Selred Posted December 3, 2021 Report Share Posted December 3, 2021 1 hour ago, Tafkarmlf said: 7 and 5 goals Joint 12th and joint 21st. I'm not exactly jumping for joy here, with how fantastic it is, Weimann isnt out and out striker for us So Martin 5 Wells 1 Janneh had 2 in the cup Andddd... Lots on 1 Huge number of goals We're 5th/6th lowest scorers in the Championship https://www.espn.co.uk/football/table/_/league/eng.2 Im not convinced that sending our strikers who do scoreon loan is a great decision. I've justified that enough, have a fab Friyay Exactly Weimann isn’t an out and out striker and still could get 15 goals this season. That’s average / upper championship striker stats. It just shows we don’t make enough chances for all players. Britton isn’t a player to make chances for himself. Britton scores against under 23 defences. Wells got a hat trick the other week for the under 23s. Means nothing. If Britton scores a hat full in his games for Woking then let’s talk, right now he hasn’t done it in the mens game. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted December 3, 2021 Report Share Posted December 3, 2021 48 minutes ago, pongo88 said: I agree with a lot of what you said, but not the bit about Le Tissier. He was an attacking midfielder rather than an out and out striker who scored a goal in approx every three games. Someone like that would walk into the current City team I'm on about fitness. Le Tissier wouldn't get in any Championship now. You can't compare fitness levels to the past. If you had flair and skill like Le Tissier, but not an ability to run for 90 mins, you could get away with it back then. In fact if you had skill like him, you could actually use it to overcome lack of fitness. To a greater degree...that's why you saw more ' ballers' back then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1960maaan Posted December 3, 2021 Report Share Posted December 3, 2021 (edited) 21 minutes ago, spudski said: I'm on about fitness. Le Tissier wouldn't get in any Championship now. You can't compare fitness levels to the past. If you had flair and skill like Le Tissier, but not an ability to run for 90 mins, you could get away with it back then. In fact if you had skill like him, you could actually use it to overcome lack of fitness. To a greater degree...that's why you saw more ' ballers' back then. It's the main reason I don't like the old X Vs Y debates. Eras are so different, whether it be Refereeing , fitness , technical ability, pitches or anything else. But, put those certain players in a certain decade and some would adapt. LeTiss had physique and if he was "today" fit he would walk into a top Prem side. Take Emlyn Hughes, he could run all day, and that was on those horrible pitches. If you take player A from a certain decade he won't fit in another, but if you imagine he was brought up in that decade it's a different argument. Plus you have to facter in the beer, everyone was a drinker to some extent. Training was just a way of sweating out the previous nights drink Edited December 3, 2021 by 1960maaan 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted December 3, 2021 Report Share Posted December 3, 2021 2 minutes ago, 1960maaan said: It's the main reason I don't like the old X Vs Y debates. Eras are so different, whether it be Refereeing , fitness , technical ability, pitches or anything else. But, put those certain players in a certain decade and some would adapt. LeTiss had physique and if he was "today" fit he would walk into a top Prem side. Take Emlyn Hughes, he could run all day, and that was on those horrible pitches. If you take player A from a certain decade he won't fit in another, but if you imagine he was brought up in that decade it's a different argument. Plus you have to faster in the beer, everyone was a drinker to some extent. Training was just a way of sweating out the previous nights drink Exactly... however Le Tissier wasn't considered an athlete back then. That's my point...back then you could play to a high level with natural ability, but less natural fitness. Today you can't. If Le Tissier had more fitness back then, I'm sure he would have played more Internationals. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mozo Posted December 3, 2021 Report Share Posted December 3, 2021 6 hours ago, Davefevs said: 100%. Just that some people seem to think they are like for like. They aren’t….but as you say, that’s not a reason why Louis couldn’t give us a different option to say Conway or Bell. Britton and Martin as two up front is an interesting concept 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo88 Posted December 3, 2021 Report Share Posted December 3, 2021 25 minutes ago, spudski said: I'm on about fitness. Le Tissier wouldn't get in any Championship now. You can't compare fitness levels to the past. If you had flair and skill like Le Tissier, but not an ability to run for 90 mins, you could get away with it back then. In fact if you had skill like him, you could actually use it to overcome lack of fitness. To a greater degree...that's why you saw more ' ballers' back then. It’s true that a lot of players from the past were unfit by today’s standards but that doesn’t mean they would be unfit now. The training regime and diet today would make them better players. The entire City team that reached Division 1 with Alan Dicks was unfit by today’s standards, partly because they spent as much time in the pub as they did at the training ground. If they were playing now they would be better players. (I’d rather have an unfit Paul Cheesley than a “fit” Chris Martin). It’s wrong to compare then with now. If you do, you arrive at crazy conclusions. Stanley Mathews who played about 700 league games and over 50 games for England did so at basically walking pace. He couldn’t do that now, but that doesn’t mean that now he would have spent his career in the lower leagues. He was an exceptionally gifted player, so he would have adapted his game to suit modern requirements. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mozo Posted December 3, 2021 Report Share Posted December 3, 2021 2 minutes ago, pongo88 said: It’s true that a lot of players from the past were unfit by today’s standards but that doesn’t mean they would be unfit now. The training regime and diet today would make them better players. The entire City team that reached Division 1 with Alan Dicks was unfit by today’s standards, partly because they spent as much time in the pub as they did at the training ground. If they were playing now they would be better players. (I’d rather have an unfit Paul Cheesley than a “fit” Chris Martin). It’s wrong to compare then with now. If you do, you arrive at crazy conclusions. Stanley Mathews who played about 700 league games and over 50 games for England did so at basically walking pace. He couldn’t do that now, but that doesn’t mean that now he would have spent his career in the lower leagues. He was an exceptionally gifted player, so he would have adapted his game to suit modern requirements. Really good point. But would Jacki have been any different now!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHILINFRANCE Posted December 3, 2021 Report Share Posted December 3, 2021 1 hour ago, 1960maaan said: It's the main reason I don't like the old X Vs Y debates. Eras are so different, whether it be Refereeing , fitness , technical ability, pitches or anything else. But, put those certain players in a certain decade and some would adapt. LeTiss had physique and if he was "today" fit he would walk into a top Prem side. Take Emlyn Hughes, he could run all day, and that was on those horrible pitches. If you take player A from a certain decade he won't fit in another, but if you imagine he was brought up in that decade it's a different argument. Plus you have to facter in the beer, everyone was a drinker to some extent. Training was just a way of sweating out the previous nights drink You ain't seen nothing like the Mighty Emlyn! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo88 Posted December 3, 2021 Report Share Posted December 3, 2021 46 minutes ago, mozo said: Really good point. But would Jacki have been any different now!? I doubt it as he enjoyed his lifestyle more than football. He would be paid more today so he could indulge himself more on his social life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpexile Posted December 3, 2021 Report Share Posted December 3, 2021 1 hour ago, spudski said: I'm on about fitness. Le Tissier wouldn't get in any Championship now. You can't compare fitness levels to the past. If you had flair and skill like Le Tissier, but not an ability to run for 90 mins, you could get away with it back then. In fact if you had skill like him, you could actually use it to overcome lack of fitness. To a greater degree...that's why you saw more ' ballers' back then. I'm thinking Tomlin is a good example of huge ability but not fitness, although I think attitude was his greatest downfall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobintheRed Red Posted December 3, 2021 Report Share Posted December 3, 2021 On 02/12/2021 at 19:26, And Its Smith said: Anyone doubting this move but have serious concerns about Pearson’s judgment at the same time. We really need a presence up front and we are shipping one out on loan. Clearly a long way from ready as can’t even make the bench Maybe face dont fit heard he topped on pearsons door he called him billy big bollocks ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeAman08 Posted December 4, 2021 Report Share Posted December 4, 2021 16 hours ago, Lrrr said: From the Brentford game it wasn’t just the goal, aerially showed he could compete with people at our level, Brentford’s defenders didn’t like trying to handle him. He’s not a standout age wise at 23’s level it’s just City run with very young u23’s teams, most other clubs he’d still be younger/average age. As for his scoring rate at 23’s it’s not just ‘good’ it was a rate of 4 in every 5 or so last season and ended up top scorer in the 23’s league despite having been on loan for half the season. As for the loan all indications are Stockport fed City a line on being keen and then the manager just bombed him off as soon as he joined despite starting well at Torquay, the skeptic in me wondered whether Stockport wanted to take a cog away from Torquay as they were a promotion rival. By the time he was on the pitch he was up against one of their reserve cbs, a midfielder and jansson. The game for them was a stay fit exercise as their spot in playoffs was basically confirmed. Again I am not saying he can’t have a career here. I am saying he is talked about like he should have displaced Chris Martin in the summer. When in reality the club is telling you they don’t rate him. One thing the club has been getting right is bringing through the academy lads when they are ready. Britton currently is quite far down that list. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Isewater Posted December 4, 2021 Report Share Posted December 4, 2021 23 hours ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said: Day of the Triffids? Pulis’s favourite film. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonBristolian Posted December 4, 2021 Report Share Posted December 4, 2021 10 hours ago, bpexile said: I'm thinking Tomlin is a good example of huge ability but not fitness, although I think attitude was his greatest downfall. I suspect attitude and fitness largely come together. The level of fitness needed for today’s game takes a level of discipline and commitment that you need a certain attitude to do. It’s not an attitude I have, for sure! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpexile Posted December 4, 2021 Report Share Posted December 4, 2021 16 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said: I suspect attitude and fitness largely come together. The level of fitness needed for today’s game takes a level of discipline and commitment that you need a certain attitude to do. It’s not an attitude I have, for sure! Agreed, it's total commitment that's needed in today's game Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted December 4, 2021 Report Share Posted December 4, 2021 12 hours ago, pongo88 said: It’s true that a lot of players from the past were unfit by today’s standards but that doesn’t mean they would be unfit now. The training regime and diet today would make them better players. The entire City team that reached Division 1 with Alan Dicks was unfit by today’s standards, partly because they spent as much time in the pub as they did at the training ground. If they were playing now they would be better players. (I’d rather have an unfit Paul Cheesley than a “fit” Chris Martin). It’s wrong to compare then with now. If you do, you arrive at crazy conclusions. Stanley Mathews who played about 700 league games and over 50 games for England did so at basically walking pace. He couldn’t do that now, but that doesn’t mean that now he would have spent his career in the lower leagues. He was an exceptionally gifted player, so he would have adapted his game to suit modern requirements. 11 hours ago, bpexile said: I'm thinking Tomlin is a good example of huge ability but not fitness, although I think attitude was his greatest downfall. Genetics have a lot to do with what fitness level you can achieve, keep and be constant. Then you have to have the right attitude. My point in all my posts in this thread has been about Britton not being genetically able to get to the fitness level required, regardless of good training and attitude. The same can be said of former players mentioned in the thread. How many skillful players have we seen over the years that aren't natural athletes, have the fat gene, or other physical negatives..Molby, Gascoigne, Tomlin etc etc Over the years watching, it's noted how many players that are extremely skillful naturally aren't physically gifted. It's a common theme. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpexile Posted December 4, 2021 Report Share Posted December 4, 2021 2 hours ago, spudski said: Genetics have a lot to do with what fitness level you can achieve, keep and be constant. Then you have to have the right attitude. My point in all my posts in this thread has been about Britton not being genetically able to get to the fitness level required, regardless of good training and attitude. The same can be said of former players mentioned in the thread. How many skillful players have we seen over the years that aren't natural athletes, have the fat gene, or other physical negatives..Molby, Gascoigne, Tomlin etc etc Over the years watching, it's noted how many players that are extremely skillful naturally aren't physically gifted. It's a common theme. I agree & there is also the gifted skillful & extremely fit athletes in all sports that just can't be arsed to perform when it's needed. We see such skills wasted here in Ozzie rules football, exceptional skills but just can't be arsed. It must be very frustrating & upsetting for those, as you say with the fat gene & sadly there will always be those that don't fulfill their capabilities. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted December 4, 2021 Report Share Posted December 4, 2021 10 hours ago, JoeAman08 said: I am saying he is talked about like he should have displaced Chris Martin in the summer. Not sure I’ve ever heard that….cover for Martin maybe? 10 hours ago, JoeAman08 said: By the time he was on the pitch he was up against one of their reserve cbs, a midfielder and jansson. The game for them was a stay fit exercise as their spot in playoffs was basically confirmed. Beck-Sorensen - started 29 league games last season, a Danish u21 international. Norgaard was used as an extra CB 13 times last season. You don’t rate him, that’s fine, but I think you are trying ever so hard to find stuff to knock him down with. He came on as sub, put himself about and grabbed a goal. Not gonna define his career one way or the other. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeAman08 Posted December 4, 2021 Report Share Posted December 4, 2021 33 minutes ago, Davefevs said: Not sure I’ve ever heard that….cover for Martin maybe? Beck-Sorensen - started 29 league games last season, a Danish u21 international. Norgaard was used as an extra CB 13 times last season. You don’t rate him, that’s fine, but I think you are trying ever so hard to find stuff to knock him down with. He came on as sub, put himself about and grabbed a goal. Not gonna define his career one way or the other. I have seen it around probably fb or twitter. 1 hour ago, Davefevs said: Not sure I’ve ever heard that….cover for Martin maybe? Beck-Sorensen - started 29 league games last season, a Danish u21 international. Norgaard was used as an extra CB 13 times last season. You don’t rate him, that’s fine, but I think you are trying ever so hard to find stuff to knock him down with. He came on as sub, put himself about and grabbed a goal. Not gonna define his career one way or the other. No i am trying ever so hard to balance the conversation. All I see on here is 80% saying he should be getting minutes here based of goals in the u23s and a goal in a meaningless last match of the season. I don’t rate or not rate him. I am saying we have all this evidence from the club saying he is miles away from this level. Yet we have over half the fanbase saying he should be in the squad. I hope he does well but get the impression he needs to work a lot harder for a career at our level. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Port Said Red Posted December 4, 2021 Report Share Posted December 4, 2021 Well he got a full 90 minutes and a yellow card today, more of former will be good for him. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grifty Posted December 4, 2021 Report Share Posted December 4, 2021 10 hours ago, JoeAman08 said: I have seen it around probably fb or twitter. No i am trying ever so hard to balance the conversation. All I see on here is 80% saying he should be getting minutes here based of goals in the u23s and a goal in a meaningless last match of the season. I don’t rate or not rate him. I am saying we have all this evidence from the club saying he is miles away from this level. Yet we have over half the fanbase saying he should be in the squad. I hope he does well but get the impression he needs to work a lot harder for a career at our level. No, what people are suggesting is that surely he's worth bringing on for the last 20 minutes to put himself about a bit rather than watching Martin send himself to an early grave every week. What people are basing that on is his performances in the u23s where it seemed last season he scored in pretty much every game and the only opportunity people would have seen him live against a now Premier League team, he knocked both centre backs on their arses and scored a poachers goal, all in about 15 minutes. The club have not said he is miles away from this level. They said his fitness needs to improve. That would be to start games. He can't start games, fine. But he COULD influence it from the bench. If he comes on for 3 games and is crap, send him on loan to Woking and you can celebrate. If he comes on gets an assist and a goal late on in a couple of games, great! 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjak Posted December 5, 2021 Report Share Posted December 5, 2021 20 hours ago, Major Isewater said: Pulis’s favourite film. Day of the Trifles........Lee Tomlin's favourite? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Engvall’s Splinter Posted December 5, 2021 Report Share Posted December 5, 2021 8 hours ago, grifty said: No, what people are suggesting is that surely he's worth bringing on for the last 20 minutes to put himself about a bit rather than watching Martin send himself to an early grave every week. What people are basing that on is his performances in the u23s where it seemed last season he scored in pretty much every game and the only opportunity people would have seen him live against a now Premier League team, he knocked both centre backs on their arses and scored a poachers goal, all in about 15 minutes. The club have not said he is miles away from this level. They said his fitness needs to improve. That would be to start games. He can't start games, fine. But he COULD influence it from the bench. If he comes on for 3 games and is crap, send him on loan to Woking and you can celebrate. If he comes on gets an assist and a goal late on in a couple of games, great! Absolutely this. We are flogging Martin to death - give they guy some bloody help !!! We may end up getting better quality out of Martin in a 70 minute outing. Britton took his chance last time when many others seem to get there’s, get criticised by the manager and then start again the following week ! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Red Hat Posted December 5, 2021 Report Share Posted December 5, 2021 3 hours ago, Engvall’s Splinter said: Absolutely this. We are flogging Martin to death - give they guy some bloody help !!! We may end up getting better quality out of Martin in a 70 minute outing. Britton took his chance last time when many others seem to get there’s, get criticised by the manager and then start again the following week ! It might just be that the professional coaching staff, who work with and see LB on a daily basis think he's not yet ready to play at this level. Just a thought. 5 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Engvall’s Splinter Posted December 5, 2021 Report Share Posted December 5, 2021 11 hours ago, Roger Red Hat said: It might just be that the professional coaching staff, who work with and see LB on a daily basis think he's not yet ready to play at this level. Just a thought. Fair point - it’s not as if the “professionals” hadn’t gotten us in to this mess over the last 3 years or so with lack of direction and poor recruitment. Wrap the forum up lads. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grifty Posted December 5, 2021 Report Share Posted December 5, 2021 12 hours ago, Roger Red Hat said: It might just be that the professional coaching staff, who work with and see LB on a daily basis think he's not yet ready to play at this level. Just a thought. In that case, the professional coaching staff can't see Martin is clearly struggling to compete and run after about 65 minutes and is a big reason why we spend the last 20 minutes of each game camped in our own half or box with no outlet. Just a thought. 5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Red Hat Posted December 6, 2021 Report Share Posted December 6, 2021 10 hours ago, grifty said: In that case, the professional coaching staff can't see Martin is clearly struggling to compete and run after about 65 minutes and is a big reason why we spend the last 20 minutes of each game camped in our own half or box with no outlet. Just a thought. Or it might be they can see that Martin is struggling(according to you), but they don't think that LB is the man to replace him YET. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grifty Posted December 6, 2021 Report Share Posted December 6, 2021 35 minutes ago, Roger Red Hat said: Or it might be they can see that Martin is struggling(according to you), but they don't think that LB is the man to replace him YET. LB doesn't have to be THE man to replace Martin, but he can be A man to give Martin a rest at the end of games. No-one has said LB should come straight in and lead the line for the next 10 years, but think he's worth a go to try out. If he can hold the ball up once in the last 20 minutes of a game to prevent 1 attack, that will be an improvement on leaving Martin up top alone trying his hardest, but he is 32, not got the stamina of someone like Weimann and is not closing down as we need. If he comes on for 3 games and is rubbish, we'll know, won't extend his contract and he'll leave. If he comes on, helps us see out games, maybe gets a goal or 2, we know we might have a player. I wouldn't mind he we brought on Bell or Conway (when fit) to do the same, but we don't, we leave Martin on. To be fair, normally we've had to make two injury substitutions which kind of prevent NP from doing so. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son of Fred Posted December 6, 2021 Report Share Posted December 6, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Roger Red Hat said: Or it might be they can see that Martin is struggling(according to you), but they don't think that LB is the man to replace him YET. No no,,,you misread what some are thinking - the 20 min cameo to allow Martin to take those boots off just a little earlier is what's suggested....Brittan also useful in the air so wouldn't be a trade off defensively late in the game in any way. And I'm sure those last 20 take a lot from Martin,,psychologically as well as physically.. Edited December 6, 2021 by Son of Fred 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Red Hat Posted December 6, 2021 Report Share Posted December 6, 2021 On 05/12/2021 at 11:24, Roger Red Hat said: It might just be that the professional coaching staff, who work with and see LB on a daily basis think he's not yet ready to play at this level. This was my initial response to posts about LB. It wasn't about Martin being replaced on 70 minutes, which may be necessary, but the staff obviously don't think LB, at this moment in time, is the one to replace him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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