Vaccine Passport - Plan B

[LoyalRed]

1 hour ago, pillred said:

Where the hell did you get the figure of 600% it's 83%, still a higher figure than I thought admittedly but the stays are down from 6 days to less than 2 days on average. and the vast majority of people are having mild symptoms. You also have to factor in the fact that less than a quarter of S Africans have had any vaccinations at all as opposed to over 80% here.

What is it 600% or 83% 

if the hospital stays are on average 2 days, then likely people in the U.K. will still be sat in the ambulance when they suddenly start feeling better.  It would be useful to know how many are seriously ill in ICU. 

[pillred]

Just now, LoyalRed said:

What is it 600% or 83% 

if the hospital stays are on average 2 days, then likely people in the U.K. will still be sat in the ambulance when they suddenly start feeling better.  It would be useful to know how many are seriously ill in ICU. 

Last time I looked it was 7.6% of the people hospitalised.

[Eddie Hitler]

4 hours ago, BrizzleRed said:

Can understand that.  The point is any, and I mean any vaccine or other medication carries a potential risk, so where do you draw the line?   

I’d be interested to know if there’s any poll that’s been done with un-vaxinated people in hospital with covid.  It would certainly be interesting to know if given their situation, they wished they would have opted for the jab after all, or are still glad they didn’t.  I’m not a betting man, but I reckon the majority wish they could turn back the clock.

The danger is, it appears that many aren’t making informed decisions about not having the vaccine and are instead basing their decision on rubbish they see on social media, a friend has heard, or some bloke down the pub.

It still seems odd that many seem willing to trust the opinions of the uninformed and rumours, rather than the experts in their field.

 

I mostly agree but as a counter there have been fit and healthy people who have died as a direct result of vaccination and I bet they massively regretted being vaccinated!

There isn't a "right" answer; Covid vaccinations kill people but so does Covid.

It should be up to the individual to balance the risks rather than the government telling people what to do based upon population health statistics in which individuals don't matter.

And whilst we're on statistics that discount the individual you are more likely to be killed by a Covid vaccination than you are to win the lottery.

Bought your ticket? I have.

[MarcusX]

25 minutes ago, Eddie Hitler said:

 

I mostly agree but as a counter there have been fit and healthy people who have died as a direct result of vaccination and I bet they massively regretted being vaccinated!

There isn't a "right" answer; Covid vaccinations kill people but so does Covid.

It should be up to the individual to balance the risks rather than the government telling people what to do based upon population health statistics in which individuals don't matter.

And whilst we're on statistics that discount the individual you are more likely to be killed by a Covid vaccination than you are to win the lottery.

Bought your ticket? I have.

So everyone takes your stance, refuses the vaccine then what? We just accept hundreds or thousands of deaths a day?

is there a list of the people who died of the vaccine, how do you know they were “healthy”?

 

[Kid in the Riot]

1 hour ago, Eddie Hitler said:

There isn't a "right" answer; Covid vaccinations kill people but so does Covid.

Up to August this year 5 deaths in the UK had been recorded as having a covid vaccination as the underlying cause of death.

Up to August this year approximately 130,000 people in the UK had died of Covid.

There is a right answer. Try harder. 

[Mr Hankey]

25 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Up to August this year 5 deaths in the UK had been recorded as having a covid vaccination as the underlying cause of death.

Up to August this year approximately 130,000 people in the UK had died of Covid.

There is a right answer. Try harder. 

I deal with Death Certificates every day, & some of the cases that are put down as covid-19 are baffling to say the least….not that i am agreeing with any conspiracy ect, because trust me i am not, i am fully aware that covid exists & is killing people & we should have the vaccine, but the records/stats on deaths can be misleading.

[lenred]

11 minutes ago, Mr Hankey said:

I deal with Death Certificates every day, & some of the cases that are put down as covid-19 are baffling to say the least….not that i am agreeing with any conspiracy ect, because trust me i am not, i am fully aware that covid exists & is killing people & we should have the vaccine, but the records/stats on deaths can be misleading.

Not to the extent quoted by KITR they can’t. 

[LoyalRed]

7 minutes ago, Mr Hankey said:

I deal with Death Certificates every day, & some of the cases that are put down as covid-19 are baffling to say the least….not that i am agreeing with any conspiracy ect, because trust me i am not, i am fully aware that covid exists & is killing people & we should have the vaccine, but the records/stats on deaths can be misleading.

@Kid in the Riotread at your leisure... where does the number 5 come from btw ?  How many people have ended up with Myocarditis or Pericarditis.  Should we just ignore it for the greater good ?  Likely they have just had years taken off their life which I guess is acceptable ? 

[BrizzleRed]

1 hour ago, Eddie Hitler said:

 

I mostly agree but as a counter there have been fit and healthy people who have died as a direct result of vaccination and I bet they massively regretted being vaccinated!

There isn't a "right" answer; Covid vaccinations kill people but so does Covid.

It should be up to the individual to balance the risks rather than the government telling people what to do based upon population health statistics in which individuals don't matter.

And whilst we're on statistics that discount the individual you are more likely to be killed by a Covid vaccination than you are to win the lottery.

Bought your ticket? I have.

I completely agree, but as I said, I think there are far too many people who are making the decision to reject the jab who aren’t making a balanced decision, as they’re believing scaremongering rather than actual facts.

We’ve had around 150,000,000 vaccines given in the UK alone, so let’s be honest, that’s way more than would have been used in any vaccine trials.  With numbers that big, you’d be seeing very large numbers of deaths if there was a real issue.  

I’ll bet if you administered 150 million doses of any drug, you’d find a few people with adverse reactions, as everybody is different.

The statistics show you are massively more likely to die from Covid than you are from the vaccine.  Apart from death with Covid, there is apparently a rise in other health issues like heart problems in people who had seemingly recovered from Covid, so it isn’t just about the death rates.  There’s obviously still a lot to learn about this virus.

As for your final question, no I don’t bother with the lottery, as I just don’t fancy the odds!

[BrizzleRed]

19 minutes ago, Mr Hankey said:

I deal with Death Certificates every day, & some of the cases that are put down as covid-19 are baffling to say the least….not that i am agreeing with any conspiracy ect, because trust me i am not, i am fully aware that covid exists & is killing people & we should have the vaccine, but the records/stats on deaths can be misleading.

You’d be an ideal person to answer a question I’ve had for a long time then.  

We know all the Covid deaths are announced as ‘being within 28 days of a positive covid test’.  Now if someone had a positive test and were recovering well, but within 28 days they got run over by a bus, would they still be counted as a covid related death?

[Red-Robbo]

3 minutes ago, LoyalRed said:

@Kid in the Riotread at your leisure... where does the number 5 come from btw ?  How many people have ended up with Myocarditis or Pericarditis.  Should we just ignore it for the greater good ?  Likely they have just had years taken off their life which I guess is acceptable ? 

 

The answer is likely vastly fewer than the many millions around the world who have suffered the condition as a result of a Covid infection. Covid viruses migrate to the heart wall and in a severe infection are actually present in greater numbers in the heart than in the lungs. 

More than 1,200,000 Britons suffer from Long Covid symptoms - defined as debilitating symptoms more than 3 months after first infection. Sufferers include Nigel Pearson, Steve Cotterill and a friend of mine from Frome, who 11 months after infection, still isn't well enough to work. 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1257373/long-covid-sufferers-in-the-uk-by-region-country/

By contrast, the majority of the myocarditis reports after vaccination were fleeting and resolved in less than a month:

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/study-investigates-covid-19-vaccines-and-myocarditis#Link-between-vaccine-and-myocarditis

 

[Red-Robbo]

1 minute ago, BrizzleRed said:

You’d be an ideal person to answer a question I’ve had for a long time then.  

We know all the Covid deaths are announced as ‘being within 28 days of a positive covid test’.  Now if someone had a positive test and were recovering well, but within 28 days they got run over by a bus, would they still be counted as a covid related death?

 

I can answer that. 

Deaths within 28 Days of Positive Covid test is the measure the government uses in its press conferences. It's quicker than analysing actual death certificates, which tend to lag numerous days after the actual death.

So, while it is possible the mythical bus crash victim would be counted in the government announced figures, it wouldn't say Covid on his or her death certificate.  The small numbers of people dying due to non-Covid reasons within 28 days of a Covid test would be more than balanced by the many people who die from Covid more than 28 days after testing positive. 20 days is the average infection-to-death period, but plenty have  succumbed after months of treatment: the singer John Prine for example.

It is possible to see the figures for actual deaths recorded for, or partly attributed to, Covid here:  https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsregisteredweeklyinenglandandwalesprovisional/26november2021

It's worth noting that this way of counting Covid deaths gives a higher total than the government's "28 Days" method.

146,000 Britons are counted as having died from Covid "within 28 days" but 170,000 Brits have Covid on their death certificate,

 

[Redandproud]

On 08/12/2021 at 19:46, Northern Red said:

So punishing City for something they have no control over?

I agree,it's not city's fault they have to input the rules, if they don't ,they could be fined,

[big p]

1 hour ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Up to August this year 5 deaths in the UK had been recorded as having a covid vaccination as the underlying cause of death.

Up to August this year approximately 130,000 people in the UK had died of Covid.

There is a right answer. Try harder. 

Wrong.

With covid not necessarily of covid.

Here's the problem when people twist the truth to fit thier argument.  

Try harder.

Edited December 11, 2021 by big p

[Mr Hankey]

28 minutes ago, BrizzleRed said:

You’d be an ideal person to answer a question I’ve had for a long time then.  

We know all the Covid deaths are announced as ‘being within 28 days of a positive covid test’.  Now if someone had a positive test and were recovering well, but within 28 days they got run over by a bus, would they still be counted as a covid related death?

As mentioned by @Red-Robbo, it wouldn’t likely be stated on the cert as the leading cause of death, but neither would “got run over by bus”! Would be worded differently, but there is evey chance it would be counted by the governments figures. There are usually more than one cause of death on the certificates which are listed in bullet points.
 

Sometimes covid is listed amongst other ailments much more serious, which you know would have been the cause of death regardless of whether they had the infection or not. That is what grates me. But don’t get me twisted, i am very much in favour of getting the vaccine, but at the same time i do think it should be a personal choice. Believe it or not, i am currently trying to get in touch with the NHS as they are not recording my second vaccine, despite getting it in September! All in all, world is a shit show & it aint getting better anytime soon

 

[Bannerman]

A doctor in the UK who was banned from using social media by the General Medical Council for claiming “masks do nothing” has won his case in the High Court.

Dr. Samuel White was slapped with and 18 month ban by the GMC after he posted a video to Instagram and Twitter in June questioning the efficacy of face coverings.

In the video, White said why he could no longer tolerate working in his previous roles because of the “lies” around the NHS and the government’s response to the pandemic, which were “so vast” he could no longer “stomach” them.

White also committed the ultimate sin of remarking, “masks do nothing” to stop the spread of COVID, despite this being the consensus medical opinion at the start of the pandemic before it mysteriously switched almost overnight.

 

The doctor also expressed concerns about the safety of vaccines and the reliability of COVID tests.

White took his case against the GMC to the High Court on the basis of his freedom of expression “to engage in medical, scientific and political debate and discussion,” White’s barrister, Francis Hoar, told a hearing at the Royal Courts of Justice.

Hoar added that White’s opinions were “supported by large bodies of scientific and medical opinion” and had been “statements of fact and opinions about pharmaceutical and non-pharmaceutical interventions in response to the pandemic.”

GMC’s Alexis Hearnden claimed that White’s views were not only misinformation, but posed a “risk” to the public because they didn’t align with official pronouncements.

However, the court ruled in favor of White, asserting that the tribunal which banned him from speaking had violated the 1998 Human Rights Act.

The ruling concluded that the tribunal’s decision was “an error of law and a clear misdirection,” meaning the decision was “clearly wrong and cannot stand

[LoyalRed]

3 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

What's discrimation? Unvaccinated people can still go to watch City. They just need to get a PCR test.

Grow the **** up and stop being such big tantrum-throwing baby. 

As I mentioned earlier, if this variant ends up being milder then we would all expect this vaccine passport measure to be stopped wouldn’t we?  If that is the case then I have no issues with it.  I would assume you wouldn’t want the passport in place indefinitely from now on.  You just agree to it as a precautionary measure until we know more about the variant ?  What are your thoughts on Plan C ? 

[lenred]

16 minutes ago, Bannerman said:

A doctor in the UK who was banned from using social media by the General Medical Council for claiming “masks do nothing” has won his case in the High Court.

Dr. Samuel White was slapped with and 18 month ban by the GMC after he posted a video to Instagram and Twitter in June questioning the efficacy of face coverings.

In the video, White said why he could no longer tolerate working in his previous roles because of the “lies” around the NHS and the government’s response to the pandemic, which were “so vast” he could no longer “stomach” them.

White also committed the ultimate sin of remarking, “masks do nothing” to stop the spread of COVID, despite this being the consensus medical opinion at the start of the pandemic before it mysteriously switched almost overnight.

 

The doctor also expressed concerns about the safety of vaccines and the reliability of COVID tests.

White took his case against the GMC to the High Court on the basis of his freedom of expression “to engage in medical, scientific and political debate and discussion,” White’s barrister, Francis Hoar, told a hearing at the Royal Courts of Justice.

Hoar added that White’s opinions were “supported by large bodies of scientific and medical opinion” and had been “statements of fact and opinions about pharmaceutical and non-pharmaceutical interventions in response to the pandemic.”

GMC’s Alexis Hearnden claimed that White’s views were not only misinformation, but posed a “risk” to the public because they didn’t align with official pronouncements.

However, the court ruled in favor of White, asserting that the tribunal which banned him from speaking had violated the 1998 Human Rights Act.

The ruling concluded that the tribunal’s decision was “an error of law and a clear misdirection,” meaning the decision was “clearly wrong and cannot stand

What’s your point in posting this?

[Kid in the Riot]

20 minutes ago, big p said:

Wrong.

With covid not necessarily of covid.

Here's the problem when people twist the truth to fit thier argument.  

Try harder.

Yeah with covid on the death certificate it's actually much higher - 170,000.

Thanks for correcting me, alas it hasn't helped your argument one bit

[Mr Popodopolous]

7 hours ago, GrahamC said:

Boy this thread is depressing.

The “tin foil hats, it’s all a government conspiracy, why should I get vaccinated” are out in force.

Omicron is going to be seriously bad news, forget what South Africa shows, as the populations aren’t remotely comparable, theirs is far younger & has a lifestyle more attuned to outdoors, plus the rate at which it spreads is far, far faster than previous strains.

The current measures far from being too much, aren’t going to be enough or we’ll have thousands of additional deaths.

Of course though I only say this because I am also part of some sinister cabal that wants to put a microchip in every citizen, including children..

Tbh but that's a bit of a straw man.

There is as you well know a significant difference and range of views in between wariness or hesitation about a relatively new technology (MRNA) and the microchip brigade.

Although on a side note, do you consider it more or less likely that had Valneva been on offer, there might be less vaccine hesitant?

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

What's discrimation? Unvaccinated people can still go to watch City. They just need to get a PCR test.

R-R, not the first time you've posted it- pretty sure it's an LFT as the alternative to a vaccine passport.

Edited December 11, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[big p]

17 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Yeah with covid on the death certificate it's actually much higher - 170,000.

Thanks for correcting me, alas it hasn't helped your argument one bit

Of course it has, twisting the truth doesn't make you correct. 

 

So how many people actually died "of" covid and not "with" then? I would like to see proof not just your slanted opinion..

[IAmNick]

18 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Tbh but that's a bit of a straw man.

There is as you well know a significant difference and range of views in between wariness or hesitation about a relatively new technology (MRNA) and the microchip brigade.

Although on a side note, do you consider it more or less likely that had Valneva been on offer, there might be less vaccine hesitant?

Oh come on, I really don't believe the majority of "hesitant" people are because of the tech. No doubt they take, or are given all kinds of other medication, drugs, and put god knows what else in their body which they have absolutely no idea what they are, or the maturity of the tech behind it. Do they know what the chicken the guzzle down in KFC is washed with? What's in their cigarettes?

It's an excuse for many to make it sound like they have a legit reason. They didn't want it before they even know what MRNA was.

The vaccines and the tech/.knowledge behind them is incredibly complicated. A layman on the street like your or I has no idea the research, method, and efficacy of them. That would take years of complex study - which is why we have a lot of extremely intelligent people who do that for their entire lives for us.

Edited December 11, 2021 by IAmNick

[Bannerman]

24 minutes ago, lenred said:

What’s your point in posting this?

There is none in your case

[IAmNick]

1 minute ago, big p said:

Of course it has, twisting the truth doesn't make you correct. 

 

So how many people actually died "of" covid and not "with" then? I would like to see proof not just your slanted opinion..

What do you count as "of"?

If someone has cancer, is greatly weakened, and dies of a simple infection is that a cancer death or not? Do you literally have to be killed by the thing for it to matter - or if it weakens you (or contributes significantly) is that enough? What's the line?

[Ska Junkie]

21 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

R-R, not the first time you've posted it- pretty sure it's an LFT as the alternative to a vaccine passport.

Either isn't it?

My passport came back online today which is a relief.

[big p]

7 minutes ago, IAmNick said:

What do you count as "of"?

If someone has cancer, is greatly weakened, and dies of a simple infection is that a cancer death or not? Do you literally have to be killed by the thing for it to matter - or if it weakens you (or contributes significantly) is that enough? What's the line?

 

The line is someone quoting numbers when they have no idea what the true figures are and putting it out as facts to suit their arguments. 

Edited December 11, 2021 by big p

[lenred]

7 minutes ago, Bannerman said:

There is none in your case

Eh?

[IAmNick]

1 minute ago, big p said:

 

The line is someone quoting numbers when they have no idea what the true figures are and putting it out as facts to suit their arguments. 

Hah - you asked the question, and sounds like you have no idea at all what you're actually asking for.

[BrizzleRed]

1 hour ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

I can answer that. 

Deaths within 28 Days of Positive Covid test is the measure the government uses in its press conferences. It's quicker than analysing actual death certificates, which tend to lag numerous days after the actual death.

So, while it is possible the mythical bus crash victim would be counted in the government announced figures, it wouldn't say Covid on his or her death certificate.  The small numbers of people dying due to non-Covid reasons within 28 days of a Covid test would be more than balanced by the many people who die from Covid more than 28 days after testing positive. 20 days is the average infection-to-death period, but plenty have  succumbed after months of treatment: the singer John Prine for example.

It is possible to see the figures for actual deaths recorded for, or partly attributed to, Covid here:  https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsregisteredweeklyinenglandandwalesprovisional/26november2021

It's worth noting that this way of counting Covid deaths gives a higher total than the government's "28 Days" method.

146,000 Britons are counted as having died from Covid "within 28 days" but 170,000 Brits have Covid on their death certificate,

 

Many thanks for clearing that up and much appreciated RR