Germany impose maximum of 15,000 footy fans at games

[Never to the dark side]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/59510506

[frenchred]

What must it be like to have a decisive government and not be led by a bungling, lying buffoon 

[phantom]

1 minute ago, frenchred said:

What must it be like to have a decisive government and not be led by a bungling, lying buffoon 

Great let's send yet another thread off topic!! 

[Wiltshire robin]

16 minutes ago, phantom said:

Great let's send yet another thread off topic!! 

I would normally agree but it’s relevant and also phantoms statement is true.

[Silvio Dante]

Pfft.

Rovers have been doing their bit for the pandemic by limiting their attendances to 1/3 of that.

[Blagdon red]

There have been limits in place in most German states for most of this season. And in all cases admission to stadia has been subject to showing proof of vaccination, recovery or a negative test (within the past 24 hours). Masks in all queues, on concourses etc. have also been mandatory.

Sensible precautions IMHO. And at the games I've been to the procedures have worked well and fans have adhered to the rules.

[PHILINFRANCE]

Awful timing, as, on Saturday evening, it’s the top of the table clash between Borussia Dortmund vs Bayern Munich!

[Clutton Caveman]

14 hours ago, frenchred said:

What must it be like to have a decisive government and not be led by a bungling, lying buffoon 

They were really decisive when it came to securing vaccines weren't they??. When we were 75% double jabbed they were just about getting going and that why they are suffering now. Also when their fantastic  government decided to spread doubt over the Astro Zeneca vaccine to deflect from their failure to secure supplies fear spread leading to poor uptake rates, which they still suffer from today.

Sorry but you got this one very wrong

[GrahamC]

2 hours ago, Clutton Caveman said:

They were really decisive when it came to securing vaccines weren't they??. When we were 75% double jabbed they were just about getting going and that why they are suffering now. Also when their fantastic  government decided to spread doubt over the Astro Zeneca vaccine to deflect from their failure to secure supplies fear spread leading to poor uptake rates, which they still suffer from today.

Sorry but you got this one very wrong

Ladies & Gentlemen, exhibit A in the case for why the sad Benny Hill tribute act got elected as our PM.

Bertie Booster, serial lying, care home resident killer, come on down..

[Bas's perfect hattrick]

17 hours ago, Blagdon red said:

There have been limits in place in most German states for most of this season. And in all cases admission to stadia has been subject to showing proof of vaccination, recovery or a negative test (within the past 24 hours). Masks in all queues, on concourses etc. have also been mandatory.

Sensible precautions IMHO. And at the games I've been to the procedures have worked well and fans have adhered to the rules.

Along with the reduction in capacity, the government has also introduced '2g plus' rules - meaning you have to be vaccinated/recovered and have a negative test. Unvaccinated people are now completely excluded. 

https://www.dw.com/en/bundesliga-stadiums-to-restrict-attendance-amid-germanys-covid-19-spike/a-59999526

[The Bard]

3 hours ago, Clutton Caveman said:

They were really decisive when it came to securing vaccines weren't they??. When we were 75% double jabbed they were just about getting going and that why they are suffering now. Also when their fantastic  government decided to spread doubt over the Astro Zeneca vaccine to deflect from their failure to secure supplies fear spread leading to poor uptake rates, which they still suffer from today.

Sorry but you got this one very wrong

Germany 103,000 Covid Deaths, 84 Million population

UK 145,000 Covid deaths, 68 Million population

Sorry but that is what really matters isn't it?  Stop swallowing their bullshit

 

[frenchred]

26 minutes ago, The Bard said:

Germany 103,000 Covid Deaths, 84 Million population

UK 145,000 Covid deaths, 68 Million population

Sorry but that is what really matters isn't it?  Stop swallowing their bullshit

 

unfortunately some will believe anything the bumbling buffoon tells them. will try and spin their rhetoric to anyone who will listen.

bungler has blood on his hands

Edited December 3, 2021 by frenchred

[LondonBristolian]

18 hours ago, phantom said:

Great let's send yet another thread off topic!! 

Problem is - nice as it would be for this thread not to descend into political debate - it is really difficult to separate the issue of COVID and the issue of how the pandemic is managed by the governments of different countries. 

I've no idea what I think we should be doing at the moment, mind. I think there's a fair chance that the concerns over Omicron are going to prove to be more dramatic than the reality. Both the vaccines and previous infections are likely to provide some degree of protection. It's like the variant has been in the country for a few weeks and hospital admissions are moving in the right direction and there doesn't seem to be any suggestion this variant is more serious. At the same time, assuming it is all overblown is a Hell of a gamble that - if wrong - means people die. I get why Germany have done this but it doesn't necessarily mean I think we should do the same but I could be completely wrong and Germany could be right.

I do think we should be being cautious until we know more - I'd have no problem with doing a lateral flow test before games and wearing a mask at any point where I wasn't eating or drinking - but I don't know whether I think cautious extends to stripping back attendances and not doing things. 

[Peter1450]

Hard to know who’s correct anymore, have to don a mask to pop into Greggs to buy a sausage roll yet there was a capacity crowd at the Calm down derby the other evening with very few wearing any protection. 

[frenchred]

28 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

Problem is - nice as it would be for this thread not to descend into political debate - it is really difficult to separate the issue of COVID and the issue of how the pandemic is managed by the governments of different countries. 

I've no idea what I think we should be doing at the moment, mind. I think there's a fair chance that the concerns over Omicron are going to prove to be more dramatic than the reality. Both the vaccines and previous infections are likely to provide some degree of protection. It's like the variant has been in the country for a few weeks and hospital admissions are moving in the right direction and there doesn't seem to be any suggestion this variant is more serious. At the same time, assuming it is all overblown is a Hell of a gamble that - if wrong - means people die. I get why Germany have done this but it doesn't necessarily mean I think we should do the same but I could be completely wrong and Germany could be right.

I do think we should be being cautious until we know more - I'd have no problem with doing a lateral flow test before games and wearing a mask at any point where I wasn't eating or drinking - but I don't know whether I think cautious extends to stripping back attendances and not doing things. 

Understand what you are saying mate but remember Germany is in the grip of the delta virus not omicron 

[LondonBristolian]

21 minutes ago, frenchred said:

Understand what you are saying mate but remember Germany is in the grip of the delta virus not omicron 

Fair point - sorry!

[Selred]

1 hour ago, The Bard said:

Germany 103,000 Covid Deaths, 84 Million population

UK 145,000 Covid deaths, 68 Million population

Sorry but that is what really matters isn't it?  Stop swallowing their bullshit

 

 To be fair most have made mistakes. We made massive mistakes at the start, Germany have faltered with vaccines.

They are on 73k cases at the moment per day, we are on circa 50k.

[pillred]

2 hours ago, The Bard said:

Germany 103,000 Covid Deaths, 84 Million population

UK 145,000 Covid deaths, 68 Million population

Sorry but that is what really matters isn't it?  Stop swallowing their bullshit

 

Let's see what the final figures are first, and do Germany count the deaths exactly the same way we do? if not the figures may well be more comparable like for like. I mean death for any reason in the last month if they had had Covid even those killed on the roads or who were in their late 90s. And before you jump down my throat I believe the government have made a lot of mistakes but hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Edited December 3, 2021 by pillred
punctuation

[SecretSam]

6 hours ago, Clutton Caveman said:

They were really decisive when it came to securing vaccines weren't they??. When we were 75% double jabbed they were just about getting going and that why they are suffering now. Also when their fantastic  government decided to spread doubt over the Astro Zeneca vaccine to deflect from their failure to secure supplies fear spread leading to poor uptake rates, which they still suffer from today.

Sorry but you got this one very wrong

When were we "75% double jabbed" when they were "just about getting going"? 

And I think you'll find most of continental Europe has overtaken the UK in vaccination rates.

[SecretSam]

1 hour ago, Selred said:

 To be fair most have made mistakes. We made massive mistakes at the start, Germany have faltered with vaccines.

They are on 73k cases at the moment per day, we are on circa 50k.

The Germans soon caught us up on vaccines. And their case rate has been very, very low compared to ours, then shot up - ours has been around 40k per day for weeks.

[SecretSam]

15 minutes ago, pillred said:

Let's see what the final figures are first, and do Germany count the deaths exactly the same way we do? if not the figures may well be more comparable like for like. I mean death for any reason in the last month if they had had Covid even those killed on the roads or who were in their late 90s. And before you jump down my throat I believe the government have made a lot of mistakes but hindsight is a wonderful thing.

The government were literally warned about this by not one but two major incident exercises. That's not saying other countries haven't got things wrong - they have - but to say our errors are all down to 'hindsight' isn't correct. 

The point about death rates is a good one, although the fatuous RTC example is nonsense - the death certificate wouldn't mention COVID if you'd been squished by a bus; no more than it would mention asthma, or diabetes.

[Portland Bill]

28 minutes ago, pillred said:

Let's see what the final figures are first, and do Germany count the deaths exactly the same way we do? if not the figures may well be more comparable like for like. I mean death for any reason in the last month if they had had Covid even those killed on the roads or who were in their late 90s. And before you jump down my throat I believe the government have made a lot of mistakes but hindsight is a wonderful thing.

It’s not hindsight when Italy ( 3 weeks in front of us at the time) were telling us to lockdown immediately to stop people dying. Wurzel Johnson ignored  the Italian warning, and thousands died in the UK as a direct result of not locking down in time.

 

[Selred]

20 minutes ago, SecretSam said:

The Germans soon caught us up on vaccines. And their case rate has been very, very low compared to ours, then shot up - ours has been around 40k per day for weeks.

They are around 70%, we are around 75%.

They are also seeing double the deaths of us at the moment. They aren’t perfect.
 

[PHILINFRANCE]

6 hours ago, pillred said:

Let's see what the final figures are first, and do Germany count the deaths exactly the same way we do? if not the figures may well be more comparable like for like. I mean death for any reason in the last month if they had had Covid even those killed on the roads or who were in their late 90s. And before you jump down my throat I believe the government have made a lot of mistakes but hindsight is a wonderful thing.

 

6 hours ago, SecretSam said:

The point about death rates is a good one, although the fatuous RTC example is nonsense - the death certificate wouldn't mention COVID if you'd been squished by a bus; no more than it would mention asthma, or diabetes.

You may find this article interesting.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10269921/TOM-UTLEY-mother-laws-death-99-included-daily-Covid-toll.html

I have copy/pasted some of the relevant text should you not wish to read the entire article.

TOM UTLEY: What an absurdity for my wonderful mother-in-law's death at 99 to be included in the daily Covid toll

Many of us have long grown bored and irritated by the daily incantation of the latest Covid death figures, read out to scare us on the evening news bulletins 'like football scores', in my colleague Richard Littlejohn's memorable phrase.

I suspect, therefore, that few will have paid much attention last Saturday, when it was announced that in the latest 24-hour period, 131 people had been reported to have died within 28 days of testing positive for the disease.

For my family, however, that bald figure had a terribly sad resonance, since one of those 131 was my wife's beloved mother, who had died the previous evening at the venerable age of 99.

Despite all the precautions taken by the devoted NHS staff, she contracted Covid in the Oxfordshire hospital where she'd been taken with a broken arm, which she'd suffered in the latest of a series of recent falls.

A long life, then, and I like to think on the whole, a very happy one. As my wife says, we were just lucky to have her for so very long.

All of which brings me at last to the point I wish to make this week. For I reckon it's deeply misleading of the BBC and others to reel off the daily Covid death figures, without putting them in the context of how old these people were at the time of their deaths.

The fact is that when I last saw my mother-in-law in hospital, three weeks before she died and a fortnight before she developed Covid, I knew at a glance that she was well on her way out.

Alarming

She was painfully thin, tired, and only intermittently lucid. Though she was delighted to see her youngest daughter, she also made clear that she'd like to be left to sleep. 

I got the firm impression that she realised her time was up. She'd had enough — and I knew that this was the last time I'd see her alive.

True, Covid may possibly have shortened her life by a few days. But then a mild cold, or another fall, would almost certainly have had the same effect. 

Like so many of the very old, who appear as numbers in the daily Covid death toll, she would have died very soon anyway — with or without Covid. One day, after all, we're all going to die of something.

Wouldn't those daily figures be less alarming if the broadcasters made clear that so many of those who die after testing positive have already outlived the average lifespan — in my mother-in-law's case, by around 17 years?

Meanwhile, shouldn't we worry more about the Covid-free peripheral casualties of the pandemic, whose time in normal circumstances would not have come? 

I'm thinking of the breast cancer victims in their 40s and 50s, and others condemned to die because measures intended to deal with the pandemic have meant their tumours have gone undiagnosed.

Yes, every death of our near and dear is extremely upsetting, no matter when it happens. 

And it's very sad that the joyful celebrations my wife and her sisters were planning for their mother's centenary next year will now come to nothing.

But let's face it, the death of a much-loved nonagenarian, blessed with a firm faith in everlasting life after the grave, is not nearly as traumatic as a life cut down in its prime.

Though my dear mother-in-law may have tested positive for Covid, I reckon it would be more accurate to say simply that she died of old age. God rest her soul, and let light perpetual shine upon her.

[Mr Hankey]

.

Edited December 3, 2021 by Mr Hankey
Can’t be assed to get in to covid arguments

[Sleepy1968]

12 minutes ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

 

You may find this article interesting.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10269921/TOM-UTLEY-mother-laws-death-99-included-daily-Covid-toll.html

I wouldn't p1ss on the daily fail if it was on fire.

9 minutes ago, Mr Hankey said:

I’m not a conspiracy theorist & i do believe that covid is a real thing……but i’m yet to personally know of a single person who has died from this. I know some that have been poorly from this, but not a single death. Can’t just go back into lockdowns every winter. God knows what the finances in German football are going to be like if this carries on.

To date I think their are 145K UK deaths where Covid is noted on the death cert (and this may or may not have been a contributing factor to death). The total UK population is approx 67M. So that's about 0.2% of the population. So as a rule you aren't very likely to know of someone who's died with Covid.

[pillred]

6 hours ago, Portland Bill said:

It’s not hindsight when Italy ( 3 weeks in front of us at the time) were telling us to lockdown immediately to stop people dying. Wurzel Johnson ignored  the Italian warning, and thousands died in the UK as a direct result of not locking down in time.

 

I said the government made mistakes, let's see what the final countdown is, given they did a lot of things right as well, people are far to quick to apportion blame things aren't going to well elsewhere either who knows when the dust finally settles who will come out of this with credit or egg on their faces, I am not yet prepared to place my bet. 

[PHILINFRANCE]

48 minutes ago, Sleepy1968 said:

I wouldn't p1ss on the daily fail if it was on fire.

As is your prerogative.

Nevertheless, should you find yourself with a few minutes to spare one day, you might choose to read it on line; it is good fun.  

I suspect you would be shocked by some of the shocking and blatantly absurd right wing nonsense in some of the articles, but, should you be brave enough, try and continue to the associated comments: a real eye opener.

But, then, should you choose to never read it, your negative comments would seem to lack some substance.   

[MarcusX]

20 hours ago, pillred said:

Let's see what the final figures are first, and do Germany count the deaths exactly the same way we do? if not the figures may well be more comparable like for like. I mean death for any reason in the last month if they had had Covid even those killed on the roads or who were in their late 90s. And before you jump down my throat I believe the government have made a lot of mistakes but hindsight is a wonderful thing.

This is a poor argument tbh deaths are counted officially by death certificate and that count is HIGHER. There's no one getting hit by a bus going down as a covid death on their certificate

[pillred]

48 minutes ago, MarcusX said:

This is a poor argument tbh deaths are counted officially by death certificate and that count is HIGHER. There's no one getting hit by a bus going down as a covid death on their certificate

It's ANY death within 28 days of a positive test, they could have died from anything but it still counts towards the total, that is the wording on the governments own website.