Not going Saturday

[Kid in the Riot]

8 hours ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

That figure has been debated long and hard elsewhere - so I’d refer you to that discussion, although I’d highlight once again that someone I know died from being electrocuted at work and his death was put down as a Covid death because he’d tested positive a month before his untimely death.

Don’t you think there is now hysteria over this omicron variant? Do you think it is warranted? Reports today suggested there were 16 people in hospital in the UK with omicron and there has been one death - a guy in his seventies who was unvaccinated and died ‘with’ not ‘from’ omicron - South Africa (from where the omicron variant apparently originated) has now reported they are ‘over the peak’ and the number of deaths from omicron over there? Zero ... 

A guy I work with, and his wife, are both isolating at home with omicron right now - they both have underlying health issues, however, he sent me a text saying he ‘feels a bit under the weather but he’s had worse colds’ - I would never underestimate or belittle anyone’s experiences during this pandemic, but I can only draw my own conclusions from the personal experiences I go through and to which I am exposed ... and in many ways, ‘hysteria’ is an appropriate word to sum up some things right now ... I totally get, and respect, that you may feel different and that’s obviously perfectly fine - have a great weekend

I don't see much hysteria, no.

I see the CMO and other senior medical officials simply warning that there is a strong chance that with no measures put in place the NHS will likely be significantly overwhelmed this winter, with many people dying, including one's that could have otherwise been avoided.

If you are just relying on personal experience then there's a good chance you have a very narrow view of the situation. 

January is traditionally one of the busiest months for hospitals as it is, and we have a new - vaccine resistant (first two jabs) - variant of covid going through the population faster than previous ones. Doesn't take a genius to work out there should be a level of concern as to what is happening, or what might be about to happen. 

Evidence is still pointing to it being milder, and the most recent paper I saw is suggesting it doesn't attack the lungs as aggressively. Hopefully good news, but there's still enough reasons to be cautious. 

[Sir Geoff]

7 hours ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

That is a very interesting proposition.

Just think, if we were to enable trained medical staff from Europe to come and work in the UK with no restrictions, it would surely help the current labour shortage in the NHS.

Perhaps we could even extend this offer to HGV drivers and other areas in which we are suffering a labour shortage; fruit and vegetable workers, nursing auxiliary staff, for instance.

I wonder if anybody in Government has actually thought of that and, if so, what the response of our European friends might be.

I wonder what the response of the anglophone, pro-Brexit French President might be were we to propose a simple, no tariff trade and labour agreement.

Finally, I wonder how many of the tens of thousands of people who crossed the Channel in flimsy dinghies this year are suitably trained and qualified to assist our understaffed NHS, and would be more than willing to do so, but are not allowed to work (legally) so ‘disappear’ and end up working ( clandestinely, thus illegally) on building sites, in sweat shops, nail bars or, shamefully, in underground brothels.

 

or we could cut the benefits of the 1.42 million freeloaders (not all I grant you), claiming unemployment benefit and train them for these jobs instead.

[Waconda]

27 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

or we could cut the benefits of the 1.42 million freeloaders (not all I grant you), claiming unemployment benefit and train them for these jobs instead.

Or we could cut the billions in "corporate welfare" handed out to big business to subsidise their failing business models and tax avoidance.

The covid crisis proves that corporate welfare is the rule rather than the exception. We desperately need a new social contract* – Corporate Welfare Watch (corporate-welfare-watch.org.uk)

 

Cut benefits? Yes, let’s start with our £85bn corporate welfare handout | Aditya Chakrabortty | The Guardian

Edited December 18, 2021 by VT05763

[Harry]

47 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

I don't see much hysteria, no.

I see the CMO and other senior medical officials simply warning that there is a strong chance that with no measures put in place the NHS will likely be significantly overwhelmed this winter, with many people dying, including one's that could have otherwise been avoided.

If you are just relying on personal experience then there's a good chance you have a very narrow view of the situation. 

January is traditionally one of the busiest months for hospitals as it is, and we have a new - vaccine resistant (first two jabs) - variant of covid going through the population faster than previous ones. Doesn't take a genius to work out there should be a level of concern as to what is happening, or what might be about to happen. 

Evidence is still pointing to it being milder, and the most recent paper I saw is suggesting it doesn't attack the lungs as aggressively. Hopefully good news, but there's still enough reasons to be cautious. 

Hi mate. 
Regarding the 3rd vaccine. You’ve mentioned that the new variant is resistant to the first 2 shots. 
Now, I will hold my hands up and say I don’t know the ins and outs about how these things work, but from what I read, the first 2 vaccines were specifically designed to be able to attack the spike protein, also known as the S-Gene. 
With the new variant, they are confirming on the testing that you are positive for it if the test has S-Gene dropout. Basically meaning that the test hasn’t picked up evidence of the Spike Protein but only the other two primers, and that’s what makes it different to testing positive for the Delta variant. 
As far as I am aware, the 3rd vaccine contains exactly the same code as the previous 2, and is therefore designed to attack the S-Gene. 

So, given that a positive test for Omicron means there is no S-Gene and that the 3rd vaccine is designed to attack the S-Gene, how does the 3rd vaccine protect against omicron which doesn’t show the S-Gene it is supposed to attack? If there is no S-Gene to attack, what will it do instead?  
 

I’m sure there’s a a very good science behind it that I don’t really understand, so it would be good to get comment from anyone on here who knows more about this stuff than myself. Certainly RedRobbo usually has his finger on the trigger with this stuff. 
 

*note - This isn’t an anti-vax post. This is a genuine question over how the 3rd shot will work against the new variant when it’s stated that the first and second don’t. 

Edited December 18, 2021 by Harry

[Jacki]

I’ve been coerced into going, against my better judgement, by my kids. We’re going to mask up when queueing to get in, get off the concourse and to our seats as soon as possible and head to the Lansdown upper so we have plenty of empty space around us. Our tickets are in S82 but I don’t fancy being crammed in there with everything that’s going  on.

Hooefully no stewards will be bothered to stop us moving seats. 

[sh1t_ref_again]

2 minutes ago, Jacki said:

 

Hooefully no stewards will be bothered to stop us moving seats. 

Think there will be plenty of spare seats to pick from

[City oz]

11 hours ago, City Rocker said:

No, what we clearly should be doing is forming some kind of union with our fellow European nations, enabling free movement so that we have a chance of recruiting enough skilled and qualified staff to the NHS. And while we're at it, maybe we could have a go at frictionless trade?!

European nations have not got the volume of extra nurses and doctors. They are probably worse off than the UK. It is a dire situation across the world. I appreciate your comments but to me they are like taking my dog to the beach and by the way my dogs name is shark. 

 

[Jacki]

Just now, sh1t_ref_again said:

Think there will be plenty of spare seats to pick from

That’s what we figured. Sitting up there, in the fresh air, with pretty much a block to ourselves seems like a pretty safe option to me. 

[ChippenhamRed]

9 hours ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

That figure has been debated long and hard elsewhere - so I’d refer you to that discussion, although I’d highlight once again that someone I know died from being electrocuted at work and his death was put down as a Covid death because he’d tested positive a month before his untimely death.

Don’t you think there is now hysteria over this omicron variant? Do you think it is warranted? Reports today suggested there were 16 people in hospital in the UK with omicron and there has been one death - a guy in his seventies who was unvaccinated and died ‘with’ not ‘from’ omicron - South Africa (from where the omicron variant apparently originated) has now reported they are ‘over the peak’ and the number of deaths from omicron over there? Zero ... 

A guy I work with, and his wife, are both isolating at home with omicron right now - they both have underlying health issues, however, he sent me a text saying he ‘feels a bit under the weather but he’s had worse colds’ - I would never underestimate or belittle anyone’s experiences during this pandemic, but I can only draw my own conclusions from the personal experiences I go through and to which I am exposed ... and in many ways, ‘hysteria’ is an appropriate word to sum up some things right now ... I totally get, and respect, that you may feel different and that’s obviously perfectly fine - have a great weekend

When you say “this figure has been debated long and hard elsewhere”, what you actually mean is it has been categorically demonstrated to you that it is actually an underestimate.

https://www.otib.co.uk/index.php?/topic/215017-vaccine-passport-plan-b/&do=findComment&comment=4267366

And I’ve also explained to you how your friend’s death would have been recorded.

https://www.otib.co.uk/index.php?/topic/215017-vaccine-passport-plan-b/&do=findComment&comment=4267366

So please stop perpetuating the myth that Covid deaths are overstated. That’s total bollocks. Oh and please also stop saying no one has died from Omicron in South Africa - again, total bollocks; they are being hospitalised, and they are dying (at a lower rate):

 

[Waconda]

5 minutes ago, Jacki said:

I’ve been coerced into going, against my better judgement, by my kids. We’re going to mask up when queueing to get in, get off the concourse and to our seats as soon as possible and head to the Lansdown upper so we have plenty of empty space around us. Our tickets are in S82 but I don’t fancy being crammed in there with everything that’s going  on.

Hooefully no stewards will be bothered to stop us moving seats. 

Will be lots of seats in S18 towards the back for sure.

[Waconda]

2 minutes ago, ChippenhamRed said:

When you say “this figure has been debated long and hard elsewhere”, what you actually mean is it has been categorically demonstrated to you that it is actually an underestimate.

https://www.otib.co.uk/index.php?/topic/215017-vaccine-passport-plan-b/&do=findComment&comment=4267366

And I’ve also explained to you how your friend’s death would have been recorded.

https://www.otib.co.uk/index.php?/topic/215017-vaccine-passport-plan-b/&do=findComment&comment=4267366

So please stop perpetuating the myth that Covid deaths are overstated. That’s total bollocks. Oh and please also stop saying no one has died from Omicron in South Africa - again, total bollocks; they are being hospitalised, and they are dying (at a lower rate):

 

Excess deaths tells you al you need to know.

If anything the COVID death rates are underestimated.

[GTFABM]

Been a season ticket for as long as i can remember and very rarely miss a game. Won’t be going today or for a few of the next because of the birth of my first baby 10 days ago. Perfect timing to be missing a few with the whole covid situation so was an easy decision. Won’t be long and my little man will be down the gate with me! COYR

[Kid in the Riot]

37 minutes ago, Harry said:

Hi mate. 
Regarding the 3rd vaccine. You’ve mentioned that the new variant is resistant to the first 2 shots. 
Now, I will hold my hands up and say I don’t know the ins and outs about how these things work, but from what I read, the first 2 vaccines were specifically designed to be able to attack the spike protein, also known as the S-Gene. 
With the new variant, they are confirming on the testing that you are positive for it if the test has S-Gene dropout. Basically meaning that the test hasn’t picked up evidence of the Spike Protein but only the other two primers, and that’s what makes it different to testing positive for the Delta variant. 
As far as I am aware, the 3rd vaccine contains exactly the same code as the previous 2, and is therefore designed to attack the S-Gene. 

So, given that a positive test for Omicron means there is no S-Gene and that the 3rd vaccine is designed to attack the S-Gene, how does the 3rd vaccine protect against omicron which doesn’t show the S-Gene it is supposed to attack? If there is no S-Gene to attack, what will it do instead?  
 

I’m sure there’s a a very good science behind it that I don’t really understand, so it would be good to get comment from anyone on here who knows more about this stuff than myself. Certainly RedRobbo usually has his finger on the trigger with this stuff. 
 

*note - This isn’t an anti-vax post. This is a genuine question over how the 3rd shot will work against the new variant when it’s stated that the first and second don’t. 

Yep, don't know the specific answer you're looking for. All I know is that the initial "real world" studies have thus far shown the booster to give much better immunity against Omicron.

Must admit, I had assumed it was purely for the reason that most people that have had the booster will have obviously only had it in the last few months, and so have better immunity purely because they have received the shot more recently. 

Those that had their second shot in say, March, will clearly have much reduced protection from covid now. 

If there is a more technical reason though then @Dr Balls may know!

[Harry]

14 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Yep, don't know the specific answer you're looking for. All I know is that the initial "real world" studies have thus far shown the booster to give much better immunity against Omicron.

Must admit, I had assumed it was purely for the reason that most people that have had the booster will have obviously only had it in the last few months, and so have better immunity purely because they have received the shot more recently. 

Those that had their second shot in say, March, will clearly have much reduced protection from covid now. 

If there is a more technical reason though then @Dr Balls may know!

Yep. I just think that, to the ‘layman’ such as myself, the 3rd one does the same as 1 & 2, and is specifically designed to attack the S-Gene, which apparently doesn’t show up on the omicron positive tests. Just seems strange how a vaccine designed to attack the S Gene would work any better given there is no S Gene visible on the test, regardless of when someone received it? 
That’s not to say that the 3rd one won’t still protect against Delta, but I just can’t see why it would protect against Omicron if it’s the same shot as 1 & 2. 

Edited December 18, 2021 by Harry

[Kid in the Riot]

12 minutes ago, Harry said:

Yep. I just think that, to the ‘layman’ such as myself, the 3rd one does the same as 1 & 2, and is specifically designed to attack the S-Gene, which apparently doesn’t show up on the omicron positive tests. Just seems strange how a vaccine designed to attack the S Gene would work any better given there is no S Gene visible on the test, regardless of when someone received it? 
That’s not to say that the 3rd one will still protect against Delta, but I just can’t see why it would protect against Omicron of it’s the same shot as 1 & 2. 

Don't know. There are things in medicine that appear to defy logic though. For example, antibiotics designed to treat infections, often help cure viruses. 

Regards the booster and omicron, it may be because the booster helps suppress the symptoms of covid, and ultimately both delta, Omicron, and indeed all covid variant symptoms are pretty similar I.e. continuous cough, fever, muscle aches etc

Edit: regarding my first point, as antibiotics can't kill viruses, one thing the government should be investing/researching a lot more is antivirals to treat covid. 

Edited December 18, 2021 by Kid in the Riot

[redsquirrel]

could it be the s gene is missing because the vaccines have already dealt with it?

[Waconda]

21 minutes ago, Harry said:

Yep. I just think that, to the ‘layman’ such as myself, the 3rd one does the same as 1 & 2, and is specifically designed to attack the S-Gene, which apparently doesn’t show up on the omicron positive tests. Just seems strange how a vaccine designed to attack the S Gene would work any better given there is no S Gene visible on the test, regardless of when someone received it? 
That’s not to say that the 3rd one won’t still protect against Delta, but I just can’t see why it would protect against Omicron if it’s the same shot as 1 & 2. 

Another way of looking at it is perhaps you are right and this is going to be far worse than the Government is letting on, determined to save the shareholders they are allowing the Xmas shopping to continue knowing that it will probably lead to thousands of avoidable deaths in the name of consumerism.

Until the whole world is vaccinated this will be an ongoing issue forever.

Edited December 18, 2021 by VT05763

[chinapig]

13 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Edit: regarding my first point, as antibiotics can't kill viruses, one thing the government should be investing/researching a lot more is antivirals to treat covid. 

FYI new anti virals have just been introduced:

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coronavirus-covid-19/treatments-for-coronavirus/

[Bristol Rob]

Spoke to my old man last night to tell him I wasn't going today as with Christmas just round the corner I didn't want to be in isolation or risk ruining it for various others if I get the vids.

He agreed it was probably sensible and he too was going to give the match today a miss.

He did an LFT this morning as he was feeling a bit iffy and got a positive result, so he is now off for a PCR, assuming that comes back positive there goes the Christmas plan we were hoping to keep by missing the game.

Seems no matter how careful people are trying to be, it's rife at the moment.

[Harry]

15 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

regarding my first point, as antibiotics can't kill viruses, one thing the government should be investing/researching a lot more is antivirals to treat covid. 

Yep. And that’s been one of my main points. The world should have been throwing everything they could at antivirals rather than just letting that particular science just creep along as normal whilst they instead threw everything at vaccines and lockdowns etc. 
 

I’m not gonna go over old ground, but I’m just amazed that more effort and resource wasn’t thrown at this. Yes, there are now some coming to market, but this could’ve been a lot quicker (and thus ahead of this new wave) had they poured the masses of cash, resource and focus on this. 

[Kid in the Riot]

5 minutes ago, chinapig said:

FYI new anti virals have just been introduced:

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coronavirus-covid-19/treatments-for-coronavirus/

Aware of that, but it's nowhere near at the required level yet and the government has not invested in this area strongly enough imo. 

Antivirals could help in significantly reducing hospitalisations, which in turn could help reduce restrictions such as covid passports. 

[Harry]

Just now, Kid in the Riot said:

Aware of that, but it's nowhere near at the required level yet and the government has not invested in this area strongly enough imo. 

Antivirals could help in significantly reducing hospitalisations, which in turn could help reduce restrictions such as covid passports. 

100%. I’ve made this point about a dozen times on here over the last week or so and have been rather viciously shot down. 
It’s a hugely valid point. 

[Fpcity]

15 hours ago, spudski said:

Tell me if I've misunderstood this...but this is bollox. We built at the beginning of covid temporary covid hospitals throughout the country.

They all got dismantled and never used, as we were told there wasn't enough drs and nurses ' specialised' to deal with covid.

During the height of covid this year, my father was in Southmead with Brain cancer. The hospital and wards were empty when I visited. Empty... literally.

So it's not beds that are a problem...it's staff. 

Surely we should be building more hospitals and educating staff, and paying them a decent wage. That should be the foremost action, especially as it's been two bloody years now and not expected to stop.

Two friggin years...that we've just accepted to live with and not change.

The NHS needs a major overhaul but is it too big to do? There's so many pointless jobs now, which just 1 of these could employ 3-4 nurses and I think I saw recently that someone high up said they have no idea how many managers there are. Lots of money gets wasted by having to use sub contracters to do simple work. 

[Harry]

1 minute ago, billywedlock said:

No idea why you keep repeating this false notion. They are. There are many studies in progress, with serious funding. But the side effects of these drugs are more serious than vaccination. Your comments are false and misguided. 

 

 

I only mentioned it again as KITR brought it up again. And he is someone who is very much of the same opinions as yourself on this. 
As I said, I’m not gonna go over this again, suffice to say, I think a helluva lot more could and should have been done in this area. 

[sh1t_ref_again]

11 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Aware of that, but it's nowhere near at the required level yet and the government has not invested in this area strongly enough imo. 

Antivirals could help in significantly reducing hospitalisations, which in turn could help reduce restrictions such as covid passports. 

With respect and I have agreed on all your posts on the subject so far, but evidence do you have on this? as my impression is that there has been a lot of focus and resource

[bengalcub]

Are their any spare tickets going for today just after 1 adult if someone doesn’t fancy it. Thanks 

[Fpcity]

2 hours ago, Sir Geoff said:

or we could cut the benefits of the 1.42 million freeloaders (not all I grant you), claiming unemployment benefit and train them for these jobs instead.

I expect there's lots of older people who would be interested in training to be a nurse or something else in the NHS but can't afford to quit their full time job and take out loans and grants for 3-4 years. There has to be an easier way to make it viable for the average person. 

[Waconda]

12 minutes ago, paul_fox said:

I expect there's lots of older people who would be interested in training to be a nurse or something else in the NHS but can't afford to quit their full time job and take out loans and grants for 3-4 years. There has to be an easier way to make it viable for the average person. 

They are going to be busy picking fruit in any case.

[robin_unreliant]

43 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Aware of that, but it's nowhere near at the required level yet and the government has not invested in this area strongly enough imo. 

Antivirals could help in significantly reducing hospitalisations, which in turn could help reduce restrictions such as covid passports. 

I'm currently involved in an NHS programme that matches new positive PCR cases to centrally held records of the more vulnerable (immuno-compromised etc) and arranges a clinical review to deliver either anti-viral or monoclonal antibody treatment. 

The idea being to improve the odds of avoiding serious illness. This is a national programme to maximise the impact of these new medications. 

I'm not clinical so can't comment on their effectiveness. I'm just one of the backroom managers in the NHS that Daily Mail readers hate but are trying to organise things like this. 

[myol'man]

Any extra restrictions in hospitality today?