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Sell Massengo?


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46 minutes ago, VT05763 said:

Transfer values have collapsed for every club to be fair, not just us. Their are several Championship clubs in a far worse situation than us re-wages especially.

We do seem very keen to catastrophize our situation in squad strength and value.

It is a relative, we are not operating inside a " Bristol City disaster bubble".

The point is, few clubs became as hugely reliant on it (transfer profit) as an income stream as we did.  It’s not catastrophising (you like that word don’t you?) it, it’s a genuine worry.  When your owner comes out and says the accounts will be “horrible”, do you sit there and ignore it.  Clubs like Blackburn managed to get rid of Armstrong for £15m (£10m after sell-ons to Newcastle), and their training ground to give them some breathing space, but nor did they have a cost base anywhere near ours.

6A1CB554-41AB-4ECD-B9F8-0E35DA2E6B1B.thumb.jpeg.64aa9c23f126c993a2eaf046398db199.jpeg

key: green - still getting PPs.

yellow - no longer getting PPs this season.

red - in trouble (points deduction)

I’d say our “well run club” is one if the most impacted by the collapse of the transfer market because of the way we allowed costs to rise to quickly (with little value in return).  Why do you think we didn’t replace all the players that left in the summer?

I don’t think there are many clubs in a far worse wage situation than us?  Out of interest who are you thinking of, that hasn’t currently got, or had the backing of PPs?  Stoke are the only one I genuinely think might be, but they’ve got another season’s grace before they start to have to think about seriously cutting back.

I certainly wouldn’t be sitting there thinking “it’s ok, there are others worse off”.

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6 hours ago, Davefevs said:

The point is, few clubs became as hugely reliant on it (transfer profit) as an income stream as we did.  It’s not catastrophising (you like that word don’t you?) it, it’s a genuine worry.  When your owner comes out and says the accounts will be “horrible”, do you sit there and ignore it.  Clubs like Blackburn managed to get rid of Armstrong for £15m (£10m after sell-ons to Newcastle), and their training ground to give them some breathing space, but nor did they have a cost base anywhere near ours.

6A1CB554-41AB-4ECD-B9F8-0E35DA2E6B1B.thumb.jpeg.64aa9c23f126c993a2eaf046398db199.jpeg

key: green - still getting PPs.

yellow - no longer getting PPs this season.

red - in trouble (points deduction)

I’d say our “well run club” is one if the most impacted by the collapse of the transfer market because of the way we allowed costs to rise to quickly (with little value in return).  Why do you think we didn’t replace all the players that left in the summer?

I don’t think there are many clubs in a far worse wage situation than us?  Out of interest who are you thinking of, that hasn’t currently got, or had the backing of PPs?  Stoke are the only one I genuinely think might be, but they’ve got another season’s grace before they start to have to think about seriously cutting back.

I certainly wouldn’t be sitting there thinking “it’s ok, there are others worse off”.

Sure I read that Preston spend 143% of their income on players wages  (ours is around 101% ? I'm sure you will have a chart for this).

They now have no market to sell their normally bang average players to top up the £6 million a year Trevor Hemmings was/is pumping into the club, they have no other revenue streams like us. I would say in that scenario they are worse off.

Just one example.

Found the chart I was thinking of, it is 3 years old but shows without a transfer fees many clubs are going to be in trouble. Not saying our situation isn't bad but we certainly aren't the only ones.

Image

Edited by VT05763
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31 minutes ago, VT05763 said:

Sure I read that Preston spend 143% of their income on players wages  (ours is around 101% ? I'm sure you will have a chart for this).

They now have no market to sell their normally bang average players to top up the £6 million a year Trevor Hemmings was/is pumping into the club, they have no other revenue streams like us. I would say in that scenario they are worse off.

Just one example.

Found the chart I was thinking of, it is 3 years old but shows without a transfer fees many clubs are going to be in trouble. Not saying our situation isn't bad but we certainly aren't the only ones.

Image

Blackburn, Preston, Birmingham and Forest.

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14 hours ago, Numero Uno said:

I don’t think anyone is saying Massengo is shit BUT going back to the original post could we sell him for an amount that would be worth considering?

If I was a Prem chasing or Prem team what would he give me in terms of a significant outlay? Does he get you a goal? Does he set up goals for others? If neither of those is he a lower league Kante that breaks up opposition play? If I’m paying millions I want him to PRODUCE on a regular basis not have fleeting good moments.

He’s still relatively young and should get better but my point is I look at Scott who is two years behind HNM in development and the kid has an occasional goal threat and produces a very decent set piece delivery. He has the tools to affect a game that I want to see more of from HNM tbh.

Players develop at different rates, I feel certain that HNM will come good, I have no evidence,, it's  just my opinion.  It doesn't help that the standard of coaching at City leaves a lot to be desired IMHO. So there is a case for him to get better coaching elsewhere, but i hope he stays.   Fortunately they didn't get hold of Scott until he was 16.........Ha!

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3 hours ago, VT05763 said:

Sure I read that Preston spend 143% of their income on players wages  (ours is around 101% ? I'm sure you will have a chart for this).

They now have no market to sell their normally bang average players to top up the £6 million a year Trevor Hemmings was/is pumping into the club, they have no other revenue streams like us. I would say in that scenario they are worse off.

Just one example.

Found the chart I was thinking of, it is 3 years old but shows without a transfer fees many clubs are going to be in trouble. Not saying our situation isn't bad but we certainly aren't the only ones.

Image

Our average weekly wage of £14k at that point is interesting. Did we get value for money? Did we ****!! This is where we have to careful slating Pearson who has been asked to reduce costs AND try and make us competitive at the same time. Without a major influx of players he has a job on his hands as would the next manager if we canned Pearson. In fact what Manager worth his salt would take us on?

Edited by Numero Uno
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3 hours ago, VT05763 said:

Sure I read that Preston spend 143% of their income on players wages  (ours is around 101% ? I'm sure you will have a chart for this).

They now have no market to sell their normally bang average players to top up the £6 million a year Trevor Hemmings was/is pumping into the club, they have no other revenue streams like us. I would say in that scenario they are worse off.

Just one example.

Found the chart I was thinking of, it is 3 years old but shows without a transfer fees many clubs are going to be in trouble. Not saying our situation isn't bad but we certainly aren't the only ones.

Image

Yeah, several clubs with wages more than turnover.

Its the “other costs” like amortisation and stuff like that widens the jaws between income and overall costs. 

If we go back to City in 15/16.

Income £14.2m Costs £26.7m Wages £17.4m (122% of income 65% of costs) - loss £12.5m (before transfers)

in 19/20

Income £27.9m Costs £62.6m Wages £33.5m (120% of income 54% of costs) - loss £34.7m (before transfers)

Thise other costs as above include amortisation (fees) which grew from £2.7m in 15/16 to £14m in 19/20.  So whilst wages as a ratio of income hasn’t changed much, other things have.  And it’s that which is dragging us into a difficult financial position.

2 hours ago, VT05763 said:

Blackburn, Preston, Birmingham and Forest.

Preston on the other hand.

15/16

Income £10.6m Costs £15m Wages £9m (85% of income 60% of costs) loss of £4.4m (no transfer profit)

19/20

Income £12.6m Costs £29.7m Wages £20.4m (162% of income 69% of costs loss £17.1m (before transfers - £7.9m made)

So, whilst I agree they will definitely need to get wages under control, their losses even without much transfer activity are in the range of the limits of FFP, whereas ours are double.

Ultimately we became a bit of a juggernaut of cost, or a bit like EverGiven stuck in the Suez!!  It’s gonna take some turning around.

Blackburn, as above sold their training ground and Armstrong, plus their cost base is £34.2m not £62.6m!  That’s 55% of ours.  Richard Gould - we need to maximise what we get back for every £1 we spend.  Blackburn doing well on just over half our budget.

Birmingham sold Adams and Bellingham in recent seasons and are back on a more even keel.

Forest are the club I see quite like us.  Cost base of £49.4m, still 21% less than us.  Plus sold Matty Cash last season, which will help.  One to keep an eye on.  As above, next season Stoke might become the one to see in trouble.

Edited by Davefevs
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3 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Our average weekly wage of £14k at that point is interesting. Did we get value for money? Did we ****!! This is where we have to careful slating Pearson who has been asked to reduce costs AND try and make us competitive at the same time. Without a major influx of players he has a job on his hands as would the next manager if we canned Pearson. In fact what Manager worth his salt would take us on?

Would be interesting to see where our average salary table position is in relation with our current league position.

Pearson who has been asked to reduce costs AND try and make us competitive at the same time - He has certainly struggled with that and as you say perhaps anyone would have but that is "ifs, whats and maybes".

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15 minutes ago, VT05763 said:

Would be interesting to see where our average salary table position is in relation with our current league position.

Pearson who has been asked to reduce costs AND try and make us competitive at the same time - He has certainly struggled with that and as you say perhaps anyone would have but that is "ifs, whats and maybes".

Take the source of data for what it is, Football manager will be a decent enough ballpark.

This is worth a read, if only for the pics.

https://andywatsonsport.wordpress.com/2021/12/02/wage-budgets-in-the-championship-does-spending-more-mean-more-points/

It probably highlights that we are wasting wages on players who aren’t starting, e.g. Palmer and Wells.

Edited by Davefevs
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Ah, Massengo, a player who is a fish out of water here, mainly because he's on a different level to the rest of the team, his awareness and perception means he's about 5 steps ahead of others and what he tries to do wont come to fruition. 

He's the sort of player us city fans dont get as everything has to be measured in goals, we had the same with, Josh Brownhill, Cole Skuse, Bobby Reid (when in midfield) among others. 

We've been crying out for an energetic midfielder who covers a shed tonne of ground tackles and tries to make possession and or start attacks, but the rest of the team are not there. Could see him move further forward where his football brain would be put to better use, and cant see him go anywhere but upwards and would probably fit in a Brighton/Norwich/Villa or even the Lingard role from Westham last season. 

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2 minutes ago, Tafkarmlf said:

Ah, Massengo, a player who is a fish out of water here, mainly because he's on a different level to the rest of the team, his awareness and perception means he's about 5 steps ahead of others and what he tries to do wont come to fruition. 

He's the sort of player us city fans dont get as everything has to be measured in goals, we had the same with, Josh Brownhill, Cole Skuse, Bobby Reid (when in midfield) among others. 

We've been crying out for an energetic midfielder who covers a shed tonne of ground tackles and tries to make possession and or start attacks, but the rest of the team are not there. Could see him move further forward where his football brain would be put to better use, and cant see him go anywhere but upwards and would probably fit in a Brighton/Norwich/Villa or even the Lingard role from Westham last season. 

Spot on. He'll flourish in a side that plays good football. Would be nice to see him having more attacking freedom where he can press from the front and turn the ball over quickly, but that doesn't suit the rest of the squad.

Think he'll go back to France and do well.

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3 minutes ago, Tafkarmlf said:

Ah, Massengo, a player who is a fish out of water here, mainly because he's on a different level to the rest of the team, his awareness and perception means he's about 5 steps ahead of others and what he tries to do wont come to fruition. 

He's the sort of player us city fans dont get as everything has to be measured in goals, we had the same with, Josh Brownhill, Cole Skuse, Bobby Reid (when in midfield) among others. 

We've been crying out for an energetic midfielder who covers a shed tonne of ground tackles and tries to make possession and or start attacks, but the rest of the team are not there. Could see him move further forward where his football brain would be put to better use, and cant see him go anywhere but upwards and would probably fit in a Brighton/Norwich/Villa or even the Lingard role from Westham last season. 

 

Agreed, I remember seeing a few Martin Kuhl moments like that when he would put through a defence splitting ball only for our forwards to be slow to react.

That isn't a criticism of our team but rather that much of what you are paying for with the best creative players is a waste of money unless you have similar players around them.

Put Lionel Messi in the Accrington squad and he will be a shadow of himself.

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3 hours ago, Eddie Hitler said:

 

Agreed, I remember seeing a few Martin Kuhl moments like that when he would put through a defence splitting ball only for our forwards to be slow to react.

That isn't a criticism of our team but rather that much of what you are paying for with the best creative players is a waste of money unless you have similar players around them.

Put Lionel Messi in the Accrington squad and he will be a shadow of himself.

He'd still score goals rather than none in two and a half years though. It's not a Massengo bashing exercise, more a case of wanting to see him reach the next level and see something measurable in his performance. As someone else mentioned the kid has not scored a PROFESSIONAL GOAL having played a considerable number of games, not one, which from a player being described as creative and for the ability we know he has is simply not good enough and certainly won't see us recoup the considerable outlay we have made on him AT THE MOMENT. Players have to produce at the level we play at, it's a tough business, and that's something Massengo needs to add to his game.

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10 hours ago, Tafkarmlf said:

Ah, Massengo, a player who is a fish out of water here, mainly because he's on a different level to the rest of the team, his awareness and perception means he's about 5 steps ahead of others and what he tries to do wont come to fruition. 

He's the sort of player us city fans dont get as everything has to be measured in goals, we had the same with, Josh Brownhill, Cole Skuse, Bobby Reid (when in midfield) among others. 

I have no idea how old you are, but your observation could apply equally to a young Gerry Gow, when he first broke in to City's first team.

His awareness and ability to spot a move was so far ahead of his teamates that, at times, they would shout at him when he made a fantastic pass (to which they were too slow to react) and some of the crowd would boo him (plus ca change....😆).

Sitting in what was then The Grand Stand, however, we could see exactly what he was trying to do, although, magnanimously, we would refrain from booing the rest of the team 😉.  

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On 02/12/2021 at 18:45, Numero Uno said:

I don’t think anyone is saying Massengo is shit BUT going back to the original post could we sell him for an amount that would be worth considering?

If I was a Prem chasing or Prem team what would he give me in terms of a significant outlay? Does he get you a goal? Does he set up goals for others? If neither of those is he a lower league Kante that breaks up opposition play? If I’m paying millions I want him to PRODUCE on a regular basis not have fleeting good moments.

He’s still relatively young and should get better but my point is I look at Scott who is two years behind HNM in development and the kid has an occasional goal threat and produces a very decent set piece delivery. He has the tools to affect a game that I want to see more of from HNM tbh.

I think the major factor is clubs who buy in January tend to spend a fair amount of money in January - especially in the current climate - buy what they need right now rather than spend on potential. The big six might splurge a few million on a promising talent but I don’t see Man City, Liverpool or Chelsea moving for Massengo, Scott or Benarous at this point.

Beyond that, I don’t think any club in the championship or outside the premier league top six is going to be putting money in January towards potential so I think you are right. We are not likely to receive an offer worth considering for Massengo or any other young player in January.

If players leave, I suspect it would be players like Dasilva, Wells and Palmer and we may well need to take a loss on them AND cover some of their wages to get the bulk of their wages off the wage bill.

Edited by LondonBristolian
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On 02/12/2021 at 05:21, Better Red said:

Looking at the shortcomings of the squad do we need to sell to get the funds to get the 3 players we need.

Massengo, Bakinson, Palmer & JD could offer the opportunity to get a few quid into so Nige can use to invest in the Squad.

Leftback, Midfielder and Striker look the minimum we need to give the squad a much better balance.

The above to return 2 or 3 million between and that should be enough to get at least 2 perm and 1 loan we desperately need to get us clear of relegation.

A left back would allow COD to play as a more traditional winger and also Pring can cover/compete as LB. JD becomes surplus to requirements.

A midfielder capable of starting on rotation with James and Williams allows us to cash in HNM and also get Bakinson out.

A striker maybe on loan should gives enough options to finish the season in the top half of the table.

Not popular I know but HNM impact is minimal in terms of goals and assists.

Also if Williams and James fit will he play anyway.

Massengo he is probably one of the best team players we have, he is young, he has potential, he is getting better and better week in and week out, he still needs time but he is a future worlds class footballer that is going to go along way in his career. We are lucky to have him. I would not be shocked if he actually gets a goal today. Are you saying Massengo, Bakinson etc are only worth a few million ? 

are you saying Messango impact on games is minimal ? I think if you do not have enough money to visit BS3 I understand but if you are watching City play and Massengo who is a delight to watch then I hope you have enough money to updated your tele to watch him

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On 02/12/2021 at 17:36, spudski said:

I'm not sure how any of us can decide who would be beneficial to sell or keep.

Firstly...we need to know what type of football wishes to play. Do we know that yet...I certainly don't.

Once we know that...you buy, keep or release, depending on who suits.

Imo...you can't just buy and sell regardless. Massengo might be perfect for what NP wants...or he might be useless...we just don't know.

Players on paper are one thing, they are completely useless if they don't fit a system. 

Galiticos don't work...a team works.

I agree with this. 

I actually don't think we have a critical lack of quality. 

We have serious problems with the management getting the best out them or using them properly. 

Our total & utter lack of shape, game plan & tactics are our biggest problem, as is the lack of any impact during the games. 

We set up badly and nothing is changed when we are often fortunate not to several goals behind - then the eventual substitutions rarely make sense or have much impact. 

The lack of tactical nouce shown by NP is staggering...! 

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1 hour ago, Bar BS3 said:

I agree with this. 

I actually don't think we have a critical lack of quality. 

We have serious problems with the management getting the best out them or using them properly. 

Our total & utter lack of shape, game plan & tactics are our biggest problem, as is the lack of any impact during the games. 

We set up badly and nothing is changed when we are often fortunate not to several goals behind - then the eventual substitutions rarely make sense or have much impact. 

The lack of tactical nouce shown by NP is staggering...! 

But when some players start we do look reasonably solid (James/Williams/King), which implies that to some extent the players themselves can be responsible for shape or lack of (not sure this is astounding news). If Massengo was as good as some are alleging,  then his defensive positioning would be much,- much better. The argument that he’s just so good that it’s because others aren’t on his wavelength doesn’t wash, the best players make others look better, not worse. He’s a decent player with a lot of promise, but a fair way off being ready to deliver week in week out at this level.  

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5 minutes ago, The Swan and Cemetery said:

But when some players start we do look reasonably solid (James/Williams/King), which implies that to some extent the players themselves can be responsible for shape or lack of (not sure this is astounding news). If Massengo was as good as some are alleging,  then his defensive positioning would be much,- much better. The argument that he’s just so good that it’s because others aren’t on his wavelength doesn’t wash, the best players make others look better, not worse. He’s a decent player with a lot of promise, but a fair way off being ready to deliver week in week out at this level.  

I agree that Massengo has not been that good overall this season. Still needs to improve a lot defensively and all on the ball too. But then most have underperformed.

I wouldn't say we have looked reasonably solid even with James in there or James and King. So once they're back if we go back to how we had been playing when they were previously in the side then it will still not be good enough imo.

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27 minutes ago, The Swan and Cemetery said:

But when some players start we do look reasonably solid (James/Williams/King), which implies that to some extent the players themselves can be responsible for shape or lack of (not sure this is astounding news). If Massengo was as good as some are alleging,  then his defensive positioning would be much,- much better. The argument that he’s just so good that it’s because others aren’t on his wavelength doesn’t wash, the best players make others look better, not worse. He’s a decent player with a lot of promise, but a fair way off being ready to deliver week in week out at this level.  

Yep, keep saying it, players make systems work or not work.  Ultimately, the better teams beat the lesser teams, although in a low scoring game like football, the results don’t always play out.  It’s why we get so many “pub debates” along the lines of “we deserved something today”.

Re Massengo, was looking like he was in form until he got injured late on v QPR, where he had a very influential game playing in the no10 (not sure it suited us as a team though).  A little rumour (nothing to back it up) he had Covid too.  But he’s not been as good in this latter run of games, flashes only.

At 20, you probably need him alongside better than Bakinson and Benarous to see him flourish, and that’s not dissing Massengo, because we saw Bakinson and Benarous benefit from Williams in the two games prior to Sheffield Utd.

We aren’t a good side, and therefore it’s not easy for anyone to reach high levels with any consistency.

Imho Massengo has been okay (average) over the season so far….which isn’t much different from several other players, some good games , some bad games.

I think we need to stop judging players on one game (not aimed at you).

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4 hours ago, LondonBristolian said:

I think the major factor is clubs who buy in January tend to spend a fair amount of money in January - especially in the current climate - buy what they need right now rather than spend on potential. The big six might splurge a few million on a promising talent but I don’t see Man City, Liverpool or Chelsea moving for Massengo, Scott or Benarous at this point.

Beyond that, I don’t think any club in the championship or outside the premier league top six is going to be putting money in January towards potential so I think you are right. We are not likely to receive an offer worth considering for Massengo or any other young player in January.

If players leave, I suspect it would be players like Dasilva, Wells and Palmer and we may well need to take a loss on them AND cover some of their wages to get the bulk of their wages off the wage bill.

Agreed. Maybe look at a swap deal for one or two if anyone will take them off our hands….

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1 hour ago, The Swan and Cemetery said:

But when some players start we do look reasonably solid (James/Williams/King), which implies that to some extent the players themselves can be responsible for shape or lack of (not sure this is astounding news). If Massengo was as good as some are alleging,  then his defensive positioning would be much,- much better. The argument that he’s just so good that it’s because others aren’t on his wavelength doesn’t wash, the best players make others look better, not worse. He’s a decent player with a lot of promise, but a fair way off being ready to deliver week in week out at this level.  

I agree, but Bakinson must be a nightmare to play along side! 

After all his early promise, when he broke into the team & looked like a new Patrick Viera... He now looks more like a new Tony Dining..! 

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16 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

I agree, but Bakinson must be a nightmare to play along side! 

After all his early promise, when he broke into the team & looked like a new Patrick Viera... He now looks more like a new Tony Dining..! 

But can still do Vieira bits and bobs! It’s the inconsistency that must be difficult to manage for. Rather than yo-yo between Vieira and Dinning, we need him to be consistently Rennie (Dave not Dave…). 

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1 hour ago, The Swan and Cemetery said:

But can still do Vieira bits and bobs! It’s the inconsistency that must be difficult to manage for. Rather than yo-yo between Vieira and Dinning, we need him to be consistently Rennie (Dave not Dave…). 

Gary Shelton would do just nicely..! 

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3 hours ago, Red Army 75 said:

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/bristol-city-han-noah-massengo-6355410
 

Need him to sign a new contract. Or sell him in summer can’t afford to have another Diedhiou episode. 

The wording in that 'interview' suggests it was translated from a French interview, uncredited as far as I can see.  Maybe that means he is still on the radar over there at least.

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22 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

The wording in that 'interview' suggests it was translated from a French interview, uncredited as far as I can see.  Maybe that means he is still on the radar over there at least.

RMC Sport - a satellite/cable sports channel, concentrating mainly on football.

I wouldn't say he is necessarily 'on the radar' over here, rather that the article was of minority interest - similar to that young Scottish footballer (whose name I can't remember) who left Nottingham Forest to play in Germany and came back recently to play for Sheffield United. 

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