Vaccine Passport - Plan B

[IAmNick]

25 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

https://www.mailplus.co.uk/news/45502/countdown-to-15-million-jabs...-and-freedom-day

Don't usually quote the Daily Mail outside of Sports news but found the actual article from late 2020.

The scope of the rollout- numbers and age groups of the current programme- exceeds anything in there. Just look at the age groups!!

I recall Whitty suggesting that it, ie Covid would eventually resemble the flu. Some truth, but a difference there is that those who have flu shots tend to be old, medically vulnerable or both? I've certainly never had one.

I know Covid isn't the flu as such but absolutely nothing in there about boosters or vaccinating even under 30's!! Medical vulnerabities aside in the case of the younger age groups.

Well nothing about Covid certification anyway although on further reading that was only Phase 1

I'm a bit confused. Wasn't that just predicting that thanks to the jabs we'd hopefully be out of full lockdown by march which is basically what happened?

The age groups were just from the first phase right as it says? Jabbing the rest was phase 2.

I don't understand why posting almost a year old articles means anything. It'd be like blindly still starting a player every game now just because there were looking good in January. Things change as new info comes to light. You have to adapt. Picking one route and following it no matter what would be insanity, no?

8 minutes ago, Baba Yaga said:

Bait and switch. People wouldn't accept the rules at once so they are brought in gently. Same thing with basically every covid pass that has been brought in and then later extended. The behavioural scientists have done a fairly good job to be fair.

But the majority of the restrictions from when that article was posted (full national lockdown) were dropped for the last 9 months or so, so that's the opposite isn't it?

Unless your point is that covid passes are now seen as more useful when the vast majority of the population can use them, compared to a few % back then. 

[Harry]

3 minutes ago, Bristol Rob said:

Get all that Slim, but given a steward isn't going to know you from Adam, and won't be anything other than eyeballing your pass, why not go to the Gate?

Understand your POV around jabbing kids, even if it does put grandparents at greater risk, but that's a personal choice; I just don't think Boris is going to be making any decisions based on the number of people at an event in BS3.

Yep, it’s purely a moral stand on my part. As said, I could access AG if I wanted to and flash my pass at the steward if I wanted to. But I always said to myself, way back in the spring this year when I knew this was coming (I actually thought it was gonna be September initially), that I simply didn’t want to participate in such a process. I find the idea of showing a medical status to gain access to an event to be abhorrent to be honest - yes I could do it if I wanted to, but as I said, I’m thinking bigger picture here. I could go down on Saturday with my daughter and we could both get in. But what happens in March next year when I’ve got my pass but I now need to get my daughter jabbed in order for her to be able to come down with me. 
You’re right - my stance won’t change Boris de Pfizer Johnson’s mind, but I’m happy in the knowledge that I won’t be contributing to a future where my children have to be unnecessarily vaccinated in order to enjoy society. As I said in a much earlier post - my soul will be pure and my conscious will be clean. I can look my daughters in the eye and honestly say “I didn’t want this and I didn’t play any part”. 
 

I appreciate that many people won’t understand this and just say “it’s only a pass, mate”. Yep, I know. But I just can’t bring myself to participate in something that I feel will result in my children having to comply with in the future. If that particular future doesn’t happen then brilliant, I’m the fool, egg on my face, and will humbly say I was wrong and I was an idiot. But the way I’ve felt since early this year was this tiny tiptoe toward my kids being required to vaccinate, and I just don’t agree with that and never will. 

[Baba Yaga]

2 minutes ago, IAmNick said:

I'm a bit confused. Wasn't that just predicting that thanks to the jabs we'd hopefully be out of full lockdown by march which is basically what happened?

The age groups were just from the first phase right as it says? Jabbing the rest was phase 2.

I don't understand why posting almost a year old articles means anything. It'd be like blindly still starting a player every game now just because there were looking good in January. Things change as new info comes to light. You have to adapt. Picking one route and following it no matter what would be insanity, no?

But the majority of the restrictions from when that article was posted (full national lockdown) were dropped for the last 9 months or so, so that's the opposite isn't it?

Unless your point is that covid passes are now seen as more useful when the vast majority of the population can use them, compared to a few % back then. 

My comment was only based around covid passes and the vaccine rollout. They are sold initially as one thing but are in reality something quite different. I don't think it's anyone's aim to sustain policies like lockdowns long term but we will see if covid passes and coerced vaccines are rolled back when the time comes, or if we see more fear based media/politician/big pharma logic to justify their existence for longer.

[Harry]

1 minute ago, Tafkarmlf said:

Spudski with the greatest respect, there is help available should you need it

Comparing 70 and 50 years ago a situation that's 2 years old, blaming ng everything and everyone for everything seems like someone who needs to take a step back, it appears you've loads going on from your other posts, please take some self care 

 

 

Wow. You are a sick **** aren’t you. 
Spudski makes some incredibly valid and reasoned points about modern society and you suggest he needs to go and get help. 
This from someone who’s self-righteously displayed their credentials earlier in the thread about what a ******* hero they’ve been during the pandemic. What a ******* psycho. 

[BS4 on Tour...]

1 hour ago, Tafkarmlf said:

I'm literally picking up an award for the work I've done in the Pandemic next week....

This country is ‘literally’ giving out awards for people doing their jobs during a global pandemic?! Blimey, you must have done something amazing to warrant such recognition - please share the criteria under which you were deemed worthy of an award - my sister works in a care home, she hasn’t missed a day’s work since Feb 2020 - strangely she hasn’t been nominated for an ‘award’ - you must be special ...

[Bristol Rob]

8 minutes ago, Harry said:

Yep, it’s purely a moral stand on my part. As said, I could access AG if I wanted to and flash my pass at the steward if I wanted to. But I always said to myself, way back in the spring this year when I knew this was coming (I actually thought it was gonna be September initially), that I simply didn’t want to participate in such a process. I find the idea of showing a medical status to gain access to an event to be abhorrent to be honest - yes I could do it if I wanted to, but as I said, I’m thinking bigger picture here. I could go down on Saturday with my daughter and we could both get in. But what happens in March next year when I’ve got my pass but I now need to get my daughter jabbed in order for her to be able to come down with me. 
You’re right - my stance won’t change Boris de Pfizer Johnson’s mind, but I’m happy in the knowledge that I won’t be contributing to a future where my children have to be unnecessarily vaccinated in order to enjoy society. As I said in a much earlier post - my soul will be pure and my conscious will be clean. I can look my daughters in the eye and honestly say “I didn’t want this and I didn’t play any part”. 
 

I appreciate that many people won’t understand this and just say “it’s only a pass, mate”. Yep, I know. But I just can’t bring myself to participate in something that I feel will result in my children having to comply with in the future. If that particular future doesn’t happen then brilliant, I’m the fool, egg on my face, and will humbly say I was wrong and I was an idiot. But the way I’ve felt since early this year was this tiny tiptoe toward my kids being required to vaccinate, and I just don’t agree with that and never will. 

Fair enough mater.

Agree with some of your points, disagree with some of your others, but after God knows how many pages of noise, it all got a bit lost in translation.

I suppose the difficulty will come if they decide in 6 or 12 months time, only vaccinated kids can go to school.

[BS4 on Tour...]

4 hours ago, ChippenhamRed said:

... dying from a virus that has killed 150,000 people in this country alone....

Amazing how this figure is continually trotted out with confidence - I personally know someone who tragically died by being electrocuted at work - his horrendous passing was counted as a ‘Covid death’ because he’d had a positive test a month before ... surely you can see that 150k isn’t accurate ...

[BTRFTG]

10 minutes ago, Harry said:

where my children have to be unnecessarily vaccinated in order to enjoy society.

Out of interest do you and your kids hold passports? If so, why? They aren't compulsory, you don't need them to travel (you may happily make your own arrangements,) you wouldn't have to provide personal information to get them, for some folks travel to obtain them, plus you'd avoid the expense of having to procure them.  Now that's a lot of imposition and effort for something so personal.

 

[spudski]

8 minutes ago, Tafkarmlf said:

Spudski with the greatest respect, there is help available should you need it

Comparing 70 and 50 years ago a situation that's 2 years old, blaming ng everything and everyone for everything seems like someone who needs to take a step back, it appears you've loads going on from your other posts, please take some self care 

 

 

I'm perfectly fine mate...I've felt the same way for many years before covid and my recent situation.

Everyone goes through it...not first, not last.

Covid is here...fact.

A society of unhealthy, overweight, unfit people is here. 

Covid wouldn't be so desperate, if we were healthier as a nation.

I'd rather we looked long term, rather than short term.

They've said there will be further mutations and most likely other viruses.

So why not get healthier so that we can fight better.

Shutting down society isn't the answer.

Vaccine, jab, booster, wear mask, stay at home, work at home, don't travel, make travel harder, don't socialise, stay away from people, restrictions on who can see loved ones...within two years, people are willing to accept that as the new norm.  For it to be an everyday normal event.

Perhaps build more hospitals for an older society that lives longer with health issues. Perhaps pay nurses etc more. Perhaps educate children on exercise and how to cook and eat healthier.

I could go on.

Thanks for your concern...but I've always thought this.

[ChippenhamRed]

8 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Amazing how this figure is continually trotted out with confidence - I personally know someone who tragically died by being electrocuted at work - his horrendous passing was counted as a ‘Covid death’ because he’d had a positive test a month before ... surely you can see that 150k isn’t accurate ...

A common myth perpetuated by those who like to claim the deaths total is overstated. Unfortunately the facts don’t back it up.

Two ways of counting Covid deaths:

”Deaths within 28 days of a positive test” - and - Covid death certificates.

Data for both published here:

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/deaths
 

As you can see, the death certificate total is substantially higher at 170k, because it doesn’t exclude those who survive 28 days+ in hospital (which greatly exceeds those who die of unrelated causes).

This is a reliable figure - irrespective of a positive test, if Covid didn’t contribute to death, it isn’t listed on the certificate. So the 28 day total is actually a substantial under-estimate. 

[Harry]

9 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

Out of interest do you and your kids hold passports? If so, why? They aren't compulsory, you don't need them to travel (you may happily make your own arrangements,) you wouldn't have to provide personal information to get them, for some folks travel to obtain them, plus you'd avoid the expense of having to procure them.  Now that's a lot of imposition and effort for something so personal.

 

Strange comparison. Yes we all hold passports. Prior to all this, last time I looked I didn’t need to have my daughter vaccinated to apply for a passport in order to go to Disneyland Paris. 
No one forced us to travel there, but no was stopping us from going because she didn’t have a vaccine. 

[spudski]

23 minutes ago, Harry said:

Yep, it’s purely a moral stand on my part. As said, I could access AG if I wanted to and flash my pass at the steward if I wanted to. But I always said to myself, way back in the spring this year when I knew this was coming (I actually thought it was gonna be September initially), that I simply didn’t want to participate in such a process. I find the idea of showing a medical status to gain access to an event to be abhorrent to be honest - yes I could do it if I wanted to, but as I said, I’m thinking bigger picture here. I could go down on Saturday with my daughter and we could both get in. But what happens in March next year when I’ve got my pass but I now need to get my daughter jabbed in order for her to be able to come down with me. 
You’re right - my stance won’t change Boris de Pfizer Johnson’s mind, but I’m happy in the knowledge that I won’t be contributing to a future where my children have to be unnecessarily vaccinated in order to enjoy society. As I said in a much earlier post - my soul will be pure and my conscious will be clean. I can look my daughters in the eye and honestly say “I didn’t want this and I didn’t play any part”. 
 

I appreciate that many people won’t understand this and just say “it’s only a pass, mate”. Yep, I know. But I just can’t bring myself to participate in something that I feel will result in my children having to comply with in the future. If that particular future doesn’t happen then brilliant, I’m the fool, egg on my face, and will humbly say I was wrong and I was an idiot. But the way I’ve felt since early this year was this tiny tiptoe toward my kids being required to vaccinate, and I just don’t agree with that and never will. 

Totally agree with your sentiments, and exactly how I feel.

Especially when you look at all the other things being put in place in other countries.

What annoys me most, is I really don't think this is about health. If it were, the regulations wouldn't be so easy to manipulate.

What is the point of a vaccine pass...it means jack shit as to whether you have the virus or can spread it.

What's the point of a mask if you've had the same one in your pocket for the past year.

What's the point of showing a PCR test if you can lie as to whether it's negative or positive.

What's the point of wearing a mask in the supermarket when I don't need one in the pub.

Etc etc etc 

It's all symbolic.

 

 

[ChippenhamRed]

3 hours ago, Eddie Hitler said:

 

Yes, that's absolutely where I gather my information about the subject as does everyone raising any doubts against the vaccine whilst all those arguing for everyone being vaccinated is only doing so after extensive study in the British Library.

You don’t need to study in the British library to see the enormous positive impact in reducing hospitalisations and deaths brought about by vaccination. A willingness to listen to highly qualified experts in the fields of virology, epidemiology, immunology and medicine does help, however.

[Harry]

21 minutes ago, Bristol Rob said:

Fair enough mater.

Agree with some of your points, disagree with some of your others, but after God knows how many pages of noise, it all got a bit lost in translation.

I suppose the difficulty will come if they decide in 6 or 12 months time, only vaccinated kids can go to school.

And that’s exactly what I think is coming mate. 
That’s my fear. That’s why I’m making my personal moral stand. As I always said - this isn’t about me, it’s about my kids. I fear for what my kids will have to undergo in the future in order to participate in society. 
There has been a steady tiptoe toward this, and I fear it’s coming. There is already ‘stealth’ talk about exactly this - vax only eduction. 
And tonight’s vote cements the next stepping stone on that journey. 
The kids are my red line. I am not playing the game. I am not attending anywhere which requires this pass. 
I will be proud to say to my kids “I played no part in this”. 

[BrizzleRed]

5 minutes ago, spudski said:

I'm perfectly fine mate...I've felt the same way for many years before covid and my recent situation.

Everyone goes through it...not first, not last.

Covid is here...fact.

A society of unhealthy, overweight, unfit people is here. 

Covid wouldn't be so desperate, if we were healthier as a nation.

I'd rather we looked long term, rather than short term.

They've said there will be further mutations and most likely other viruses.

So why not get healthier so that we can fight better.

Shutting down society isn't the answer.

Vaccine, jab, booster, wear mask, stay at home, work at home, don't travel, make travel harder, don't socialise, stay away from people, restrictions on who can see loved ones...within two years, people are willing to accept that as the new norm.  For it to be an everyday normal event.

Perhaps build more hospitals for an older society that lives longer with health issues. Perhaps pay nurses etc more. Perhaps educate children on exercise and how to cook and eat healthier.

I could go on.

Thanks for your concern...but I've always thought this.

Don’t disagree with most of the points you make, but most of your solutions are long term ones, though clearly should be things we’re aiming for.

What bothers me is what you seem to be proposing for the short term though.  The way I see it, there are two choices; either continue with some restrictions as we’re doing, or what it appears you’re suggesting.  

Let’s not sugar coat it, as it seems you’re basically saying the young, fit and healthy should be able to go out and live life as normal.  On the other hand, the elderly, those with fragile health, or just plain fat b******s should all lock themselves in their houses until either their healthy relatives eventually infect them after ‘living their lives freely’, or their ill health or old age finally overcomes them.

Have I got that one right, because that seems to be what you’re saying?

[BTRFTG]

12 minutes ago, Harry said:

Strange comparison. Yes we all hold passports. Prior to all this, last time I looked I didn’t need to have my daughter vaccinated to apply for a passport in order to go to Disneyland Paris. 
No one forced us to travel there, but no was stopping us from going because she didn’t have a vaccine. 

Not strange in the slightest. You undertook what many suggest are state imposed constraints (they aren't) though constraints they are and you didn't need to, so why did you bother? Now had you not had a passport your passage would most likely have been less easy as you enjoyed. For one you would probably have found that carriers would have declined to carry you had you simply turned up and so attempted. You most likely would have been returned by the French authorities had you not met their demands.

Dual standards?

Edited December 14, 2021 by BTRFTG

[BS4 on Tour...]

4 minutes ago, ChippenhamRed said:

A common myth perpetuated by those who like to claim the deaths total is overstated. Unfortunately the facts don’t back it up.

Two ways of counting Covid deaths:

”Deaths within 28 days of a positive test” - and - Covid death certificates.

Data for both published here:

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/deaths
 

As you can see, the death certificate total is substantially higher at 170k, because it doesn’t exclude those who survive 28 days+ in hospital (which greatly exceeds those who die of unrelated causes).

This is a reliable figure - irrespective of a positive test, if Covid didn’t contribute to death, it isn’t listed on the certificate. So the 28 day total is actually a substantial under-estimate. 

If you think 170k is a ‘reliable figure’ why did you say Covid has killed ‘150k’ in your previous post? And the link you provided clearly states under the ‘Covid death certificates’ section that Covid could have been “mentioned as one of the causes of death” - one of the causes!!! The person I knew died by being electrocuted at work - his death was counted as a Covid death - yet it obviously wasn’t ...

[ChippenhamRed]

6 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

If you think 170k is a ‘reliable figure’ why did you say Covid has killed ‘150k’ in your previous post? And the link you provided clearly states under the ‘Covid death certificates’ section that Covid could have been “mentioned as one of the causes of death” - one of the causes!!! The person I knew died by being electrocuted at work - his death was counted as a Covid death - yet it obviously wasn’t ...

I used 150k as a very broad-brush figure but then researched the more precise total when you queried it.

Your colleague would have been included in the 28 day figure but not the death certificate total, because Covid did not contribute to his death.

Covid is listed on a death certificate either as a contributing factor or the underlying cause. Over the course of the pandemic, around 90% of those 170k death certificates have Covid as the underlying cause.

This link below is from May but demonstrates very clearly that Covid is the underlying cause in the vast majority of cases.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/deathsintheukwherecovid19wastheprimarycauseofdeath

[Harry]

12 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

Not strange in the slightest. You undertook what many suggest are state imposed constraints (they aren't) though constraints they are and you didn't need to, so why did you bother? Now had you not had a passport your passage would most likely have been less easy as you enjoyed. For one you would probably have found that carriers would have declined to carry you had you simply turned up and so attempted. You most likely would have been returned by the French authorities had you not met their demands.

Dual standards?

This really is the most utter nonsense comparison ever. 
What did my kid have to do to get a travel passport? Take a photo, whilst trying not to smile. 
What would my child have to do to travel to Disneyland next year? 3 jabs of a vax that has a minor chance of severely harming her heart to protect her against a virus that has an even smaller chance of harming her in any way. 
No thanks. And I reckon you’ll be surprised at the amount of people who say ‘this stops now’ when they’re expected to jab their kids every 6 months. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

28 minutes ago, ChippenhamRed said:

A common myth perpetuated by those who like to claim the deaths total is overstated. Unfortunately the facts don’t back it up.

Two ways of counting Covid deaths:

”Deaths within 28 days of a positive test” - and - Covid death certificates.

Data for both published here:

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/deaths
 

As you can see, the death certificate total is substantially higher at 170k, because it doesn’t exclude those who survive 28 days+ in hospital (which greatly exceeds those who die of unrelated causes).

This is a reliable figure - irrespective of a positive test, if Covid didn’t contribute to death, it isn’t listed on the certificate. So the 28 day total is actually a substantial under-estimate. 

Will have a look at that tomorrow or maybe soon.

Out of interest, does it filter into those who specifically and solely died of Covid?

By which I mean ah individual who is otherwise healthy- by no means are all comorbidities self inflicted but yes otherwise healthy and struck down solely by Covid.

I don't doubt Covid is a problem but sole cause of death appears to be the key here.

[Harry]

13 minutes ago, Tafkarmlf said:

Thanks for that, glad you've shown your true colours. 

As for your last point, it's not me venting a spleen over words on the Internet... 

I’ve always shown my colours with you sweet Ralphy. You’ve always been a self righteous dick. 
 

I see your hero Caroline Lucas voted on the same side as me tonight. 

[spudski]

7 minutes ago, BrizzleRed said:

Don’t disagree with most of the points you make, but most of your solutions are long term ones, though clearly should be things we’re aiming for.

What bothers me is what you seem to be proposing for the short term though.  The way I see it, there are two choices; either continue with some restrictions as we’re doing, or what it appears you’re suggesting.  

Let’s not sugar coat it, as it seems you’re basically saying the young, fit and healthy should be able to go out and live life as normal.  On the other hand, the elderly, those with fragile health, or just plain fat b******s should all lock themselves in their houses until either their healthy relatives eventually infect them after ‘living their lives freely’, or their ill health or old age finally overcomes them.

Have I got that one right, because that seems to be what you’re saying?

No...I'm saying be cautious if you are vulnerable.

As I said in my earlier post, all the restrictions in place, passport, pcr, mask do not prevent spreading. They are all easily manipulated. If you are going to restrict for health reasons, do it properly. It's so symbolic.

The fact is...there are many old in society, many with underlying health issues, many just unhealthy due to their poor life choices.

Vaccines just give a false sense of security. So do boosters.

You either do it correctly or not...not symbolically.

Are you happy for society to just keep on living like it is, with increasing vaccines, boosters, restrictions, years if it, ever increasing? Happy to accept that.

Yet people less happy to accept changing their lifestyle to help themselves? 

The fact is, we have a huge amount of an elderly population, living with underlying health issues, relying on medication to keep alive. If it wasn't for medication keeping them alive...they wouldn't be. Often just sat or led all day. No life. Just surviving. Sat watching TV and eating and drinking. It's no life. That's what many do. Sad as it is. Popping pills. 

Sounds harsh...but it's true. And it will only get worse in the future. Living longer, with health issues, kept alive by drugs. So vulnerable to any virus in the future. Where does it end? It's a downward spiral.

There is no short term fix for this...we need to think long term. 

 

[ChippenhamRed]

3 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Will have a look at that tomorrow or maybe soon.

Out of interest, does it filter into those who specifically and solely died of Covid?

By which I mean ah individual who is otherwise healthy- by no means are all comorbidities self inflicted but yes otherwise healthy and struck down solely by Covid.

I don't doubt Covid is a problem but sole cause of death appears to be the key here.

See my further post above. Covid is listed as the underlying cause of death on around 90% of death certificates.

[BTRFTG]

11 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

If you think 170k is a ‘reliable figure’ why did you say Covid has killed ‘150k’ in your previous post? And the link you provided clearly states under the ‘Covid death certificates’ section that Covid could have been “mentioned as one of the causes of death” - one of the causes!!! The person I knew died by being electrocuted at work - his death was counted as a Covid death - yet it obviously wasn’t ...

I call it the 'Eddie Large' attribution.

Now the much loved comedian was admitted to the BRI 17 years after he'd received a heart transplant. All those 'extra' years enjoying life , courtesy of a doner's selflessness and thoughtfulness for others, plus a very potent cocktail of medication. And after 17 years his transplanted heart began to fail, hence his admission, where for several months he was cared for all whilst facing the inevitable. That he contracted Covid (how might he have avoided it in hospital,) is a matter of record. But was it the virus that finally did for him, as was sensationally reported,  or rather the heart failure and associated problems for which he'd been admitted?

[ChippenhamRed]

Good summary and explanation here @Mr Popodopolous

https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n352

[frenchred]

Mods this post is becoming very vitriolic amongst our own fans. Name calling and worse, i think you should consider closing the thread? We are not all going to agree ever........

Edited December 14, 2021 by frenchred

[And Its Smith]

23 minutes ago, Tafkarmlf said:

Sure, 

Whilst being stalked, domestically abused and then sexually assaulted I setup and run something that allowed people to have a safe space to be themselves, have meetings face to face under covid conditions, provided advice on housing, DV, Covid vaccinations and substance misuse as well as mental health to hundreds of people in a marginalised community across a county. 

We've reached a massive section of the wider section of a community who were distrusting in any type of help from anyone for anything and seen that spawn in to a  real life community  with help and aid that never previously existed in any significant fashion

I'll be running stuff over Xmas to make sure people are safe, secure and not affected by issues over that period as well. 

I got off my arse and did something, so I'm proud to be awarded something after being chewed up and spat out by my old NHS job that saw me cover an entire county alone, so many safeguarding issues ignored when brought about and treated like.crap and underpaid for months during a large part of the Pandemic. 

2021 has been utter crap, but I'm proud of the things done to help. 

 

 

Huge respect from me.  And sorry for what you’ve endured over the last year.

[phantom]

20 minutes ago, frenchred said:

Mods this post is becoming very vitriolic amongst our own fans. Name calling and worse, i think you should consider closing the thread? We are not all going to agree ever........

Completely agree. 

We've spent at least the past 48 hours responding to reports, hiding posts and issuing warnings. 

Shame the conversation descended this way but I don't think any of us are surprised.