City release accounts - Ouch!

[Taz]

1 hour ago, Lanterne Rouge said:

Interesting. I never knew that was the situation. Do you think it still applied to private businesses as well as `public` ones like your school?

No idea, but it may be something to bear in mind.

May well be that as BCFC is a private company, they could effectively have done what they wanted to. 

[Fammyfan]

4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

It was partially why I was quite happy for them to eff off….I thought it would facilitate a reset.

I mentioned earlier about Nige saying he wanted a trimmer squad.  One of the other things he mentioned was salary parity, so I think the high earners are the priority to either:

- move on (not easy)

- re-contract on lower wages (not easy either)

So, yes, more trimming in the summer too, depending what we can shift in January.  I see Moore going to Hearts permanently or at least obligation to buy (not option to buy) in the summer if we extend his loan.

More minutes for Benarous, Conway, Towler etc.. Scott is already a bonafide first teamer in my head.

Quite simply, clubs realising the financial impacts of hugely reduced revenues.

I understand that the spending power of all clubs suffered from covid which resulted in the crash of the transfer market but we didn’t have any obvious high value assets that covid has prevented us from selling with the exception of Diedhiou, Elliasson and Morrell. All of which would not have made big money due to their contractual  circumstances.

I can’t think of many others that would have had any real value, players like Massengo and Semenyo could have been sold but it would have been premature to make the kind of money we’d have wanted.

That’s the worrying thing, one of the main things mentioned was the crash in the transfer market but we didn’t have the assets to capitalise even if the transfer market had been strong. I don’t think the impact caused is as big as suggested.

Last year was a total disaster with covid but it would have also been a disaster without covid due to the lack of resale value within our squad.

We can sugar coat it with covid but the recruitment has been poor and we were destined to finish with heavy losses, with or without covid.

 

[Bristol Rob]

Given the way we gift goals, could our financial situation be improved by making City a charity?

[Pezo]

12 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

@Mr Popodopolous

Have just read the full set of accounts….I stand corrected, I think we impaired his contract ahead of the summer to fall into 20/21’s accounts (where the losses will be halved). Smart.

Good spot, apologies for dismissing it.

I was wondering if certain things had been moved forward to get us close to the line this year, negotiate with the EFL, blame COVID and get as much taken off of FFP (or whatever the cool kids call it now) and then have it a bit easier (if that’s the word) next year.

[Davefevs]

Just now, Pezo said:

I was wondering if certain things had been moved forward to get us close to the line this year, negotiate with the EFL, blame COVID and get as much taken off of FFP (or whatever the cool kids call it now) and then have it a bit easier (if that’s the word) next year.

I don’t think we want to get close, but if there are some costs (like Nagy’s impairment) that you could bring into 20/21, then it’s a smart move.

[Waconda]

1 minute ago, billywedlock said:

I feel we have maximised all we could to take advantage of any pain and flexibility that is available. I am very interested now to see what happens with Palmer, JD, Wells  and Kalas

Kalas, Bentley and Scott are the 3 we could sell for decent(ish) money still.

If we are to sign players in January then you would have to think at least one of these would have to be sacrificed. Kalas the most likely - IMO.

We should be due a sell on if Kelly goes to West Ham, assuming we put one in !

[Mr Popodopolous]

Been reading the Derby thread on our losses. Some constructive posts on there but some bits I disagree with too. Few observations.

1) We have not yet IMO exceeded £39m in losses. Derby as indeed all clubs will be able to halve Covid losses so the combined loss for us was between £24-25m.

2) Exclusive of FFP allowances.

3) Or Covid losses. (£11m last season, maybe £13-14m in total)?

4) Again applicable to all clubs.

5) I fear that the issue could be next season and certainly we'll be unable to spend relatively freely until 2023/24.

6) if we get punished with an Embargo and points it's due to bad mismanagement, nothing else.

7) I would be annoyed...not at the EFL but the largely former hierarchy who steered us onto the rocks if it happened.

8 ) Especially given that as a club we have been very pro FFP. That would be severe mismanagement.

9) I don't see why SL would put us into administration, we've had our peaks and troughs under him but it wouldn't really be in keeping with his past conduct.

10) EFL Business Plan? I actually kinda hope that WE would have initiated such talks, that our FFP position was heading for trouble and perhaps arrange a plan to work with the EFL on wage levels, amortisation falling etc.

[Sleepy1968]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I’m not sure of the arguments for and against and I bet you and @Lrrrcouod go “hammer and tongs” on the subject, but…

…for me in the current climate we need to maximise getting youngsters through our Academy, whether we nab them from other Academies at the right age, or they come all the way through us.

@Mr Popodopolous Gary Glitter

Obviously does not want to be in @Mr Popodopolous's gang.

[Davefevs]

7 minutes ago, billywedlock said:

I feel we have maximised all we could to take advantage of any pain and flexibility that is available. I am very interested now to see what happens with Palmer, JD, Wells  and Kalas

We’ve started the heavy lifting in the summer, my estimates of £10-13m slashed off the costs (wages and amortisation) is no mean feet.  Let’s see what we can move in January if only on loan.  Hopefully revenues will get back to somewhere between the £18m in this set of accounts and the £30m 2 years back.

[ExiledAjax]

6 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

We’ve started the heavy lifting in the summer, my estimates of £10-13m slashed off the costs (wages and amortisation) is no mean feet.  Let’s see what we can move in January if only on loan.  Hopefully revenues will get back to somewhere between the £18m in this set of accounts and the £30m 2 years back.

Has AG been back operating as a general commercial venue as it did pre-covid? Has the stadium been hosting stuff like that vegan roadshow thing again?

Also, I assume we're planning a "full programme" of concerts in summer 2022? Edit. Just seen we have 2x dates for Elton's tour plus one date for the Killers (postponed from earlier). I'd assume we're looking to do at least one more if someone is touring. Should help.

Not being in Bristol I have no real idea about this side of it. 

Edited December 28, 2021 by ExiledAjax

[Davefevs]

11 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Been reading the Derby thread on our losses. Some constructive posts on there but some bits I disagree with too. Few observations.

1) We have not yet IMO exceeded £39m in losses. Derby as indeed all clubs will be able to halve Covid losses so the combined loss for us was between £24-25m.

2) Exclusive of FFP allowances.

3) Or Covid losses. (£11m last season, maybe £13-14m in total)?

4) Again applicable to all clubs.

5) I fear that the issue could be next season and certainly we'll be unable to spend relatively freely until 2023/24.

6) if we get punished with an Embargo and points it's due to bad mismanagement, nothing else.

7) I would be annoyed...not at the EFL but the largely former hierarchy who steered us onto the rocks if it happened.

8 ) Especially given that as a club we have been very pro FFP. That would be severe mismanagement.

9) I don't see why SL would put us into administration, we've had our peaks and troughs under him but it wouldn't really be in keeping with his past conduct.

10) EFL Business Plan? I actually kinda hope that WE would have initiated such talks, that our FFP position was heading for trouble and perhaps arrange a plan to work with the EFL on wage levels, amortisation falling etc.

If we can get back into the realms of income of £25m (or better), costs of £45m, then taking the covid allowance off of the £38.4m and the usual FFP exemptions, then I think we run neutral over the next set of FFP cycles.  Signings like Tanner will be fine.  As it stands our amortisation cost for 23/24 is less than £1m, that’s £10.5m less than this set of accounts.

5 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Has AG been back operating as a general commercial venue as it did pre-covid? Has the stadium been hosting stuff like that vegan roadshow thing again? Also, I assume we're planning a "full programme" of concerts in summer 2022? Not being in Bristol I have no real idea about this side of it. 

I don’t know.

[Hampshire reds]

how on earth did steve let Mark Ashton get this club in a mess. 38m losses is unbelievable. god help Ipswich with him in charge.

[Alessandro]

We're seeing the result in numbers of what we already knew - under MA and LJ the club sailed too close to wind, trading quality for quantity that simply bloated our wage bill to the limit of what we could afford.

Covid pushed us over the limit. 

Even before covid we all sensed we'd have rein in the spending, Lansdown "went for it" financially with LJ didn't he - but the huge 40%+ revenue drop from the lockdowns have hit us hard.

MA oversaw this, could see the storm clouds ahead, so his jumping ship makes all the more sense. 

Tough few seasons ahead to say the least and frankly more than ever I'm happy to have the experienced heads we have attempting to navigate us out these waters. 

[IAmNick]

From that twitter thread linked:

Average 1st team wage is 16k? Can that really be true?! I know average isn't always the best measure as it can be heavily skewed, but as far as I know we don't have any 40k+'ers who would do that.

Looking at that squad, and who there has some value that's unbelievable.

[RedRock]

3 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

We're seeing the result in numbers of what we already knew - under MA and LJ the club sailed too close to wind, trading quality for quantity that simply bloated our wage bill to the limit of what we could afford.

Covid pushed us over the limit. 

Even before covid we all sensed we'd have rein in the spending, Lansdown "went for it" financially with LJ didn't he - but the huge 40%+ revenue drop from the lockdowns have hit us hard.

MA oversaw this, could see the storm clouds ahead, so his jumping ship makes all the more sense. 

Tough few seasons ahead to say the least and frankly more than ever I'm happy to have the experienced heads we have attempting to navigate us out these waters. 

Agree. 

All these figures make it even more frustrating that our eye-wateringly big earners just aren’t pulling their weight. 

Yes, the argument is we offered them the money, select the playing positions and tactics, but if 3 different managers can’t get a consistent tune out of them maybe they need to look in the mirror. 

[Lrrr]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

for me in the current climate we need to maximise getting youngsters through our Academy, whether we nab them from other Academies at the right age, or they come all the way through us.

Thing is I've only known us to pay a fee for one player to come into the academy, we don't pinch players from academies of lower levels then us so what added benefit would moving up a category serve us in that regard? Our recruitment for academy is to either look at players released from other academies or those of amateur clubs, the two examples of players who joined City aged 16+ lately where we've done this are Francois and Scott, no higher level of academy required you just need to be smart with who you bring in. Players either need to be good enough for the 1st team or they need to be able to be loaned out as U23's football isn't a system that will help the players whether its playing in Cat 1 or Cat 2. The number of Cat 1 and 2 academy players on loan in the football league shows this. The other key point people are talking about City changing their academy structure atm, the crop of Bell, Pearson, Conway, Benarous, Low, Towler etc they're the first group of players to be produced since EPPP was introduced, ie the first batch to go through the system completely under EPPP and its produced a batch of 4 or 5 players who could be 1st team players and a system where we've recruited others who could be. Yet we're talking about spending millions more to change that system where we're only just now seeing results? Personally I think we'll see more cat 1 clubs who don't have premier league money drop down to cat 2 or maybe even 3 in the next 5 or so years.

[bcfc01]

4 hours ago, spudski said:

Similar to me. It wasn't so much the money for me, just the ball ache of getting there, either by car or public transport. 

Plus...I was bored with it. It just wasn't entertainment. Regardless of results.

I now watch my local team. Can decide 15 mins before to go, have a few pints, stand or sit anywhere around the ground, see mates etc....plus I find it more entertaining. 

It's been cathartic and feels like FREEDOM.

All for a tenner and no hassles. 

What's not to like.

4 hours ago, bris red said:

I’ve been the same. I’ve got back into playing golf again after a bit of time away from the game and that takes up most of my Saturday’s now to be honest!

Sad that loyal lifelong fans are staying away but things at the club need to change before i come back in a committed way as i have in the past.

Lifelong fan ? 

 

Sorry to pick on these two (could of been a load of others), but it always amuses me that people announce that they aren't supporters anymore as if it matters to anyone except themselves. Just devalues their contribution on this site.

Bit like flouncing off the forum with a long post on why they've left - who the **** gives a shit ?

Just go.

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 hours ago, Pezo said:

So do you think there will be more player cutbacks over the summer with ooc players like last season?

Not sure we have enough players .

Simpson for one. King out of contract and his age- would that be 2? Not that they save on amortisation and I don't see them as major earners.

Moore to Hearts permanently-could Cundy step up as 4th CB?

Sure people can think of others. Martin is also out of contract but should we be looking to keep him- or can we afford it?

[Alessandro]

2 minutes ago, RedRock said:

Agree. 

All these figures make it even more frustrating that our eye-wateringly big earners just aren’t pulling their weight. 

Yes, the argument is we offered them the money, select the playing positions and tactics, but if 3 different managers can’t get a consistent tune out of them maybe they need to look in the mirror. 

It's not just the huge list of poor MA signings that has frustratingly regressed us from a playing point of view - but worse:

The list of mismanaged player contracts that cost us revenue and the poor, vastly over paid signings that are now hamstringing us financially too. 

[Davefevs]

10 minutes ago, IAmNick said:

From that twitter thread linked:

Average 1st team wage is 16k? Can that really be true?! I know average isn't always the best measure as it can be heavily skewed, but as far as I know we don't have any 40k+'ers who would do that.

Looking at that squad, and who there has some value that's unbelievable.

I can only think he uses some formula, e.g. wage bill x 80% (4/5th of club wages are playing staff) / 30 (average playing squad).  Something like that???

Ill ask him!

[BigAl&Toby]

12 hours ago, Fordy62 said:

Glad to have Lansdown, but these figures are by and large his fault. 

We had a really trim quality squad that needed two or three additions. Then he let Johnson and Ashton take him to the cleaners and treble the wage bill. This was always coming. 

I’m not reading page after page of this.

Twas always going to be so. And for the avoidance of doubt I’m not so sure I’m as glad as some are to have the Messiah. Oh **** me, here he goes again…..

He might have deep pockets. He might have a stand named after him. He might be loved by the many.

But he’s the reason we’re in this ******* mess. He’s the monkey at the top of the tree. He’s the Ultimate Beneficial Owner who carries the can and the one who makes the decisions.

How can someone who’s clearly so successful elsewhere make such a **** up of our football club.

But Steve, Mrs Steve and Steve Jnr are ok. They have ultimate control. And a fixed charge over the whole shooting match. And everything else in BS3……

In Steve we trust?

[Davefevs]

6 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

Thing is I've only known us to pay a fee for one player to come into the academy, we don't pinch players from academies of lower levels then us so what added benefit would moving up a category serve us in that regard? Our recruitment for academy is to either look at players released from other academies or those of amateur clubs, the two examples of players who joined City aged 16+ lately where we've done this are Francois and Scott, no higher level of academy required you just need to be smart with who you bring in. Players either need to be good enough for the 1st team or they need to be able to be loaned out as U23's football isn't a system that will help the players whether its playing in Cat 1 or Cat 2. The number of Cat 1 and 2 academy players on loan in the football league shows this. The other key point people are talking about City changing their academy structure atm, the crop of Bell, Pearson, Conway, Benarous, Low, Towler etc they're the first group of players to be produced since EPPP was introduced, ie the first batch to go through the system completely under EPPP and its produced a batch of 4 or 5 players who could be 1st team players and a system where we've recruited others who could be. Yet we're talking about spending millions more to change that system where we're only just now seeing results? Personally I think we'll see more cat 1 clubs who don't have premier league money drop down to cat 2 or maybe even 3 in the next 5 or so years.

Bakinson? Hinds?  Or do you not count them as Academy?

What about Pring?

even if compo?

[Pickle Rick]

A couple of things to consider if not seen. Namely the Wages to Turnover and Owner Financing. More so, the fact that other clubs around Bristol City are in the shitter.

https://twitter.com/SwissRamble/status/1470649243354472449?t=iKh0anZycViqYgaijORHBA&s=19

Edited December 28, 2021 by Pickle Rick

[Loosey Boy]

As others have said, I’m just glad that in Nige and Gould, we have experience at the helm at a time when our ship will be in need to some serious steering through the choppy waters that we’ll experience over the next 18 months or so……

Now’s the time for us supporters to get right behind the management team and players.

COYRs! 

[CyderInACan]

2 hours ago, GrahamC said:

You’re right, it isn’t.

We never bought Sean McCarthy either, he was only on loan for 7 games.

I have a lot of time for him, unlike Jason Roberts (who we signed on loan at the same time but who had a row with Ward about playing for Grenada & buggered off after 3 games) McCarthy gave his best & even played in that Preston game despite his father passing away in the week. Not his fault we sold Goater, either.

Can’t imagine many loan players showing that sort of commitment these days.

I’d imagine he was just finally glad to get here. Weren’t we after him for about 5 or 6 years and by the time we finally got our man he was far from the player we’d originally (Tony) targeted. 

[Lrrr]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Bakinson? Hinds?  Or do you not count them as Academy?

What about Pring?

even if compo?

I tend to only count it if you've paid compensation rather than agreeing a fee with the club, having said that the one I mentioned was an agreed deal as well, so in reality I don't know any time we've used EPPP category status to pinch a player from a category below us. I honestly don't know the details of Pring's deal whether it was compo or an agreed fee. If anything would make the point if we're just agreeing deals with the clubs we're not going through the EPPP compo and therefore another reason not to need to bump up a category if we don't go about that way if we don't recruit that way. Tyreeq and Freddie were both agreed deals as I assume both had signed pro deals at Luton and therefore couldn't be pinched under EPPP.

[Davefevs]

Ta, makes sense.

[Davefevs]

18 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I can only think he uses some formula, e.g. wage bill x 80% (4/5th of club wages are playing staff) / 30 (average playing squad).  Something like that???

Ill ask him!

Had a FM from Kieran.

[!james]

https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/38870-bristol-city-next-to-fail-p-and-s/#comments

Crikey @Mr Popodopolousgets about! Why on earth does every Derby fan on there hate him?! 

[Mr Popodopolous]

20 minutes ago, BigAl&Toby said:

I’m not reading page after page of this.

Twas always going to be so. And for the avoidance of doubt I’m not so sure I’m as glad as some are to have the Messiah. Oh **** me, here he goes again…..

He might have deep pockets. He might have a stand named after him. He might be loved by the many.

But he’s the reason we’re in this ******* mess. He’s the monkey at the top of the tree. He’s the Ultimate Beneficial Owner who carries the can and the one who makes the decisions.

How can someone who’s clearly so successful elsewhere make such a **** up of our football club.

But Steve, Mrs Steve and Steve Jnr are ok. They have ultimate control. And a fixed charge over the whole shooting match. And everything else in BS3……

In Steve we trust?

I'm not as down on SL as you, there have been ups and downs and I doubt he'll see us slide into administration or insolvency but certainly a good point about that fixed charge.

That £70m loan, indeed secured against the ground and everything else. Have a few concerns about that loan. First noticed it last season.