy this huge failure of the club.

Sounds to me we need a "Harry" on the job 

he needs someone to run the database and build the dashboards!

1 hour ago, Numero Uno said:

I think the point is that the structure we have (or certainly did have under our last Fraud of a CEO) doesn't help us. Scouting players is about doing the hard yards and sending people to hundreds of games every season, it's not done on spreadsheets. If you aren't out there watching these players you can bet your bottom dollar your rivals will be. I'm sure many scouts will tell you they probably have to watch those hundreds of games to find that one player who they look at and think "with the right coaching there's a player in there". Sometimes you might be unsure and have to watch a player three or four times before deciding either way. On occasion by being out and about and developing contacts you get players recommended to you perhaps by scouts at top clubs who have looked at a player and think "he's just a little bit short of what we need but the kid can certainly play". You don't get random telephone calls with that information, you need people on the scouting circuit networking. That's the nature of the job and always has been yet the previous CEO of the mighty Bristol City FC seemingly thought they could bin all that and recruit from behind a laptop..........

 

Video saves a lot of travel, but it doesn’t replace going to matches…,that whole networking stuff for starters, but actually watching the player, what does he do when he’s not in view of the camera?

35 minutes ago, Simon bristol said:

Harry obviously has a lot of knowledge on this area, but we have obviously recruited cundy tanner and atkinson from lower leagues, pring was from cheltenham I think and has now made the squad for most of this season, and we all know scott came over from geurnsey, and bakinson came from luton with hinds,so these are all transfers from lower leagues for young players.

Would be interested who picked up the likes of Pring and Cundy….scouts, Tinnion, etc?  I guess they don’t come from a database.

[Lrrr]

1 hour ago, Rob k said:

I was also told he didn’t particularly stand out at Yate either…….one of those that looks a big miss in hindsight 

I was told Ipswich saw someone who had all the physical attributes to be a top player who they could teach the game and skills to and help them develop to the required standard 

[Mr Popodopolous]

The posts by @Harry on recruitment etc are of course interesting and detailed and a good read but perhaps at times there is a bit of tunnel vision That might not be entirely the right turn of phrase but he never mentions e.g. foreign players- and their increasing number at this level. In the last few seasons there have been plenty of bargains or relative bargains to be had, admittedly perhaps not so much post Brexit, in that market. Tunnel vision the wrong term but do your posts or similar on your preferred approach risk fishing in too small a pool?

As to the recruitment bits, Brentford...they are quite heavy on the data and analytics front but of course by no means is it solely that.

Can list a range of players who have come from abroad in recent times to Championship clubs with good success...would his approach factor in any of these? Excluding ones pumped up by Parachute Payments at times of course, subject to fee and wages.

@Davefevs I think some of those RBs were reasonable tbh- some were not of course and 11 in 5 or 6 years is terrible churn! Fredericks has gone on to have a reasonable career, thought Pisano had his good points and bad points, Pereira and Hunt had their uses- again good and bad, Bennett- was he under Cotts or am I thinking of someone else? If under Cotts, more of an RWB as the back 3 thing. Matthews first loan was impressive, second was awful- Fulham at home in February 2017 sticks in the mind.

Edited November 29, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Robin-hugh-blind]

2 hours ago, Harry said:

My involvement isn’t really relevant for me to have the opinion I hold but since you ask, I was involved under Sod & Burt and then Cotterill & Burt to the extent that I’d have dialogue with sod or Burt on a pretty much weekly basis. Our conversations and recommendations led to the signings of Flint, Pack, Ayling, Freeman. 
I’m no longer involved due to a young family and no longer having the time to travel the country watching games. I still get about when I can but I no longer consult. I do however still have many contacts from the network of scouts, agents, players, managers I built up back then, so am still well-informed as to some of the ongoings in our recruitment team. 

Should be a Leeds or Cardiff scout then

[Harry]

1 hour ago, Simon bristol said:

Harry obviously has a lot of knowledge on this area, but we have obviously recruited cundy tanner and atkinson from lower leagues, pring was from cheltenham I think and has now made the squad for most of this season, and we all know scott came over from geurnsey, and bakinson came from luton with hinds,so these are all transfers from lower leagues for young players.

 

49 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 

Would be interested who picked up the likes of Pring and Cundy….scouts, Tinnion, etc?  I guess they don’t come from a database.

Pring came from my group. We watched him dozens of times for Cheltenham youth. 
Cundy was first tracked when on loan at Gloucester. 

Edited November 29, 2021 by Harry