City release accounts - Ouch!

[Mr Popodopolous]

Some views on our accounts on the Derby forum FFP wise I would be interested to see are those of in particular Ghost of Clough but a few others who seem to have a financial background who appear not to have commented.

GoC in particular, I read their posts on finances with some interest. There are a range however, think G Star Ram also a long term auditor, or accountant.

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 minutes ago, Ska Junkie said:

A slightly different question, with a slightly different slant on it.

IF we continue with the current frugality and survive at this level, is there a point that (SL allowing), we could 'go for it'?

I am leaning towards 2023/24 but maybe even 2024/25?

Variables though aren't there. How far can we push our new revenue streams and how far can the existing ones recover, how much can we generate on transfer profits, how low can we get wages, amortisation and other running costs.

[ExiledAjax]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

With @Hxjsuggesting FFP allowances of £6m p.a. (Not £3m) then that’s £9m less to worry about.  Hopefully cost cutting will continue sensibly, and we get income levels back up.  My figures still have covid allowances to take off.

But you’re right 21/22 to 23/24 will be the 3 sets of accounts that have no Covid allowances.  If we haven’t reset by then, we deserve a kicking!!

Get income around £30m, costs around £45m and we will be fine…and not reliant on selling off players out of necessity.  

Is it almost as though Covid has actually given us some breathing room? This 50% thing, plus allowances might have helped us...maybe not as much as having revenue at normal levels for 2019/20 and 2020/21, but possibly its come at a good time to assist us in having that reset you allude to?

Have to say if the £6m FFP allowance is correct then that is pretty big. Looking at your earlier table it takes us down to potentially (pre-covid allowance) breaking the £39m by just £3-4m rather than £12-13m. Much easier to correct that smaller sum with a couple of player transfers and the odd extra revenue stream.

[funky monkey]

On 28/12/2021 at 12:05, frenchred said:

Why would we be gone without him? Please explain.

A lot of the losses are down to his mistakes and bad football decisions as they are every year 

Running a club outside of the prem requires a financial backer. You can’t say we’d be gone but we’d definitely not have the facilities and the transfer market presence we’ve had. Regardless of how well we’ve used it. Our club still has its goals and I bet there’s more to the story than the report suggests. Sl ain’t daft and financesis his game.

at the end of the day our club is a much more sellable asset even with the loses compared to pre lansdown.

worse case we get a points deduction in a few years. 

As long as sl backs us we ain’t going bust which is the crucial thing. We don’t and most definitely didn’t pre facilities upgrade make enough dosh to compete. Your only hope is lucking the prem on shoestring which is slim 
 

[funky monkey]

Surely there will also be COVID allowances for future accounts? This crap hasn’t ended yet

[Monkeh]

1 hour ago, funky monkey said:

Surely there will also be COVID allowances for future accounts? This crap hasn’t ended yet

Allowances ended as soon as lockdown was lifted and stadiums could open in full

[fgrsimon]

I think the Derby supporters are not aware of quite how rich SL is (£1.36 Billion according to the Sunday Times). These accounts are dreadful but it's still pocket money to him and his family. The only way we go into Administration is if he (and Maggie, Jon and whoever else might be his beneficiaries) walk away. As he's no longer involved in HL he isn't going to suddenly lose his business and thus his wealth. It's not like say Dale Vince at FGR, all his wealth is in Ecotricity and if they go bust (which has to be possible in the current scenario) then he and FGR are screwed.  I may be wrong but I'm pretty confident the Lansdown family will never walk away and leave the club in danger, it's not something that would keep me awake at night.

Our issue is purely FFP.

One thing I was thinking (and obviously Covid is still a big BUT), could we not ramp up the concerts/events at Ashton Gate over the next few years? There is going to be a big backlog of bands going on tour again once Covid is sorted. Should be possible to maybe fit 7 or 8 shows or more into one summer, particularly if it's a run of shows by the same artist. These would be massive money-spinners given the cost of tickets for big acts these days..

 

 

 

[Lrrr]

Seems they still haven't grasped the concept we haven't broken the FFP 3 year losses 

https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/38883-will-we-have-pandemic-of-ffp-deductions/

[Waconda]

22 hours ago, Lrrr said:

We agree deals with the club rather than use EPPP to just pay compensation though it’s not the same Owura Edwards, Hinds, Bakinson we agreed deals with their clubs vs Maddox, Kane and Wade being taken via compensation is different 

We do take players from other Academies though, is the main point I was making.

[Pezo]

6 hours ago, fgrsimon said:

I think the Derby supporters are not aware of quite how rich SL is (£1.36 Billion according to the Sunday Times). These accounts are dreadful but it's still pocket money to him and his family. The only way we go into Administration is if he (and Maggie, Jon and whoever else might be his beneficiaries) walk away. As he's no longer involved in HL he isn't going to suddenly lose his business and thus his wealth. It's not like say Dale Vince at FGR, all his wealth is in Ecotricity and if they go bust (which has to be possible in the current scenario) then he and FGR are screwed.  I may be wrong but I'm pretty confident the Lansdown family will never walk away and leave the club in danger, it's not something that would keep me awake at night.

Our issue is purely FFP.

One thing I was thinking (and obviously Covid is still a big BUT), could we not ramp up the concerts/events at Ashton Gate over the next few years? There is going to be a big backlog of bands going on tour again once Covid is sorted. Should be possible to maybe fit 7 or 8 shows or more into one summer, particularly if it's a run of shows by the same artist. These would be massive money-spinners given the cost of tickets for big acts these days..

You have to remember that SL wealth is tied up (and it is mainly tied up in HL) so it's not pocket money - it's selling assets (of which he has loads) to fund a loss making venture.  While he is diversified HL makes up a large majority of his wealth it is his shares in HL that he sells to fund City so while he has plenty if something happened to HL he would have to find an alternative income source to fund City, can't see that happening though and you're right he won't walk away he is looking for investment - but the question will always be your a billionaire why not invest yourself.

Not sure on events and concerts, I could be wrong but fairly sure someone said a while ago they barely break even and are a massive distraction for the money made.

[Bristol Oil Services]

Reading all this, it strikes me that Nige is one of them adrenalin-junkies and has merely replaced the literal thrill of his backs-to-the-wall Carpathian mountain surrounded by wild dogs experience with the closest thing football has to offer: trying to keep dopey pandemic-and-dopey-owner-ravaged Bristol City afloat in the Championship.

Nige walked into/towards the adversity that is Bristol City FC, while the bloke with the "Run Towards Adversity" poster on his office wall ran away to Suffolk. 

I suppose Ashton told him the truth of the muddle here when Nige was first approached?

[Antman]

6 hours ago, fgrsimon said:

One thing I was thinking (and obviously Covid is still a big BUT), could we not ramp up the concerts/events at Ashton Gate over the next few years? There is going to be a big backlog of bands going on tour again once Covid is sorted. Should be possible to maybe fit 7 or 8 shows or more into one summer, particularly if it's a run of shows by the same artist. These would be massive money-spinners given the cost of tickets for big acts these days..

 

 

 

Given how Omicron emerged and spread and the shambolic response to that, i think it unlikely that we shall see the back of thie COVID situation for some time. thats a straw not worth clutching at. IMO

 

( Can someone point me at the Brentford comparison on here please? - page/poster -  this thread is a behemoth now!!)

[Lrrr]

29 minutes ago, VT05763 said:

We do take players from other Academies though, is the main point I was making.

Yes but we do it by agreeing a fee with clubs rather than 'pinching' the player by just paying the compensation through EPPP so it makes no difference what category our academy is in that regard.

[Waconda]

1 minute ago, Lrrr said:

Yes but we do it by agreeing a fee with clubs rather than 'pinching' the player by just paying the compensation through EPPP so it makes no difference what category our academy is in that regard.

Nope it doesn't.

Just making clear that we do take players from other Academies and have been very successful in doing so.

Wouldn't want there to be an impression that we don't actively recruit players from other clubs.

 

[Phileas Fogg]

25 minutes ago, Antman said:

Given how Omicron emerged and spread and the shambolic response to that, i think it unlikely that we shall see the back of thie COVID situation for some time. thats a straw not worth clutching at. IMO

 

( Can someone point me at the Brentford comparison on here please? - page/poster -  this thread is a behemoth now!!)

Without wanting to turn this into a covid thread - there's a certain element of karma to rich countries hoovering up vaccine supply at the expense of other nations which then allows variants to develop and circulate.. which then become vaccine resistant. Greed doesn't pay. 

[ChrisAllen80]

Don't think this has been posted already. Good analysis here:

 

Puts it in perspective and perhaps not as terrifying as the headline figure suggests.

[Davefevs]

17 minutes ago, ChrisAllen80 said:

Don't think this has been posted already. Good analysis here:

 

Puts it in perspective and perhaps not as terrifying as the headline figure suggests.

You beat me to it.

Some really useful stuff in here….as always.  Swiss and Kieran are the go-to twitter accounts re football finance.

I thought this was interesting, their estimate of covid allowances £3 and £15m.

[The Bard]

Was going to ask if we're one of the first to publish our accounts?

If so, I think that's a sound strategy. Lay the facts out and stand back and see how our rivals compare.  Emphasise that we're working with the EFL to stay within the limits etc.  

 

Completely different look to the litigious approach of Derby for example. 

[22A]

Looking at the QPR Forum, some of their fans think City are in for a points deduction; https://www.fansnetwork.co.uk/football/queensparkrangers/forum/280396/bristol-city-(bang-in-trouble)/#32

[Fordy62]

3 minutes ago, 22A said:

Looking at the QPR Forum, some of their fans think City are in for a points deduction; https://www.fansnetwork.co.uk/football/queensparkrangers/forum/280396/bristol-city-(bang-in-trouble)/#32

Swiss Ramble seems to think otherwise. I’ll go with him. 

[HappyClapper]

22 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

You beat me to it.

Some really useful stuff in here….as always.  Swiss and Kieran are the go-to twitter accounts re football finance.

I thought this was interesting, their estimate of covid allowances £3 and £15m.

 

5 minutes ago, 22A said:

Looking at the QPR Forum, some of their fans think City are in for a points deduction; https://www.fansnetwork.co.uk/football/queensparkrangers/forum/280396/bristol-city-(bang-in-trouble)/#32

Lot’s of financial illiteracy around the football world myself included. For those of us with absolutely no experience of reading/understanding balance sheets could one of the enlightened posters please correct me? Looking at the data from Swiss ramble due to potential Covid allowances etc our FFP position actually looks relatively healthy. A rolling 3 year figure of £4M against an allowable allowance of £39M.

Doesn’t seem correct. Have I completely misunderstood the analysis? I suspect the answer to that is yes.

 

[The Bard]

7 minutes ago, 22A said:

Looking at the QPR Forum, some of their fans think City are in for a points deduction; https://www.fansnetwork.co.uk/football/queensparkrangers/forum/280396/bristol-city-(bang-in-trouble)/#32

They do realise they have yet to publish their accounts?

Loss of £16 million last year that was predicted to worsen this.

[frenchred]

9 hours ago, funky monkey said:

Running a club outside of the prem requires a financial backer. You can’t say we’d be gone but we’d definitely not have the facilities and the transfer market presence we’ve had. Regardless of how well we’ve used it. Our club still has its goals and I bet there’s more to the story than the report suggests. Sl ain’t daft and financesis his game.

at the end of the day our club is a much more sellable asset even with the loses compared to pre lansdown.

worse case we get a points deduction in a few years. 

As long as sl backs us we ain’t going bust which is the crucial thing. We don’t and most definitely didn’t pre facilities upgrade make enough dosh to compete. Your only hope is lucking the prem on shoestring which is slim 
 

I agree with some bits but others are wide of the mark in my opinion

Championship clubs probably do need a backer, I will give you that

I don't want to get embroiled in the flashy facilities because we don't own them

Transfer market presence? Don't make me laugh!

Finance is his game, football ain't and he is daft when it comes to football!

Our club is not saleable now, and won't be while he continues his football folly

Any points deduction whenever would be a disaster for us

 

Edited December 30, 2021 by frenchred

[Antman]

35 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

Swiss Ramble seems to think otherwise. I’ll go with him. 

i would agree, but given the febrile nature of news and information in this day and age, i suspect we will be cast in the role of villain by other fans of clubs in more trouble than us - and i suspect this is just the start of more revaltions.

it's easier to see the headline numbers without understanding the make up so the hard of thinking get all frothy and irate and just repeat the bit of news that suits their agenda  (some BCFC fans have done just that with Derby et al) .

Assuming we avoid FFP penalties and others don't, then expect to be a bit of a pariah for a while yet.

[spudski]

Does anyone else think the excuse of not being able to compete against teams in this division with parachute payments exaggerated?

Granted some teams like WBA and Fulham seem to do well with it. But there are many others who struggle with parachute payments and even get relegated.

Yes...we may never win the league, but I don't see how, like other teams, you can aim for top 6.

I'd say this league is pretty even by the majority.

So whilst it's great to have the money, you still have to buy and sell wisely, and get players motivated and well drilled/coached.

 

 

[Waconda]

4 minutes ago, spudski said:

Does anyone else think the excuse of not being able to compete against teams in this division with parachute payments exaggerated?

Granted some teams like WBA and Fulham seem to do well with it. But there are many others who struggle with parachute payments and even get relegated.

Yes...we may never win the league, but I don't see how, like other teams, you can aim for top 6.

I'd say this league is pretty even by the majority.

So whilst it's great to have the money, you still have to buy and sell wisely, and get players motivated and well drilled/coached.

 

 

It is an excuse on the whole.

Top quality coaching and man management, getting more out of a team than the sum of it's parts are far more important.

"Hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard"

[Hxj]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

I thought this was interesting, their estimate of covid allowances £3 and £15m.

The adjusted FFP figure is wrong.  Takes no account of the four year period and the averaging.

[Fordy62]

6 minutes ago, spudski said:

Does anyone else think the excuse of not being able to compete against teams in this division with parachute payments exaggerated?

Granted some teams like WBA and Fulham seem to do well with it. But there are many others who struggle with parachute payments and even get relegated.

Yes...we may never win the league, but I don't see how, like other teams, you can aim for top 6.

I'd say this league is pretty even by the majority.

So whilst it's great to have the money, you still have to buy and sell wisely, and get players motivated and well drilled/coached.

 

 

I get your point, but it is much easier with the money than without. It doesn’t guarantee things, but when the purse strings aren’t so tight it isn’t as hard. 

And therefore aiming for top six when essentially two of the top six are already taken, you’re now only aiming for four spots, not 6. 

[Maltshoveller]

Nothing to do with City 

Chelsea announce annual losses of £145 million!!!!!!!

The one thing us and Chelsea have in common? Players paid way more than what they are worth and what the clubs can afford 

One day clubs will show some balls and say no more

[Waconda]

Surely there will be a COVID write off for all clubs in relation to FFP ?

There was literally no income for the clubs for a large chunk of last season ?