City release accounts - Ouch!

[Pickle Rick]

10 hours ago, Pickle Rick said:

A couple of things to consider if not seen. Namely the Wages to Turnover and Owner Financing. More so, the fact that other clubs around Bristol City are in the shitter.

https://twitter.com/SwissRamble/status/1470649243354472449?t=iKh0anZycViqYgaijORHBA&s=19

Furthermore from this. Here's the breakdown:

https://twitter.com/KieranMaguire/status/1475835655192203280?t=k43rh5WkNsKLpLloY4geJQ&s=19

[Alessandro]

10 hours ago, Pickle Rick said:

A couple of things to consider if not seen. Namely the Wages to Turnover and Owner Financing. More so, the fact that other clubs around Bristol City are in the shitter.

https://twitter.com/SwissRamble/status/1470649243354472449?t=iKh0anZycViqYgaijORHBA&s=19

Agreed. That list shows several clubs that will be in very similar positions to us.

9 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Good sensible post Dave, but I wouldn't worry about the ban - you're fighting a losing battle there, understandably most of the Derby fans are so desperate for a crumb of comfort many can't look at other clubs objectively.

To those of them trying to compare situations - the reality is the similarities end with = wages % vs turnover %. Well lads, welcome to the championship where over half the teams are at over 100% of turnover on wages.

And the idea that we're in the shit if our owner pulls the plug. Well lads, welcome to the championship where 100% of the teams would be in the shit if the owner pulls the plug. 

Edited December 29, 2021 by Alessandro

[Olé]

9 minutes ago, The Humble Realist said:

I dont really see what it has to do with FFP, I'm more surprised /confused why we would say holden was interim manager when he wasnt ? What does anyone have to gain by that?

To be fair it simply says he was appointed on an interim basis in July which is true (prior to the end of the season), it then says he was appointed permanently in August. The directors report is just a summary of key activities that affect the business. The only contention is that we describe Downing and Simpson joining in July under his interim management (not true) and continuing when he was appointed permanently. I don't believe there is anything to be achieved by this so I am putting it down to the author having a poor memory of events.

[Lrrr]

1 hour ago, VT05763 said:

We do "pinch" players from other Academies of similar and lower levels than us though.

Not sure where you heard we don't.

We agree deals with the club rather than use EPPP to just pay compensation though it’s not the same Owura Edwards, Hinds, Bakinson we agreed deals with their clubs vs Maddox, Kane and Wade being taken via compensation is different 

[Fordy62]

2 minutes ago, Olé said:

To be fair it simply says he was appointed on an interim basis in July which is true (prior to the end of the season), it then says he was appointed permanently in August. The directors report is just a summary of key activities that affect the business. The only contention is that we describe Downing and Simpson joining in July under his interim management (not true) and continuing when he was appointed permanently. I don't believe there is anything to be achieved by this so I am putting it down to the author having a poor memory of events.

I don’t know what’s worse… blatantly  lying on the reports, or writing them from memory!  

[KegCity]

What’s the obsession with checking other fans forums to see what they’re saying about our losses? Who cares?

[petehinton]

3 hours ago, Olé said:

Thanks for sharing this @Davefevs - based on the huge number of staff reported in our accounts and the commercial income typically achieved (outside Covid) at the redeveloped Ashton Gate (3rd best in the division) I'm going to suggest our ratio is not at the 0.725 Kieran uses but a bit better than at most clubs. At 0.6 our players average weekly wage is not 16k but 13k, at 0.5 (extreme but then we have got 560 odd staff) the average falls to £11k. £16k sounds too high to me.

Incidentally, @petehintonwas involved so can tell me if I've got this wrong, but the admin staff kept off furlough to then help the Community Trust outreach during Covid (delivering meals etc) in a year the business itself is losing £40m - that is the measure of the club and it's commitment to the local area. I know many people gave their time for free but let's not forget that an organisation anticipating this bombscare of a financial results still put its hand in its pocket to help others.

Yup, with the idea to start it heavily pushed & supported by…Kasey Palmer.
 

Dunno if it would fall into this set of accounts too, but they were guesstimating that the weekly covid tests  for players and staff was in the region of £5k a week too

Edited December 29, 2021 by petehinton

[Davefevs]

3 hours ago, Olé said:

Thanks for sharing this @Davefevs - based on the huge number of staff reported in our accounts and the commercial income typically achieved (outside Covid) at the redeveloped Ashton Gate (3rd best in the division) I'm going to suggest our ratio is not at the 0.725 Kieran uses but a bit better than at most clubs. At 0.6 our players average weekly wage is not 16k but 13k, at 0.5 (extreme but then we have got 560 odd staff) the average falls to £11k. £16k sounds too high to me.

Incidentally, @petehintonwas involved so can tell me if I've got this wrong, but the admin staff kept off furlough to then help the Community Trust outreach during Covid (delivering meals etc) in a year the business itself is losing £40m - that is the measure of the club and it's commitment to the local area. I know many people gave their time for free but let's not forget that an organisation anticipating this bombscare of a financial results still put its hand in its pocket to help others.

In City’s case, I agree, it looks a bit high….but useful as a consistent method for ballpark comparison across the division at least.

I usually err on the low side for wages in my xls, but with things like appearance and win bonuses, who knows what they might earn.  Ok, we aren’t paying out much in win bonuses, but perhaps our players are / were on a bit more than we think.  The average champ salary was £720k p.a. Last season and I bet we weren’t too far off that.  Your 0.6 might be closer to the truth for us.  Will be interesting to see next years accounts.

2 hours ago, Fontaineofallknowledge said:

Thanks for this, didn't know that about taking the mean of ffp losses for those two years so that's reassuring!

 

fevs can you please share your workings on how we've knocked £12m off the cost base this year please, I'm really struggling to get there once you reflect the new signings made?

 

thanks

Basically, we’ve wiped £4-5m off of our amortisation costs because we let loads of players go OOC in the summer.  The likes of Diedhiou was costing us £1.325m p.a. In amortisation, let alone wages.  Baker was £0.875m (re-signed on a free, so £0 amortisation).  Add in your Jack Hunt, Haks Adelakun, Liam Walsh etc, and it starts to mount up.  Then add on top the wages we are no longer paying.  Nige was quoted as say 30% cut in wages.

Its obviously not an exact science because I’m not party to the exact numbers….but my current xls has assets at £36.150m.  The accounts have £36.167m….I’ll take being £0.017m out!

As per reply to Ole above, wages is always a bit more difficult to estimate.

If we can get Kalas to sign a new contract, we can spread his amortisation out over a longer period.  He’s costing us £2.0m p.a at the mo plus £1.25m in wages!

1 hour ago, BigAl&Toby said:

Compare that to the way he must’ve seemingly developed HL. From getting excited over spreadsheets and investments in his bedroom to a shiny glass office where there were once railway sidings.

Are you saying I could become a billionaire

[BigAl&Toby]

4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

In City’s case, I agree, it looks a bit high….but useful as a consistent method for ballpark comparison across the division at least.

I usually err on the low side for wages in my xls, but with things like appearance and win bonuses, who knows what they might earn.  Ok, we aren’t paying out much in win bonuses, but perhaps our players are / were on a bit more than we think.  The average champ salary was £720k p.a. Last season and I bet we weren’t too far off that.  Your 0.6 might be closer to the truth for us.  Will be interesting to see next years accounts.

Basically, we’ve wiped £4-5m off of our amortisation costs because we let loads of players go OOC in the summer.  The likes of Diedhiou was costing us £1.325m p.a. In amortisation, let alone wages.  Baker was £0.875m (re-signed on a free, so £0 amortisation).  Add in your Jack Hunt, Haks Adelakun, Liam Walsh etc, and it starts to mount up.  Then add on top the wages we are no longer paying.  Nige was quoted as say 30% cut in wages.

Its obviously not an exact science because I’m not party to the exact numbers….but my current xls has assets at £36.150m.  The accounts have £36.167m….I’ll take being £0.017m out!

As per reply to Ole above, wages is always a bit more difficult to estimate.

If we can get Kalas to sign a new contract, we can spread his amortisation out over a longer period.  He’s costing us £2.0m p.a at the mo plus £1.25m in wages!

Are you saying I could become a billionaire

Anyone with a non-contributory final salary pension will have done ok

I’m dipping in shortly. 

Thing is I’m not letting Steve anywhere near it thank you very much. He already gets £60 too much of my hard earned pennies…..

[Port Said Red]

4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 

Are you saying I could become a billionaire

Judging by some of the keyboard warrior comments on this thread yes, it's easy. It's just that they would rather give someone who has actually done it, the benefit of their hindsight on how he should have spent it.

[Fordy62]

1 minute ago, Port Said Red said:

Judging by some of the keyboard warrior comments on this thread yes, it's easy. It's just that they would rather give someone who has actually done it, the benefit of their hindsight on how he should have spent it.

Don’t mix business with pleasure is all I’d have to say. But I think he probably knows that by now. 

[The Humble Realist]

1 hour ago, Olé said:

To be fair it simply says he was appointed on an interim basis in July which is true (prior to the end of the season), it then says he was appointed permanently in August. The directors report is just a summary of key activities that affect the business. The only contention is that we describe Downing and Simpson joining in July under his interim management (not true) and continuing when he was appointed permanently. I don't believe there is anything to be achieved by this so I am putting it down to the author having a poor memory of events.

Oh I see. I thought from what I read on the forum it said holden was only ever an interim manager. 

 

That's my bad, thanks for clearing up.

[Lrrr]

4 hours ago, billywedlock said:

I don't disagree on some points, but this is about a billionaire owner who could have spent more on the one part of the club that is showing success and is outside of FFP. That we could have soaked up the southwest as the only viable Cat 1 academy is more lamentable. If you are looking for performance advantage , have the funds, can only invest outside of FFP in these areas, why avoid it ? The increased scouting network, increased coaching hours and care for young players, in a context when we can afford it , makes it a no brainer for me. In the context of not being able to afford it, like Swansea, who have dropped to Cat 2 yes. But in light of the stated aims of our owner, I cannot comprehend why we are not a Cat 1 with regional development centres throughout the Southwest and why we only got a training ground 12 months ago. I do agree about the under 23's being of marginal use, if players have the ability , they need to be playing in our first tea. Rangernick did a great conference earlier this year on how he competed against the mighty teams in Germany and taking a L3 level club to the top. Essentially youth development and buying players in their first pro contract, max second and having many under 23's in the first team. When we have has success , and we have with youth development and signing players that are youthful and hungry, we have continually repeated the old error of buying at high cost players who we know will never be Prem players on contracts that are expensive and have little or no potential upside. So for me, as the owner is sustaining costs of close on 40 M a year, I do not accept we should not and have not invested the additional sums over the existing Cat 2 costs to run a cat 1 academy. We also have heard of a number (small) of Bristol based youth that have not joined or left our academy as it is not a cat 1. We can afford it, we choose not to afford it, (instead choose to waste money on expensive vanity signings), and when we can see it is the one single side of the club that is demonstrating football success that remains a mystery and frustration to me. 

 

There's no reason we can't soak up the south west as Cat 2, the nearest = or higher category academies are Cardiff, Birmingham, Southampton, Reading. That leaves the entire of the south west for City as the highest ranking academy.

Frankly that's a shit attitude on behalf of the kids/parents then, the same coaches will work with the kids whether its Cat 1 or 2, City's standards would be no higher or less being Cat 1 or 2 in how they approach what they do. 

[Bristol Rob]

8 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

There's no reason we can't soak up the south west as Cat 2, the nearest = or higher category academies are Cardiff, Birmingham, Southampton, Reading. That leaves the entire of the south west for City as the highest ranking academy.

Frankly that's a shit attitude on behalf of the kids/parents then, the same coaches will work with the kids whether its Cat 1 or 2, City's standards would be no higher or less being Cat 1 or 2 in how they approach what they do. 

We could enter the Pappa John's and then play the Fewers with our under 7s.

[O'Garlandinho]

Look at the graphs below. MA joined as COO/CEO at the start of 2016....

[Cowshed]

13 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

There's no reason we can't soak up the south west as Cat 2, the nearest = or higher category academies are Cardiff, Birmingham, Southampton, Reading. That leaves the entire of the south west for City as the highest ranking academy.

Frankly that's a shit attitude on behalf of the kids/parents then, the same coaches will work with the kids whether its Cat 1 or 2, City's standards would be no higher or less being Cat 1 or 2 in how they approach what they do. 

A reason is regional coverage. Other clubs coach more kids and have more coaches and scouts. Exeter have a regional network of development centres. Bristol City  have/had two. Exeter have a broader contact with more talent.

Cat 1 v 2 can be an argument of what the club provides. Parents heads can be swayed and reasonably so by a club offering private schooling - Southampton as a cat 1 academy do this BCFC do not.

However cat 1v 2 v 3 also can mean extra coaching 1 -1 hours. Its part of the criteria, it does not have to be set in stone. A cat 3 academy can provide the same 1-1 coaching.

The posters main point about soaking up the South West is valid. Bristol City is not doing this because it needs to sharpen up its act to do so. Its coverage, involvement and contact with grass roots football and talent outside of Bristol is sparse.

Edited December 29, 2021 by Cowshed

[The Bard]

On 28/12/2021 at 10:30, GrahamC said:

They did, this is wrong, Jamie Mac was still in post until Holden got the role permanently.

Eyewatering numbers & almost certainly ends the likelihood of any money being spent in January even if we sell one or two.

Why the **** Gregor suggested Dwight Gayle as a signing this week I have absolutely no idea, he might as well say Mo Salah.

Because he's  desperately seeking attention?

[Bristol Rob]

So when do other clubs show their hand and reveal just how covid impacted they are?

It will be interesting to compare our performance against them.

[Jeez]

Worth sharing these accounts and wage bill rise with our delusional Suffolk friends.

Ashton as CEO would have been reviewing the BCFC Management Accounts on a monthly basis - wage bill accelerates from his arrival onward.

[Alessandro]

14 minutes ago, Red Alert said:

Worth sharing these accounts and wage bill rise with our delusional Suffolk friends.

Ashton as CEO would have been reviewing the BCFC Management Accounts on a monthly basis - wage bill accelerates from his arrival onward.

Well it's in clear numbers why City fans are so bitter about Ashton:

These charts rocket the year after he joins us, 2016.

Now to be fair, i'm not laying all the blame on Ashton (LJ and JL/SL hugely culpable) but....he was in charge of the budgets. He was in charge of the recruitment.

He pushed us to the financial limit with no contingency plan. As i've said already, traded quality for quantity. (Why???!!!)

Then he left us with a squad with probably our highest wage bill ever, over 100% of any commercial revenue he may have generated.

And most frustratingly nothing to show from it with arguably our weakest, least valuable, least competitive squad footballing wise since we returned to the championship. (Only the academy giving real value player/transfer profit wise)

Beware Ipswich, nothing against you, and I don't wish you any ill, but beware.

Edited December 29, 2021 by Alessandro

[Ivorguy]

Our model has clearly failed, yet no one is held accountable because there is no accountability in this club or mechanisms to achieve it.

We have simply been badly run from top to bottom, but accountability must begin at the top

Old beef of mine -we need an independent full audit of the club’s management

[Harry]

Apologies if this has been broken down elsewhere already but can we have a breakdown of exactly where we currently sit on FFP. 
 

From what I can see, the reported profit/loss over the last few years are :

2016 : £12.2m loss. 
2017 : £2.1m loss. 
2018 : £20.6m loss. 
2019 : £11m profit. 
2020 : £10.1m loss. 
2021 : £38.4m loss. 
 

Over each 3 year rolling period you can lose up to £39m. 
So for 16,17,18 we combined losses of £34.9m. So we were inside. 
For 17,18,19 we had combined losses of £11.7m. So we were well inside.  
For 18,19,20 we had combined losses of £19.7m. So again comfortably inside.

As far as I can tell, the next reporting period is  different due to covid. They are taking the 20 & 21 periods and averaging them into 1. So this is an average of £24.2m. 
 

So, the current reporting period of 18,19,20,21 has us at combined losses of £33.8m. So we are currently £5m inside. 
 

Next year, we’ll have the 19,20,21,22 period so are currently on £37.5m losses. Meaning we can only afford a loss in the coming year of £1.5m or we’re over the limit. 
 

Would that be correct?? 
 

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, O'Garlandinho said:

Look at the graphs below. MA joined as COO/CEO at the start of 2016....

A perfect example of correlation AND causation!!!

1 hour ago, Bristol Rob said:

So when do other clubs show their hand and reveal just how covid impacted they are?

It will be interesting to compare our performance against them.

They will start rolling in between now and end of Feb (for clubs with end of May year ends) and March (June year ends etc.

30 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

Well it's in clear numbers why City fans are so bitter about Ashton:

These charts rocket the year after he joins us, 2016.

Now to be fair, i'm not laying all the blame on Ashton (LJ and JL/SL hugely culpable) but....he was in charge of the budgets. He was in charge of the recruitment.

He pushed us to the financial limit with no contingency plan. As i've said already, traded quality for quantity. (Why???!!!)

Then he left us with a squad with probably our highest wage bill ever, over 100% of any commercial revenue he may have generated.

And most frustratingly nothing to show from it with arguably our weakest, least valuable, least competitive squad footballing wise since we returned to the championship. (Only the academy giving real value player/transfer profit wise)

Beware Ipswich, nothing against you, and I don't wish you any ill, but beware.

How many times have I said, how different are we to Rovers, when the £1m striker sales ran-out?  Stewart, Taylor, Hayles, Ellington, Roberts, Cureton, Lambert.  Albeit a different level, but similar principles.

Ashton’s ego pushed and pushed the limits, SL’s acknowledged position of financial / FFP compliance stopping him from destroying us, but his lack of football knowledge unable to remedy it.  It’s why I give an experienced man like Pearson a lot of slack…he’s helping rebuild a lot more than just a first team.  Gould will play the CEO, not the DoF / HoR.  Decisions will not be based on flashiness, egos and bullsh1t.  I am confident we are gonna morph into being well-run, rather than well-funded / propped up.  But it will take time.

19 minutes ago, Ivorguy said:

Our model has clearly failed, yet no one is held accountable because there is no accountability in this club or mechanisms to achieve it.

We have simply been badly run from top to bottom, but accountability must begin at the top

Old beef of mine -we need an independent full audit of the club’s management

Agree.

[archie andrews]

7 minutes ago, Harry said:

Apologies if this has been broken down elsewhere already but can we have a breakdown of exactly where we currently sit on FFP. 
 

From what I can see, the reported profit/loss over the last few years are :

2016 : £12.2m loss. 
2017 : £2.1m loss. 
2018 : £20.6m loss. 
2019 : £11m profit. 
2020 : £10.1m loss. 
2021 : £38.4m loss. 
 

Over each 3 year rolling period you can lose up to £39m. 
So for 16,17,18 we combined losses of £34.9m. So we were inside. 
For 17,18,19 we had combined losses of £11.7m. So we were well inside.  
For 18,19,20 we had combined losses of £19.7m. So again comfortably inside.

As far as I can tell, the next reporting period is  different due to covid. They are taking the 20 & 21 periods and averaging them into 1. So this is an average of £24.2m. 
 

So, the current reporting period of 18,19,20,21 has us at combined losses of £33.8m. So we are currently £5m inside. 
 

Next year, we’ll have the 19,20,21,22 period so are currently on £37.5m losses. Meaning we can only afford a loss in the coming year of £1.5m or we’re over the limit. 
 

Would that be correct?? 
 

how does a 3 year rolling period become 4 H? 

[Hxj]

16 minutes ago, Harry said:

Would that be correct?? 

Sort of.

There was no test for 2020, it was rolled into the test for 2021.

Your profit/loss figures for each year need adjusting for the allowable costs, mainly the Academy and Depreciation on fixed Assets for all years (say £5million a year).

Secondly Covid losses are ignored as well, these are 'reductions in income and increases in costs' for 2020 and 2021, probably £8 million a year.

That gives you a possible figure for 2022 of

2019 adjusted +16 million

2020 adjusted +3 million

2021 adjusted - 26 million Average 2020 + 2021 -11 million

2022 available - £45 million (39+16-10) - best guess - 25 million

However 2023 is then a problem - 

2020 +2021 average -11 million

2022 - 25 million

2023 max adjusted loss £3 million  (39-11-25)

 

Edited December 29, 2021 by Hxj

[View from the Dolman]

38 minutes ago, Ivorguy said:

Our model has clearly failed, yet no one is held accountable because there is no accountability in this club or mechanisms to achieve it.

We have simply been badly run from top to bottom, but accountability must begin at the top

Old beef of mine -we need an independent full audit of the club’s management

An audit to measure against what? You mention this "audit" process before but it's never entirely clear what you're looking for - maybe I'm unaware of the Ivorguy 7971 certification?

[archie andrews]

9 minutes ago, archie andrews said:

how does a 3 year rolling period become 4 H? 

ahhh...see now H...

[Davefevs]

20 minutes ago, Harry said:

Apologies if this has been broken down elsewhere already but can we have a breakdown of exactly where we currently sit on FFP. 
 

From what I can see, the reported profit/loss over the last few years are :

2016 : £12.2m loss. 
2017 : £2.1m loss. 
2018 : £20.6m loss. 
2019 : £11m profit. 
2020 : £10.1m loss. 
2021 : £38.4m loss. 
 

Over each 3 year rolling period you can lose up to £39m. 
So for 16,17,18 we combined losses of £34.9m. So we were inside. 
For 17,18,19 we had combined losses of £11.7m. So we were well inside.  
For 18,19,20 we had combined losses of £19.7m. So again comfortably inside.

As far as I can tell, the next reporting period is  different due to covid. They are taking the 20 & 21 periods and averaging them into 1. So this is an average of £24.2m. 
 

So, the current reporting period of 18,19,20,21 has us at combined losses of £33.8m. So we are currently £5m inside. 
 

Next year, we’ll have the 19,20,21,22 period so are currently on £37.5m losses. Meaning we can only afford a loss in the coming year of £1.5m or we’re over the limit. 
 

Would that be correct?? 
 

It’s complicated by the covid concessions of combining and halving 19/20 and 20/21s losses to make a 4 year cycle look like a 3 year cycle (if that makes sense).

It kinda looks a bit like this (others chip in if they disagree). The yellow highlighted but are where the losses are halved.  I’ve taken a very simplistic £25m revenue / £45m costs over the 3 estimated years.

What I’ve yet to factor in is how much is allowable for Covid.  If it’s £14m, then our £38.4m loss becomes £24.4m and halved is £12.2m (saving us £7m of our £19.2m).  That puts 22/23 season down from £54.8m to £47.8m…over the £39m.  However, that’s based on current amortisation and wage levels, which I expect to come down, as well as I expect us to increase revenues beyond my estimates.

So all in all I think we will be ok.  A few million in add-ons for Brownhill and / or Kelly wouldn’t go amiss.

We’ve acted just in time imho.

Fire any Qs back.

(I use a £3m p.a. FFP allowables for things like Academy, Women’s etc, hence £9m in penultimate column)

 

Edited December 29, 2021 by Davefevs

[One Team]

16 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

A perfect example of correlation AND causation!!!

They will start rolling in between now and end of Feb (for clubs with end of May year ends) and March (June year ends etc.

How many times have I said, how different are we to Rovers, when the £1m striker sales ran-out?  Stewart, Taylor, Hayles, Ellington, Roberts, Cureton, Lambert.  Albeit a different level, but similar principles.

Ashton’s ego pushed and pushed the limits, SL’s acknowledged position of financial / FFP compliance stopping him from destroying us, but his lack of football knowledge unable to remedy it.  It’s why I give an experienced man like Pearson a lot of slack…he’s helping rebuild a lot more than just a first team.  Gould will play the CEO, not the DoF / HoR.  Decisions will not be based on flashiness, egos and bullsh1t.  I am confident we are gonna morph into being well-run, rather than well-funded / propped up.  But it will take time.

Agree.

Much more of this @Davefevs and I will be standing and applauding your posts! 

Absolutely nailed it there!

Edited December 29, 2021 by One Team

[BasSavage88]

Still nothing from our invisible chairman? Has daddy not made him come back from wherever he's hiding yet?