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Sell Massengo?


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1 hour ago, Redrascal2 said:

A few decent tackles might be useful for a midfield player as well.

According to Whoscored he averages considerably higher tackles per game than Bakinson, Williams and King, and more interceptions than Bakinson, Williams, King and James. So he's actually pretty decent in that regard.

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Just now, DaveF said:

According to Whoscored he averages considerably higher tackles per game than Bakinson, Williams and King, and more interceptions than Bakinson, Williams, King and James. So he's actually pretty decent in that regard.

Can't believe how many people in the thread don't rate him. One of the best (and youngest!) In the team

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25 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

Glad to hear that. However i feel if we are approached at any decent level by any decent club he will be gone with the appropriate sell on the same as the rest of them. IMO we are not in a position to be to picky on where we raise the funds, no matter what the club propaganda/ists might say! 

My statement was more that I don’t think anyone will come in for that soon, rather than us turning down offers.  As you say if someone offers us the right money, we will take it.

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14 minutes ago, DaveF said:

According to Whoscored he averages considerably higher tackles per game than Bakinson, Williams and King, and more interceptions than Bakinson, Williams, King and James. So he's actually pretty decent in that regard.

I am sure you are right but I would not have believed it.

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I can’t see that HNM will sign a new contract - why would a player with potential like him want to spend more years not developing his game under our current dinasour coaching? Work your arse off for 95 minutes trying to retrieve the ball that’s being constantly lost due to lumping it long either to a striker who is running away and hiding or to one who couldn’t make the ball stick if his boots were covered in superglue?  No thanks. In his place I’d be looking at better options.
 

So, yes, probably we have to see if another club wants to take him though it means another big loss on investment, because we won’t get what we put in but we have to get something.
 

Personally I’d love him to stay and be developed as he should be in a team that doesn’t just play hoof ball.  Apparently that’s not possible though because we’re in a ‘development phase’ where we can’t expect any actual passing and movement for at least another 2 years.  Far too late for HNM and probably a few others too.  I guess we should look to offload them all to free up funds for more Leicester old timers who can keep the bench and the treatment room warm. 

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20 minutes ago, DaveF said:

According to Whoscored he averages considerably higher tackles per game than Bakinson, Williams and King, and more interceptions than Bakinson, Williams, King and James. So he's actually pretty decent in that regard.

OK @DaveF I can see you are a fan of his. I don't want to suggest he isn't any good. He's certainly had some good games and for his age has done pretty well. I get that there is more to football than worldie goals and defence-splitting passes. He has energy and effort no doubt. Jury is out on whether he has what it takes to command a significant fee for me though - at this point.

It's great winning tackles and intecepting passes but I'm not sure he does that well enough, without other aspects to his game, to attract a bigger club. 

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4 hours ago, DaveF said:

Yes if he's not dribbling past 4 players,  scoring 30 yarders, playing Hollywood passes or taking corners and free kicks he must be rubbish.

I suppose the question is, in how many games is it, when has Massengo scored from one yard let alone 30? I'm pretty sure he hasn't scored once yet, not ONE single goal in two and a half years, some potential that is - Scott has beat that and so will Benarous over the next few weeks. Even George sodding Tanner has beat that. When has he assisted one goal, let alone sprayed Hollywood passes about? Why is he behind an 18 year old kid in the set piece taking order? Have you ever seen him go past a couple of players and then follow it up with a FINAL BALL? Does he sink a few tackles and stop the opposition playing? Add all that together and I don't see anyone paying us £10m to take the lad off our hands, or even £2m for that matter. He seems to be a "nearly but not quite" player to me. Almost does something great, nearly had a great game blah blah.

For clubs to pay £10m for a young midfield player, which is the sort of dosh we would be looking as a return on Massengo given the outlay, there would have to be some evidence that the kid can take a game by the scruff of the neck. With Massengo there are bright bits of play but I'm struggling to see what he actually does in terms of affecting the game. I would rather not say that but I'm struggling to think anything else.

 

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18 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Our squad’s value has dropped off a cliff.

If any of them were to be sold, I think our the highest fee we’d get would be for Kalas.  Problem is, he’s sat with an asset value of £3m in January, so we have to sell him for a fair chunk to have just to re-invest.  What might we get £5m, £6m at most if the right club came in.  And to be honest, controversial as it might sound, freeing up c£25k p.w. is not to be sniffed at.

Whilst I like Bentley, I’m sure from a scouting perspective you’d be highlighting command of his area, poor decision making with the ball in hand or at feet, starting position when ball is up the pitch is too deep.  I don’t think you’d get much more than we paid for him (£2-3m).

If Massengo was to be sold, any chance of a sizeable fee is based on potential…which is fair enough.  I think he will go on to very good things, chances are it won’t be with us. We’d be in a better position if we could get his contract extended first.

Beyond that I’m struggling.

It's not gospel, but transfermarkt broadly agrees with you. It has Kalas at 4.5m, and Bentley at 3m - they list in Euros of course, so in pounds you're looking at about 85% of those values.

They give Massengo a 4m Euro valuation, about £3.4m. About fair I'd think?

I'd not actually realised how inexperienced HNM still is. I think I see him as a key part of our squad now, but he's actually only got 66 league appearances for us. 25 in 19/20, 27 last season, and 14 so far this term. It's 4,387 minutes, equivalent to 48 games and 66 minutes. I don't know how relevant that is to his transfer value, probably less so than the length of his contract - which come the summer will have one year left I believe.

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18 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Our squad’s value has dropped off a cliff.

If any of them were to be sold, I think our the highest fee we’d get would be for Kalas.  Problem is, he’s sat with an asset value of £3m in January, so we have to sell him for a fair chunk to have just to re-invest.  What might we get £5m, £6m at most if the right club came in.  And to be honest, controversial as it might sound, freeing up c£25k p.w. is not to be sniffed at.

Whilst I like Bentley, I’m sure from a scouting perspective you’d be highlighting command of his area, poor decision making with the ball in hand or at feet, starting position when ball is up the pitch is too deep.  I don’t think you’d get much more than we paid for him (£2-3m).

If Massengo was to be sold, any chance of a sizeable fee is based on potential…which is fair enough.  I think he will go on to very good things, chances are it won’t be with us. We’d be in a better position if we could get his contract extended first.

Beyond that I’m struggling.

A sobering analysis there Dave.

I'd add, that purely from a non-statistical, fans emotional view point, every transfer window I also think about the players i'd be worried about losing - I genuinely wouldn't be concerned about losing any player this Jan from the first team squad, bar perhaps Kalas. You might have said Williams but now he's out till Jan I can't see him going. 

(I'd be sad to see Scott or Benerous go but I don't think we'd be pushed into selling them anytime soon)

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10 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

It's not gospel, but transfermarkt broadly agrees with you. It has Kalas at 4.5m, and Bentley at 3m - they list in Euros of course, so in pounds you're looking at about 85% of those values.

They give Massengo a 4m Euro valuation, about £3.4m. About fair I'd think?

I'd not actually realised how inexperienced HNM still is. I think I see him as a key part of our squad now, but he's actually only got 66 league appearances for us. 25 in 19/20, 27 last season, and 14 so far this term. It's 4,387 minutes, equivalent to 48 games and 66 minutes. I don't know how relevant that is to his transfer value, probably less so than the length of his contract - which come the summer will have one year left I believe.

As you know I have a dash on tableau with amortisation year on year, and I think at this current time with the depressed transfer market, any fee you can get over amortised value for the likes of Kalas, Bentley and Massengo will be good.  For other players, Wells, Palmer, value will be lower than their amortised value.  And that is gonna be the balancing act for FFP for the next 6,12,18 months.

Where we can repair the damage is with the likes of Semenyo, Scott, Benarous, Conway, etc who cost us nothing, Tanner who cost us next to nothing, and Atkinson who will hopefully grow into a high value player.  But it requires careful balancing of the books in the meantime.

Bit depressing isn’t it.

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I'm not sure how any of us can decide who would be beneficial to sell or keep.

Firstly...we need to know what type of football wishes to play. Do we know that yet...I certainly don't.

Once we know that...you buy, keep or release, depending on who suits.

Imo...you can't just buy and sell regardless. Massengo might be perfect for what NP wants...or he might be useless...we just don't know.

Players on paper are one thing, they are completely useless if they don't fit a system. 

Galiticos don't work...a team works.

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19 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Our squad’s value has dropped off a cliff.

If any of them were to be sold, I think our the highest fee we’d get would be for Kalas.  Problem is, he’s sat with an asset value of £3m in January, so we have to sell him for a fair chunk to have just to re-invest.  What might we get £5m, £6m at most if the right club came in.  And to be honest, controversial as it might sound, freeing up c£25k p.w. is not to be sniffed at.

Whilst I like Bentley, I’m sure from a scouting perspective you’d be highlighting command of his area, poor decision making with the ball in hand or at feet, starting position when ball is up the pitch is too deep.  I don’t think you’d get much more than we paid for him (£2-3m).

If Massengo was to be sold, any chance of a sizeable fee is based on potential…which is fair enough.  I think he will go on to very good things, chances are it won’t be with us. We’d be in a better position if we could get his contract extended first.

Beyond that I’m struggling.

Any thoughts on Fisher at MK Dons Dave?

Think he's got potential as a decent goalkeeper, could be an area we 'trade'.

23 now, so room to improve still. And if they fail to go up probably won't have too high of a fee.

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3 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

Any thoughts on Fisher at MK Dons Dave?

Think he's got potential as a decent goalkeeper, could be an area we 'trade'.

23 now, so room to improve still. And if they fail to go up probably won't have too high of a fee.

No, not really.  If we are talking highlights on Quest type stuff he looks solid, decent build.

Im sure others have seen much more of him than me.

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21 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Bit depressing isn’t it.

What is? The general lack of funding available due to the need to comply with P&S or the fact that because of that we will be selling the young academy trained, sometimes Bristol born, lads in order to keep/fund the retention or purchase of older expensive guys who have no attachment to the Club or area? For me its the latter. I hope one day I get to see a Bristol born academy player play the bulk of his career at Ashton Gate, but I suspect it is unlikely.

I know that is a romantic hope, and football is business, and business is money. But it still depresses me to see us selling Kelly, Bryan, Reid, and likely Conway, Scott (yes I know he is from Guernsey) and others whilst paying god knows how much to Martin, Wells, O'dowda and the litany of others that have passed through our Club's doors.

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Just now, ExiledAjax said:

What is? The general lack of funding available due to the need to comply with P&S or the fact that because of that we will be selling the young academy trained, sometimes Bristol born, lads in order to keep/fund the retention or purchase of older expensive guys who have no attachment to the Club or area? For me its the latter. I hope one day I get to see a Bristol born academy player play the bulk of his career at Ashton Gate, but I suspect it is unlikely.

I know that is a romantic hope, and football is business, and business is money. But it still depresses me to see us selling Kelly, Bryan, Reid, and likely Conway, Scott (yes I know he is from Guernsey) and others whilst paying god knows how much to Martin, Wells, O'dowda and the litany of others that have passed through our Club's doors.

Nice yin-yang

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Give the kid a pheckin break................he is 20 years of age, he will get better, given time.   The idea of trying to sell HNM is a  dumb idea, and should not be even considered IMHO.  We should be extending his contract.........and NOT even contemplating selling him.            

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31 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Nice yin-yang

I'm feeling miserable now ?

I don't want to sell HNM. If what you are saying is that unless we get >his amortisation value then it's not financially worth it, then that gives me some hope of retaining him this season.

Personally I'd say he should get an extension. Hypothetically if we extend him for three years, he's then contracted until 2026. Therefore come summer 2025 we would have a player with a year on his contract, aged 24, with something in the region of 200 Championship appearances* under his belt, and more than 13,000 minutes played for BCFC** (all assuming no further major injuries, continued selection etc, etc.). Correct me if I am wrong as well but by that point his initial transfer fee would have been amortised away, and his only cost to us would be wages, so any fee received would be pure profit? If so then I'd say that would be the time to sell him.

It's long term planning, and obviously there are so many unknowns between now and summer 2025, but to cash in now, even in the dire straits that we are in, would seem short-sighted.

*the maximum would be 230 - there's 26 more games this season, plus a maximum of 138 across 2022/23, 2023/24, and 2024/25, add that to his 66 current league apps and it's 230.

**200 multiplied by his current average of 66.5 minutes per app.

2 hours ago, Numero Uno said:

when has Massengo scored from one yard let alone 30? I'm pretty sure he hasn't scored once yet

He's actually never scored a professional goal, at any club, or for the French age group teams he has played for. He has two assists, both for Monaco B in the fourth tier of French football. It's not what he does, and isn't just whilst playing for us that he's not directly contributed to the final stages of sticking the thing in the net.

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33 minutes ago, maxjak said:

Give the kid a pheckin break................he is 20 years of age, he will get better, given time.   The idea of trying to sell HNM is a  dumb idea, and should not be even considered IMHO.  We should be extending his contract.........and NOT even contemplating selling him.            

I don’t think anyone is saying Massengo is shit BUT going back to the original post could we sell him for an amount that would be worth considering?

If I was a Prem chasing or Prem team what would he give me in terms of a significant outlay? Does he get you a goal? Does he set up goals for others? If neither of those is he a lower league Kante that breaks up opposition play? If I’m paying millions I want him to PRODUCE on a regular basis not have fleeting good moments.

He’s still relatively young and should get better but my point is I look at Scott who is two years behind HNM in development and the kid has an occasional goal threat and produces a very decent set piece delivery. He has the tools to affect a game that I want to see more of from HNM tbh.

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1 hour ago, ExiledAjax said:

Personally I'd say he should get an extension. Hypothetically if we extend him for three years,

I cannot see any scenario where he would sign an extension- City cannot and should not, make an eye watering offer (he doesn’t impact games enough to warrant this) and he will make more money with a signing on fee and probably accelerate his career away from us - it’s the grim reality of where we are !

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50 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

I'm feeling miserable now ?

I don't want to sell HNM. If what you are saying is that unless we get >his amortisation value then it's not financially worth it, then that gives me some hope of retaining him this season.

Personally I'd say he should get an extension. Hypothetically if we extend him for three years, he's then contracted until 2026. Therefore come summer 2025 we would have a player with a year on his contract, aged 24, with something in the region of 200 Championship appearances* under his belt, and more than 13,000 minutes played for BCFC** (all assuming no further major injuries, continued selection etc, etc.). Correct me if I am wrong as well but by that point his initial transfer fee would have been amortised away, and his only cost to us would be wages, so any fee received would be pure profit? If so then I'd say that would be the time to sell him.

It's long term planning, and obviously there are so many unknowns between now and summer 2025, but to cash in now, even in the dire straits that we are in, would seem short-sighted.

*the maximum would be 230 - there's 26 more games this season, plus a maximum of 138 across 2022/23, 2023/24, and 2024/25, add that to his 66 current league apps and it's 230.

**200 multiplied by his current average of 66.5 minutes per app.

He's actually never scored a professional goal, at any club, or for the French age group teams he has played for. He has two assists, both for Monaco B in the fourth tier of French football. It's not what he does, and isn't just whilst playing for us that he's not directly contributed to the final stages of sticking the thing in the net.

Re amortisation, if we extended his contract in January, you’d take the value at that point and spread it out over the remaining term.

For example, his contract is worth about £1.05m in January (exp 2023), so if you extended until 2026, he’d have 4 1/2 years left, so his contract would be worth £233k in summer 2025.

That make sense?

37 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

I don’t think anyone is saying Massengo is shit BUT going back to the original post could we sell him for an amount that would be worth considering?

If I was a Prem chasing or Prem team what would he give me in terms of a significant outlay? Does he get you a goal? Does he set up goals for others? If neither of those is he a lower league Kante that breaks up opposition play? If I’m paying millions I want him to PRODUCE on a regular basis not have fleeting good moments.

He’s still relatively young and should get better but my point is I look at Scott who is two years behind HNM in development and the kid has an occasional goal threat and produces a very decent set piece delivery. He has the tools to affect a game that I want to see more of from HNM tbh.

What we have seen this season is an improvement in what he does in the final third.  I’m not a big fan of the “hockey assist” (second assist) per se, but there is something in the notion of the importance of the player that assists the assister.  Can’t remember which club opposition analyst it was who spotted that player x got lots of assists, but in the 50 passes he received each game, it was the passes from player y which generally were the ones that led to an assist.  It was player y’s passes that were the ones that found him in the pocket of space that enabled player x to assist player z.

I’m not saying Han is anything like that kind of threat, but I’m also not convinced comparing Alex Scott’s 1s and 0s at this point has tonnes of relevance, as they have played very different roles.  Even against Cardiff when Han played RM, it was a more disciplined role than when Alex Scott played it, which was more like a right winger.  Haha, the bizarre thing was that Han got 2 hockey assists in that game, but I don’t think you’d label a pass to Vyner (assist for Weimann) particularly worthy, but the back-heel to Semenyo (assist for Weimann) you might.

At the point he got injured right at the end of QPR (another hockey assist and some penetrating runs and shots) I thought we were starting to see the best of Han since his early days here.  That injury has knocked him back a bit.  Needs to rebuild his confidence again

Scott, I really like, he’s a baller no doubt, but he’s very different to Han.  If James or Williams were fit, having both of them in alongside / just in front has a nice feel to it, a nice blend.  I could see Alex making himself available really early to get quick passes of Han / Joe / Matty, and bring real tempo to our attacks.

As it currently stands Massengo isn’t gonna fetch £10m.  In some respects that’s good, get him tied down here as per ExiledAjax above, and let him continue his development.  In 18 months, Scott, Williams, Massengo and Benarous might be the transition from mixed / direct football to a passing style so many fans want.   

 

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1 minute ago, Dullmoan Tone said:

I cannot see any scenario where he would sign an extension- City cannot and should not, make an eye watering offer (he doesn’t impact games enough to warrant this) and he will make more money with a signing on fee and probably accelerate his career away from us - it’s the grim reality of where we are !

For me there’s a simple scenario - he’s happy here, he’s getting games, he’s improving, he’s appreciated by the manager.  We will have to wait and see if that scenario plays out.  I don’t think that is far fetched though.  There are no whispers of interest are there?

Richard Gould said they are looking to get him signed up.  Could’ve been an answer not thought through, we’ll have to see.

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On 01/12/2021 at 22:33, Davefevs said:

Our squad’s value has dropped off a cliff.

If any of them were to be sold, I think our the highest fee we’d get would be for Kalas.  Problem is, he’s sat with an asset value of £3m in January, so we have to sell him for a fair chunk to have just to re-invest.  What might we get £5m, £6m at most if the right club came in.  And to be honest, controversial as it might sound, freeing up c£25k p.w. is not to be sniffed at.

Whilst I like Bentley, I’m sure from a scouting perspective you’d be highlighting command of his area, poor decision making with the ball in hand or at feet, starting position when ball is up the pitch is too deep.  I don’t think you’d get much more than we paid for him (£2-3m).

If Massengo was to be sold, any chance of a sizeable fee is based on potential…which is fair enough.  I think he will go on to very good things, chances are it won’t be with us. We’d be in a better position if we could get his contract extended first.

Beyond that I’m struggling.

Transfer values have collapsed for every club to be fair, not just us. Their are several Championship clubs in a far worse situation than us re-wages especially.

We do seem very keen to catastrophize our situation in squad strength and value.

It is a relative, we are not operating inside a " Bristol City disaster bubble".

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46 minutes ago, VT05763 said:

Transfer values have collapsed for every club to be fair, not just us. Their are several Championship clubs in a far worse situation than us re-wages especially.

We do seem very keen to catastrophize our situation in squad strength and value.

It is a relative, we are not operating inside a " Bristol City disaster bubble".

The point is, few clubs became as hugely reliant on it (transfer profit) as an income stream as we did.  It’s not catastrophising (you like that word don’t you?) it, it’s a genuine worry.  When your owner comes out and says the accounts will be “horrible”, do you sit there and ignore it.  Clubs like Blackburn managed to get rid of Armstrong for £15m (£10m after sell-ons to Newcastle), and their training ground to give them some breathing space, but nor did they have a cost base anywhere near ours.

6A1CB554-41AB-4ECD-B9F8-0E35DA2E6B1B.thumb.jpeg.64aa9c23f126c993a2eaf046398db199.jpeg

key: green - still getting PPs.

yellow - no longer getting PPs this season.

red - in trouble (points deduction)

I’d say our “well run club” is one if the most impacted by the collapse of the transfer market because of the way we allowed costs to rise to quickly (with little value in return).  Why do you think we didn’t replace all the players that left in the summer?

I don’t think there are many clubs in a far worse wage situation than us?  Out of interest who are you thinking of, that hasn’t currently got, or had the backing of PPs?  Stoke are the only one I genuinely think might be, but they’ve got another season’s grace before they start to have to think about seriously cutting back.

I certainly wouldn’t be sitting there thinking “it’s ok, there are others worse off”.

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