Should Saturdays match be played?

[BrizzleRed]

1 hour ago, Harry said:

 

 

Mmmm….not really sure what part of my post was incorrect. 
More nurses. More NHS capacity, more focus on treatment to prevent hospitalisation. 
Are those things disagreeable to you both? 

The only thing you’ve missed out on is explaining where that magic money tree forest is!

The Welsh and Scots are now saying they’d like to re-introduce furlough, even though the government hasn’t actually closed anything down.  Drakeford was on this morning saying how unfair it was that the nasty UK government is being unfair to the devolved governments by not agreeing to pay up.

Anyone would think there was a bottom-less pit filled with money you can just dip into at will and never has to be paid back.

[Harry]

11 minutes ago, BrizzleRed said:

The only thing you’ve missed out on is explaining where that magic money tree forest is!

The Welsh and Scots are now saying they’d like to re-introduce furlough, even though the government hasn’t actually closed anything down.  Drakeford was on this morning saying how unfair it was that the nasty UK government is being unfair to the devolved governments by not agreeing to pay up.

Anyone would think there was a bottom-less pit filled with money you can just dip into at will and never has to be paid back.

The money has been there for everything else. 

[Harry]

21 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

I should be shocked at your level of ignorance, though as I suspect you're one of those unable to identify a library come Saturday afternoon, a bloke who lives in an estate akin a small US state given the size of your garden shed (replete with windows and door,) I'm not.

The word you were looking for (but couldn't find,) is therapeutics. As well as dictionaries libraries also hold a useful series of publications, newspaper and journals alike. Read those and you'll have discovered huge steps have been taken in not only identifying how existing drugs have successfully been deployed to counteract Covid but also new drugs developed and approved; sotrovimab and molnupiravir being the latest, with dozens more in the pipeline.

Now you've laid blame fully at the feet of Government, despite the fact Government neither develops nor approves therapeutics and treatment protocols, the latter being the responsibility of the Medicines and Healthcare Regulatory Agency (MHRA.) Hint: the word 'Agency' denotes a body funded by but wholly INDEPENDENT of its funder. Now they know their stuff and will readily confirm vaccines are treatments, despite your believing otherwise. Much as the concoction of drugs many of us take each day are treatments. They are because they cause our bodies to do things they would otherwise not of themselves do. It's called preventative treatment.

Correcting mistakes? Ball's more in your court than theirs.

So, broadly, you agree that early treatments (or indeed therapeutics - that wasn’t the word I was looking for, I used the term early treatments because that was exactly how I wanted to describe it) are worth investment. 
Oh, and no need to be so superior, arrogant and condescending about it. 

[BrizzleRed]

Just now, Harry said:

The money has been there for everything else. 

Yes and that has to be paid back too.

This is the real world, not some fluffy idealistic paradise where you wave a magic wand and every one of the world’s ills are fixed.  We all know a lot of things can be fixed by throwing money at it, but that can’t go on indefinitely when you can’t afford it.

By your comment, you suggest because we’ve already spent loads, there must be loads more available.  I think we’ll all be in for a rude awakening when we see what cuts will have to made to pay this lot back, let alone add even more to the huge debts.

[Out of his pie crust]

Insults, accusations, bickering.

it’s starting to look a lot like Christmas 

[BTRFTG]

5 minutes ago, Harry said:

So, broadly, you agree that early treatments (or indeed therapeutics - that wasn’t the word I was looking for, I used the term early treatments because that was exactly how I wanted to describe it) are worth investment. 
Oh, and no need to be so superior, arrogant and condescending about it. 

Nothing superior, arrogant or condescending, simply providing a public service in correcting untruths presented as fact. 

[GrahamC]

29 minutes ago, BrizzleRed said:

The only thing you’ve missed out on is explaining where that magic money tree forest is!

The Welsh and Scots are now saying they’d like to re-introduce furlough, even though the government hasn’t actually closed anything down.  Drakeford was on this morning saying how unfair it was that the nasty UK government is being unfair to the devolved governments by not agreeing to pay up.

Anyone would think there was a bottom-less pit filled with money you can just dip into at will and never has to be paid back.

That’s basically how the Scots & Welsh operate, England pays for it, they spend it.

[chinapig]

8 minutes ago, Harry said:

So, broadly, you agree that early treatments (or indeed therapeutics - that wasn’t the word I was looking for, I used the term early treatments because that was exactly how I wanted to describe it) are worth investment. 
Oh, and no need to be so superior, arrogant and condescending about it. 

On a point of information, the NHS is to use new anti virals:

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coronavirus-covid-19/treatments-for-coronavirus/

I imagine Pfizer's new anti viral Paxlovid will follow.

This is earlier research on treatments:

https://www.covid19treatmentguidelines.nih.gov/therapies/antiviral-therapy/

[Redtucks]

21 hours ago, sh1t_ref_again said:

I have little confidence in the system currently being used to stop the spread of this new variant. 

Vaccine passports are available if you have had 2 jabs, but it would seem Omicron variant can still be caught and spread readily by anyone with 2 jabs. If you have not been jabbed then you require a natural flow test, which not convinced on accuracy and anyone who thinks they are fine or is not bothered about spreading the virus and just wants to go to footy whatever, can just scan the test to say they are clear, without even taking the test.

Added to this the lack of requirement to wear a mask (although I think a few more will be wearing again)

We all want to watch live football, but at what cost?

I've been saying this all week, but have yet to see it questioned on any of the TV interviews/forums or whatever.

Vaccine passports should show vaccines including boosters or an official negative PCR test.

 

[BrizzleRed]

4 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

That’s basically how the Scots & Welsh operate, England pays for it, they spend it.

So true

I’ll bet if they ever get independence, they’ll still be expecting financial support from the UK for years.

[hollydog]

28 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

That’s basically how the Scots & Welsh operate, England pays for it, they spend it.

Need to be careful with that argument - (Scottish) North Sea Oil was the only thing that kept the Thatcher government solvent in the 80’s. 

[Redandproud]

44 minutes ago, Redtucks said:

I've been saying this all week, but have yet to see it questioned on any of the TV interviews/forums or whatever.

Vaccine passports should show vaccines including boosters or an official negative PCR test.

 

It does, whether fail or pass, on the official NHS app, 

[Redtucks]

17 minutes ago, Redandproud said:

It does, whether fail or pass, on the official NHS app, 

My point is that at present you need to show a vaccine passport (which does not show any booster jabs), or a negative lateral flow test result (which can be forged at home).

Even a PCR test, which seems to be mainly done by yourself in your car at a test centre, and can therefore easily be made to show a negative result, is not really satisfactory, unless it is caried out by a doctor/nurse or other trained staff.

 

[chinapig]

2 minutes ago, Redtucks said:

My point is that at present you need to show a vaccine passport (which does not show any booster jabs), or a negative lateral flow test result (which can be forged at home).

Even a PCR test, which seems to be mainly done by yourself in your car at a test centre, and can therefore easily be made to show a negative result, is not really satisfactory, unless it is caried out by a doctor/nurse or other trained staff.

 

Assuming you mean the NHS app, mine shows my booster.

[Harry]

1 hour ago, BrizzleRed said:

Yes and that has to be paid back too.

This is the real world, not some fluffy idealistic paradise where you wave a magic wand and every one of the world’s ills are fixed.  We all know a lot of things can be fixed by throwing money at it, but that can’t go on indefinitely when you can’t afford it.

By your comment, you suggest because we’ve already spent loads, there must be loads more available.  I think we’ll all be in for a rude awakening when we see what cuts will have to made to pay this lot back, let alone add even more to the huge debts.

My point was more that, all the money that’s been wasted on the other things could and should have been better spent trying to actually treat this virus rather than run away from it (lockdowns), max out the credit card (furlough), profligate (test & trace, wasteful ppe contracts etc) and provide false hope (3 vaccines in 9 months that still don’t protect). 

A lot of money, time and resource has gone on the strategies listed above. Yes, there are now, finally, some early treatments coming to market, but these should have been pushed, funded and provided support much much earlier, whilst the nhs capacity and personnel should have been dealt with 21 months ago. 
 

I don’t know why some people would argue against these points, they are perfectly reasonable and it’s clear the strategy that has been implemented since March 2020 has failed and we’re pretty much where we were this time last year.  This is simply an alternative strategy that would surely have seen us in a better place right now. 

[chinapig]

9 minutes ago, Harry said:

My point was more that, all the money that’s been wasted on the other things could and should have been better spent trying to actually treat this virus rather than run away from it (lockdowns), max out the credit card (furlough), profligate (test & trace, wasteful ppe contracts etc) and provide false hope (3 vaccines in 9 months that still don’t protect). 

A lot of money, time and resource has gone on the strategies listed above. Yes, there are now, finally, some early treatments coming to market, but these should have been pushed, funded and provided support much much earlier, whilst the nhs capacity and personnel should have been dealt with 21 months ago. 
 

I don’t know why some people would argue against these points, they are perfectly reasonable and it’s clear the strategy that has been implemented since March 2020 has failed and we’re pretty much where we were this time last year.  This is simply an alternative strategy that would surely have seen us in a better place right now. 

We don't live in a world where risk can be eliminated. What vaccines do is greatly reduce risk. Do we want, say, 75% protection or 0%?

Otherwise it's a bit like saying why bother with seat belts when some people wearing them still die in road accidents.

[Harry]

6 minutes ago, chinapig said:

We don't live in a world where risk can be eliminated. What vaccines do is greatly reduce risk. Do we want, say, 75% protection or 0%?

Otherwise it's a bit like saying why bother with seat belts when some people wearing them still die in road accidents.

But there have also been drugs available since early last year, way before vaccines came on stream, that could have prevented 50% to 75% of hospitalisations. 
Why didn’t we pour huge resource, research, funding into these? 

Edited December 17, 2021 by Harry

[chinapig]

3 minutes ago, Harry said:

But there have also been drugs available since early last year, way before vaccines came on stream, that could have prevented 50% to 75% of hospitalisations. 
Why didn’t we pour huge resource, research, funding into these? 

Your assertion was that vaccines do not protect, which is what I responded to.

Otherwise see my previous post on anti virals. What drugs are you referring to, given the links I provided and the world wide research into possible treatments? Do you have an alternative reputable source of information I may have missed on existing effective treatments the NHS has not been prepared to use?

[BrizzleRed]

5 minutes ago, Harry said:

My point was more that, all the money that’s been wasted on the other things could and should have been better spent trying to actually treat this virus rather than run away from it (lockdowns),

Most of the experts (and opposition parties)were calling for lockdowns and a few saying it should have been done sooner, so don’t know how that could have been avoided

max out the credit card (furlough), profligate

As they decided to follow the medical advice, do you really think they shouldn’t have provided furlough and thrown loads of jobs and business on the scrapheap?

(test & trace,

Our government were lambasted for not doing test and trace sooner, so are you saying this shouldn’t have actually been done?

wasteful ppe contracts etc)

So was that my imagination that care workers and the NHS staff were constantly calling for ever more PPE, even when it wasn’t seemingly available?  They were desperate times and required desperate measures.

and provide false hope (3 vaccines in 9 months that still don’t protect). 

Really???  So you don’t actually think those vaccines have saved a huge amount of lives and prevented a massive overload on the NHS?  I’d hate to think where we’d be now without them.  I think any false hope was created by the media, rather than by the government tbh.

A lot of money, time and resource has gone on the strategies listed above. Yes, there are now, finally, some early treatments coming to market, but these should have been pushed, funded and provided support much much earlier,

How do you know they weren’t? These things don’t happen overnight and the shole world are trying to catch up and get to grips with this virus. You can’t just snap your fingers and you get what you want …. Instantly

whilst the nhs capacity and personnel should have been dealt with 21 months ago. 

This was a massive fire fighting exercise and that’s why the goverment were trying to get retired NHS staff back in as support.  You can’t suddenly get loads of new staff trained up in a few weeks.  Then we had the Nightingale hospitals set up to try to increase capacity if needed.

I don’t know why some people would argue against these points, they are perfectly reasonable and it’s clear the strategy that has been implemented since March 2020 has failed and we’re pretty much where we were this time last year.  This is simply an alternative strategy that would surely have seen us in a better place right now. 

I beg to differ. We’re nowhere near where we were at the start.  We’ve got better treatments to deal with the most sick, such as better ventilation processes and medication and we’re massively reducing hospitalisation and deaths.

To be totally honest, even with the benefit of hindsight, your post appears to be criticism for criticism’s sake and bear in mind, the whole world have been learning as they go along with this.  
 

There’s no disputing we got off on a bad footing at the start and were slow off the mark, but I honestly don’t think they’ve done that badly since, all things considered.

 

[Harry]

17 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Your assertion was that vaccines do not protect, which is what I responded to.

Otherwise see my previous post on anti virals. What drugs are you referring to, given the links I provided and the world wide research into possible treatments? Do you have an alternative reputable source of information I may have missed on existing effective treatments the NHS has not been prepared to use?

I didn’t suggest vaccines don’t protect. I’ve previously said plenty of times that they do work - particularly for the most vulnerable. 
I said they have provided a false hope. Clearly they haven’t been our “route to freedom”. They work, in some people, and then they wane. Quite quickly. That’s why I said false hope. 
 

As for treatments, why was hydroxychloroquine so swiftly politicised and cast away. Same with ivermectin. 
There are plenty of high level doctors, physicians, epidemiologists, scientists out there who have been advocating the use of certain early, out-patients treatments since early 2020. For some reason no single government has been prepared to listen to their studies and help further the research. 

These professionals, who know more than anyone on this forum, are succinctly summarised by Dr Peter McCollough, not only in his testimony to the US Senate, but you’ll find a fascinating 3 hour insight on Joe Rogan’s podcast last week. 

[Harry]

22 minutes ago, BrizzleRed said:

 

You are taking my comments and being very black or white with them and not filling in any blanks because you are not prepared to accept any alternative. 

Lockdowns - I didn’t say it wasn’t necessary in the initial phase. But this certainly wasn’t necessary for as long as it lasted. And then repeated. 
Furlough - I didn’t say furlough was a bad thing or unnecessary. But, as with lockdowns, this was far too long and far too costly. It shouldn’t have been necessary for nyon 18 months. 
Test & Trace - I didn’t say it was unnecessary. I said we wasted a lot of money on it. Anyone who argues against that is a hypocrite, as it’s been a huge complaint from pretty much everyone. 
PPE - I didn’t say we didn’t need PPE. I said a lot of money wasted on PPE contracts. Again, this is a pretty mainstream opinion, no doubt shared by yourself. 
Vaccines - I didn’t say they didn’t work. I said they provided false hope - see my response to China Pig above. 
Early Treatments - Yes, I realise this is a process that needs to be researched and authorised. I’d question why certain drugs that were already approved for other treatments were swiftly shut down and became taboo. 
NHS Capacity - Yes, there was the initial boost in March to bring in additional support - but what’s happened since? Derisory pay rises, no huge recruitment drive, no new hospitals, no increased icu spaces etc. 

Edited December 17, 2021 by Harry

[ChippenhamRed]

Just to put to bed the nonsense suggestion that people aren’t dying of Omicron - they are. And they’re being hospitalised too.

Fortunately the proportions are lower than with previous waves, but cases weren’t doubling every two days then. So we could end up overwhelming the NHS through sheer numbers.

So ignore anyone who tries to tell you Omicron is mild, and therefore it doesn’t matter. It’s nowhere near that simple.

 

[BTRFTG]

13 minutes ago, Harry said:

I didn’t suggest vaccines don’t protect. I’ve previously said plenty of times that they do work - particularly for the most vulnerable. 
I said they have provided a false hope. Clearly they haven’t been our “route to freedom”. They work, in some people, and then they wane. Quite quickly. That’s why I said false hope. 
 

As for treatments, why was hydroxychloroquine so swiftly politicised and cast away. Same with ivermectin. 
There are plenty of high level doctors, physicians, epidemiologists, scientists out there who have been advocating the use of certain early, out-patients treatments since early 2020. For some reason no single government has been prepared to listen to their studies and help further the research. 

These professionals, who know more than anyone on this forum, are succinctly summarised by Dr Peter McCollough, not only in his testimony to the US Senate, but you’ll find a fascinating 3 hour insight on Joe Rogan’s podcast last week. 

So you're now resorting to citing an unemployed and discredited cardiologist hosted by a shock-jock UFC commentating comedian. Strange you neglect to reference what both Senate and the US medical profession had to say about McCollough.

Look forward to what evidence you'll dredge up next - Chris Kamara having David Icke explain how purple tracksuits repel the virus?

What a bizarre existence you enjoy.

[TonyTonyTony]

31 minutes ago, Harry said:

These professionals, who know more than anyone on this forum, are succinctly summarised by Dr Peter McCollough, not only in his testimony to the US Senate, but you’ll find a fascinating 3 hour insight on Joe Rogan’s podcast last week. 

Citing a Covid nutter now? Have a day off. Jesus

[BrizzleRed]

25 minutes ago, Harry said:

You are taking my comments and being very black or white with them and not filling in any blanks because you are not prepared to accept any alternative. 

Lockdowns - I didn’t say it wasn’t necessary in the initial phase. But this certainly wasn’t necessary for as long as it lasted. And then repeated. 
Furlough - I didn’t say furlough was a bad thing or unnecessary. But, as with lockdowns, this was far too long and far too costly. It shouldn’t have been necessary for nyon 18 months. 
Test & Trace - I didn’t say it was unnecessary. I said we wasted a lot of money on it. Anyone who argues against that is a hypocrite, as it’s been a huge complaint from pretty much everyone. 
PPE - I didn’t say we didn’t need PPE. I said a lot of money wasted on PPE contracts. Again, this is a pretty mainstream opinion, no doubt shared by yourself. 
Vaccines - I didn’t say they didn’t work. I said they provided false hope - see my response to China Pig above. 
Early Treatments - Yes, I realise this is a process that needs to be researched and authorised. I’d question why certain drugs that were already approved for other treatments were swiftly shut down and became taboo. 
NHS Capacity - Yes, there was the initial boost in March to bring in additional support - but what’s happened since? Derisory pay rises, no huge recruitment drive, no new hospitals, no increased icu spaces etc. 

Ok get your point that you weren’t actually against some of these things, but show me an urgent crisis where there hasn’t been waste.  

I still maintain your post seemed to be aimed at putting a negative slant on any point you could possibly find and I don’t think that was down to my interpretation, but there you go.

As for your comments about waste, you can’t spend weeks in a crisis too’ing and fro’ing negotiating contracts, whilst people are dying in their thousands.  That was a time to get contacts done quickly to get what was needed, so I think they can be cut some slack on those cases.  It’s also easy to be wise after the facts, especially when judging lengths of lock-downs, etc.

Fair enough on the future NHS and you can’t keep running it at 95% + capacity indefinitely and expect it to hold up, so something definitely needs to be done there for certain..

[IAmNick]

3 hours ago, BrizzleRed said:

The only thing you’ve missed out on is explaining where that magic money tree forest is!

The Welsh and Scots are now saying they’d like to re-introduce furlough, even though the government hasn’t actually closed anything down.  Drakeford was on this morning saying how unfair it was that the nasty UK government is being unfair to the devolved governments by not agreeing to pay up.

Anyone would think there was a bottom-less pit filled with money you can just dip into at will and never has to be paid back.

Wait, where do you think the government gets its money from?

They literally do have a bottom-less pit filled with money they can dip into at will and never have to pay back. Of course it'd be mad to do so blindly for other reasons, but they (in theory) could do if they wanted to.

[Harry]

34 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

So you're now resorting to citing an unemployed and discredited cardiologist hosted by a shock-jock UFC commentating comedian. Strange you neglect to reference what both Senate and the US medical profession had to say about McCollough.

Look forward to what evidence you'll dredge up next - Chris Kamara having David Icke explain how purple tracksuits repel the virus?

What a bizarre existence you enjoy.

 

21 minutes ago, TonyTonyTony said:

Citing a Covid nutter now? Have a day off. Jesus

Ha ha. I fully expected this sort of reply. 
McCoullough is very much more of an expert than you or I, and has certainly treated more covid patients than you or I. 
But of course, someone of such vast experience in this field and first hand experience of treating covid, who challenges the accepted narrative is “discredited” and “a nutter”. 

 

[chinapig]

54 minutes ago, Harry said:

I didn’t suggest vaccines don’t protect. I’ve previously said plenty of times that they do work - particularly for the most vulnerable. 
I said they have provided a false hope. Clearly they haven’t been our “route to freedom”. They work, in some people, and then they wane. Quite quickly. That’s why I said false hope. 
 

As for treatments, why was hydroxychloroquine so swiftly politicised and cast away. Same with ivermectin. 
There are plenty of high level doctors, physicians, epidemiologists, scientists out there who have been advocating the use of certain early, out-patients treatments since early 2020. For some reason no single government has been prepared to listen to their studies and help further the research. 

These professionals, who know more than anyone on this forum, are succinctly summarised by Dr Peter McCollough, not only in his testimony to the US Senate, but you’ll find a fascinating 3 hour insight on Joe Rogan’s podcast last week. 

The answers to your questions are in the second link I provided above. You can follow through to the randomised controlled trials if you want clinical evidence from a reputable source.

[Bristol Rob]

602million of the Horizon 2020 funding has so far been spent on Covid related science.

The problem is that despite it still being a pot of money UK scientists cam still (technically) access, the reality is that since Brexit that route is far more challenging as the EU and the UK are still formalising how that will work, leaving a lot of research in limbo, or with the UK only having co-author status, rather than a primary status.

[myol'man]

Back on topic

Will/should the game go ahead?