IAmNick Posted February 2, 2022 Report Share Posted February 2, 2022 Random question a few in here might know - how does the income from the stadium for non football events work exactly? If we host a concert, does that money count as income for the club and help us for FFP? Where's the line - someone mentioned money from covid jabs above. Could you, in theory, turn some of the stadium into offices, move half of Hargreaves Lansdown there, and make untold billions each year effectively ignoring FFP forever? Surely not, but what are the actual rules? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numero Uno Posted February 2, 2022 Report Share Posted February 2, 2022 6 minutes ago, IAmNick said: Random question a few in here might know - how does the income from the stadium for non football events work exactly? If we host a concert, does that money count as income for the club and help us for FFP? Where's the line - someone mentioned money from covid jabs above. Could you, in theory, turn some of the stadium into offices, move half of Hargreaves Lansdown there, and make untold billions each year effectively ignoring FFP forever? Surely not, but what are the actual rules? Perhaps I'm being stupid here but we don't own the stadium do we? We pay rent to Steve Lansdown effectively to use it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bristol Rob Posted February 2, 2022 Report Share Posted February 2, 2022 Just now, Numero Uno said: Perhaps I'm being stupid here but we don't own the stadium do we? We pay rent to Steve Lansdown effectively to use it? And I thought (probably incorrectly) that SL hadn't worked for HL in years and now owns less than 10% of the company. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IAmNick Posted February 2, 2022 Report Share Posted February 2, 2022 2 minutes ago, Numero Uno said: Perhaps I'm being stupid here but we don't own the stadium do we? We pay rent to Steve Lansdown effectively to use it? Yes, I think it's a separate company who own it and we rent it - but I was under the impression things like concerts helped our FFP? Maybe not. 1 minute ago, Bristol Rob said: And I thought (probably incorrectly) that SL hadn't worked for HL in years and now owns less than 10% of the company. Yeah it was just an example of how far could you push the "stadium use" thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted February 2, 2022 Report Share Posted February 2, 2022 3 minutes ago, Numero Uno said: Perhaps I'm being stupid here but we don't own the stadium do we? We pay rent to Steve Lansdown effectively to use it? Ashton gate ltd own the stadium which is part of the Bristol city holdings group there for the stadium reven shows up in our accounts as does the following Bristol city football club Ltd Ashton gate Ltd BCFC ltd St James parade Ltd Bristol city women's football club Ltd Bristol academy women's football club ltd (now dormant) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numero Uno Posted February 2, 2022 Report Share Posted February 2, 2022 Just now, Monkeh said: Ashton gate ltd own the stadium which is part of the Bristol city holdings group there for the stadium reven shows up in our accounts as does the following Bristol city football club Ltd Ashton gate Ltd BCFC ltd St James parade Ltd Bristol city women's football club Ltd Bristol academy women's football club ltd (now dormant) Do all of the above appear in the accounts that the EFL examine? For example what has St James Parade Limited or the Women's FC got to do with our FFP? I genuinely don't know the answer hence asking the question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IAmNick Posted February 2, 2022 Report Share Posted February 2, 2022 28 minutes ago, Numero Uno said: Do all of the above appear in the accounts that the EFL examine? For example what has St James Parade Limited or the Women's FC got to do with our FFP? I genuinely don't know the answer hence asking the question. I guess that's the bit I'm not sure on either. When people say the stadium income helps us, is that just because it can contribute to our £11m loss / year, or does it directly impact FFP? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted February 2, 2022 Report Share Posted February 2, 2022 22 minutes ago, IAmNick said: I guess that's the bit I'm not sure on either. When people say the stadium income helps us, is that just because it can contribute to our £11m loss / year, or does it directly impact FFP? I think the audit the holding companies accounts, Remember when Southampton went into administration, Their holding company went into admin not the football club, in order to try and avoid punishment, Plus it would explain the massive number of staff 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hxj Posted February 2, 2022 Report Share Posted February 2, 2022 49 minutes ago, Numero Uno said: For example what has St James Parade Limited or the Women's FC got to do with our FFP? The group headed by BCHL is used for FFP purposes. So all income and losses of the companies within the group are taken into account when arriving at the loss before FFP adjustments. St James Parade Limited is a now dissolved company that held some land. So no impact on FFP as no costs. However if it was a company that was not directly related to football activities then its results would be excluded from the FFP calculation. The £500,000 or so losses incurred by BCWFCL are specifically excluded from the FFP calculation. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hxj Posted February 2, 2022 Report Share Posted February 2, 2022 (edited) 42 minutes ago, IAmNick said: I guess that's the bit I'm not sure on either. When people say the stadium income helps us, is that just because it can contribute to our £11m loss / year, or does it directly impact FFP? As the stadium is clearly connected to 'Football' then any profits or losses made by Ashton Gate Limited (the stadium owning company) are included within the FFP calculation. So in 2019 that company lost £1.5 million, after adjustments for tax and depreciation (both adjusted out for FFP purposes) the profit was about £0.5 million. Which improved the football club's financial position. Bear in mind that there are significant fixed costs so a relatively small increase in event/hospitality income has disproportionate impact on profits. Edited February 2, 2022 by Hxj 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sh1t_ref_again Posted February 2, 2022 Report Share Posted February 2, 2022 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Hxj said: As the stadium is clearly connected to 'Football' then any profits or losses made by Ashton Gate Limited (the stadium owning company) are included within the FFP calculation. So in 2019 that company lost £1.5 million, after adjustments for tax and depreciation (both adjusted out for FFP purposes) the profit was about £0.7 million. Which improved the football club's financial position. Bear in mind that there are significant fixed costs so a relatively small increase in event/hospitality income has disproportionate impact on profits. So I assume then having the bears games (guess rent) goes back into Ashton Gate Ltd and therefore helps our FFP? Edited February 2, 2022 by sh1t_ref_again Detail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hxj Posted February 2, 2022 Report Share Posted February 2, 2022 Just now, sh1t_ref_again said: So I assume then having the bears games goes back into Ashton Gate Ltd and therefore helps our FFP? Exactly. Rental income paid by The Bears, a big chunk of ticket, food and beer spend, less the amount paid to The Bears. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sh1t_ref_again Posted February 2, 2022 Report Share Posted February 2, 2022 41 minutes ago, Hxj said: Exactly. Rental income paid by The Bears, a big chunk of ticket, food and beer spend, less the amount paid to The Bears. Interesting, guess a few should consider that whilst moaning about Bristol sport or a few pictures of rugby in the stands 7 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clutton Caveman Posted February 2, 2022 Report Share Posted February 2, 2022 On 13/01/2022 at 18:52, Mr Popodopolous said: Agreed. Here is how I think it might play out FWIW. We submit our Projections in March as usual, and our actual for last season. We will be fine until 2021 and 2022. The problem may well arise when it comes to the Future Financial Information for the period ending in 2023 and 2024.. Once it rolls into the period that ends next season ie: Combined Average- 2019/20 and 2020/21- Actual Accounts- 2021/22- Projection in March, pretty much updated in June/July time. Close to real. The challenge for us then will be to fill the FFP hole that is set to arise in 2022/23 or face a deduction perhaps in Spring 2023. Deduction linked to size of breach, mitigating and aggravating factors etc. I think more than 50% of Championshp clubs will fall foul of FFP rules in this period and so they will be relaxed 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledAjax Posted February 2, 2022 Report Share Posted February 2, 2022 2 hours ago, Numero Uno said: Do all of the above appear in the accounts that the EFL examine? For example what has St James Parade Limited or the Women's FC got to do with our FFP? I genuinely don't know the answer hence asking the question. The mens club owns the women's club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted February 2, 2022 Report Share Posted February 2, 2022 @IAmNick- @Hxjis spot on with his summaries of Bristol City Holdings Ltd, and the companies within that “group”. @Mr Popodopolous- as it currently stands we are miles inside FFP fo the cycle ending 21/22, mainly due to the profit in 18/19, but also the 50% of 19/20 and 20/21. I know you know this. What we don’t know is the level of covid losses allowed, but the EFL Rules look pretty clear…or should do to a Chief Finance Officer and CEO. We know the problem arises for the cycle ending next season, when the 18/19 profit drops off. My estimates for this season are: Income: £26m Costs: £48m Loss: £22m (£17m after allowances removed) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bristol Rob Posted February 2, 2022 Report Share Posted February 2, 2022 As an aside (there are a number or FFP type threads on the go), did Cardiff ever pay for, or account for the 25mil they were due to pay for Sala? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted February 2, 2022 Report Share Posted February 2, 2022 3 minutes ago, Bristol Rob said: As an aside (there are a number or FFP type threads on the go), did Cardiff ever pay for, or account for the 25mil they were due to pay for Sala? There is definitely £15m slug in their accounts….I’ve not seen an impairment to that….but we’ve not seen accounts. I actually looked at this last week. That to me proves he was their player. Whether they’ve paid or not is a different matter. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Port Said Red Posted February 2, 2022 Report Share Posted February 2, 2022 Also will any Covid allowance be on a case by case basis or a standard figure across the board? I would assume the former as each club would have different earning potential from their respective activities? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted February 2, 2022 Report Share Posted February 2, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Bristol Rob said: As an aside (there are a number or FFP type threads on the go), did Cardiff ever pay for, or account for the 25mil they were due to pay for Sala? 1 hour ago, Davefevs said: There is definitely £15m slug in their accounts….I’ve not seen an impairment to that….but we’ve not seen accounts. I actually looked at this last week. That to me proves he was their player. Whether they’ve paid or not is a different matter. Still an ongoing matter IIRC. Nixon said it's to be heard in March at the CAS along with a range of other cases. Payment wise? Seems to be included as a provision in the accounts, with costs etc will be somewhere between £15-20m now I expect. One key bit I'm unsure on and this truly would make a mockery is surely the reversal of provision if they win. I believe that the provision first appeared in 2018/19 accounts so surely should if required be reversed there? If it was 2019/20 then that would bump up their combined average if it was beyond there, it'd give them in effect another year of Parachute Payments!!! What's your take @Hxj Think we've discussed this before but not from a live FFP implications perspective. As an aside, Cardiff themselves possible Sala provision permitting could have notable FFP issues going into 2022/23 ie the period up until then- although the Telegraph didn't mention them in conjunction with a fail. Edited February 2, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted February 2, 2022 Report Share Posted February 2, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, Clutton Caveman said: I think more than 50% of Championshp clubs will fall foul of FFP rules in this period and so they will be relaxed When you say this period do you mean up to 2023? ie the period beginning with the combined average of 2019/20 and 2020/21. If so, I'm not so sure. We have one of the higher running costs at this level, the underlying losses once we strip out transfer profits have been high for a while. We are moving in the right direction absolutely but by my checks I'm not so sure we'll see as many fails as predicted to 2023. Of course there are many unknowables at this stage and we have like all clubs until March 2023 to fix issues if required. Edited February 2, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hxj Posted February 2, 2022 Report Share Posted February 2, 2022 1 hour ago, Davefevs said: That to me proves he was their player. Whether they’ve paid or not is a different matter. A provision was put through the 2020 accounts, but nothing was paid over at 31 May 2020. I'd guess that there is an FFP advantage to putting the cost through the 2020 accounts. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted February 2, 2022 Report Share Posted February 2, 2022 5 minutes ago, Hxj said: A provision was put through the 2020 accounts, but nothing was paid over at 31 May 2020. I'd guess that there is an FFP advantage to putting the cost through the 2020 accounts. I see/saw a £19.5m provision in the accounts to 31st May 2019- could that be the fee/bad debt relating to Sala? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hxj Posted February 2, 2022 Report Share Posted February 2, 2022 2 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: I see/saw a £19.5m provision in the accounts to 31st May 2019- could that be the fee/bad debt relating to Sala? Apologies - it is 2019. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James54De Posted February 2, 2022 Report Share Posted February 2, 2022 5 hours ago, Numero Uno said: Perhaps I'm being stupid here but we don't own the stadium do we? We pay rent to Steve Lansdown effectively to use it? How many time does this have to be covered? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted February 2, 2022 Report Share Posted February 2, 2022 1 minute ago, Hxj said: Apologies - it is 2019. I wasn't sure but thanks for clarifying. If they win their case Cardiff that is, should the provision therefore only be reversed in 2018/19? Anything else would be very much cake and eat it and be an appalling freak advantage given the circumstances surrounding the Sala case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hxj Posted February 2, 2022 Report Share Posted February 2, 2022 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: should the provision therefore only be reversed in 2018/19? Nope. The provision would be reversed in the period in which the case is won. That would be appropriate under Accounting Standards. Edited February 2, 2022 by Hxj 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted February 2, 2022 Report Share Posted February 2, 2022 22 minutes ago, Hxj said: Nope. The provision would be reversed in the period in which the case is won. That would be appropriate under Accounting Standards. God. Thank you, as I half feared then. They win that case in the Spring and it's a boost of £15-20m THIS season off the back of a tragedy. Akin to another year of Parachute Payments financially. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numero Uno Posted February 2, 2022 Report Share Posted February 2, 2022 1 hour ago, James54De said: How many time does this have to be covered? I don't know because I don't have that much interest in detailed accounts most of the time. Hope that's ok arsewipe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numero Uno Posted February 2, 2022 Report Share Posted February 2, 2022 4 hours ago, ExiledAjax said: The mens club owns the women's club. And what we spend on the women's club goes through FFP in terms of the EFL's calculations? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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