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City release accounts - Ouch!


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10 minutes ago, EstoniaTallinnRed said:

Absolutely right AG!  If players can't survive on £2-5000 per week then I suggest they are living well over their means, £25,000 a week for the little time they actually work is quite mental.  I wish I could have got paid that money for working 6 days a week, starting at 0400 and finishing around midnight or later depending on the duty,  early mornings and late nights for 25 years. They probably only work 3 or 4 days training and certainly not 8 or 10 hours a day and at most 2 or 3 games a weeks, they are not superstars, but only average football players, as the results confirm. Football needs a shake up from top to bottom, otherwise it could get unaffordable by the working man who started it all in the first place. Where would these players be then?

Free Market Capitalism Sir.

Awful isn't it ?

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8 hours ago, Port Said Red said:

Bloody Lansdown, why don't 'e put his hand in 'is pocket and buy a striker?.

:facepalm:

Because he foolishly believed in a rookie manager who did not reinvest wisely from the sales of Kodjia, Webster, Reid, Bryan, Kelly etc. assuming he was allowed.

He then brings in a proven manager who do not get substantial funds to invest.

It reminds me of a certain chairman who allowed the sale of Goater to Man City when in pole position for promotion and then bought McCarthy to get us over the line but failed. Should have kept Goater.

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11 minutes ago, City1970 said:

Because he foolishly believed in a rookie manager who did not reinvest wisely from the sales of Kodjia, Webster, Reid, Bryan, Kelly etc. assuming he was allowed.

He then brings in a proven manager who do not get substantial funds to invest.

It reminds me of a certain chairman who allowed the sale of Goater to Man City when in pole position for promotion and then bought McCarthy to get us over the line but failed. Should have kept Goater.

Next time a bigger better company / opportunity comes along offering you an environment and financial uplift which you've dreamed of- just say no because your employer says so.

 

Why is it that fans dont get that players will, pretty much, never ever turn down a better opportunity, bigger club, more money?

 

Why is it that fans dont get that although our beloved club is part of who we are as individuals and we are CTID but that players are not?

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21 minutes ago, City1970 said:

Because he foolishly believed in a rookie manager who did not reinvest wisely from the sales of Kodjia, Webster, Reid, Bryan, Kelly etc. assuming he was allowed.

He then brings in a proven manager who do not get substantial funds to invest.

It reminds me of a certain chairman who allowed the sale of Goater to Man City when in pole position for promotion and then bought McCarthy to get us over the line but failed. Should have kept Goater.

I think you’ll find we did get promoted that season.

Pesky Facts.

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26 minutes ago, billywedlock said:

Of course now having got ourselves in this pickle, and it is bad as many assumed, getting out of it is even harder. We should have been maxing out the areas of non FFP performance investments for years (Academy cat 1) as we will be relying on youth development for many years to come now. Taking players from the Prem reserves looks unlikely when Palmer was on £28k a week at Chelsea (now that shows how far apart these leagues are now). Scouting and recruitment will need to be very clever. The parachute system will now completely destroy the Championship as owners (maybe like our or Stoke) cannot simply try to compete with them with cash inputs. The whole concept of the Championship is flawed, and the Prem with parachute payments and the ability to sign any talents they want with no squad size constraints (youth) makes a mockery of it all. So this is going to be a very tough period for us and many fellow sides and for some fans they have had enough of the nonsense. Not sure how this plays out, certainly not well if the structure of football is not changed. No wonder the idea of a regulator worries the Prem, and so it should. If you look at the Championship, you really can start to question what is the point. 

I’m not sure of the arguments for and against and I bet you and @Lrrrcouod go “hammer and tongs” on the subject, but…

…for me in the current climate we need to maximise getting youngsters through our Academy, whether we nab them from other Academies at the right age, or they come all the way through us.

@Mr Popodopolous Gary Glitter ???

image.thumb.png.daf70e57c52795388b5d97418ddfdce5.png

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28 minutes ago, City1970 said:

 

It reminds me of a certain chairman who allowed the sale of Goater to Man City when in pole position for promotion and then bought McCarthy to get us over the line but failed. Should have kept Goater.

Apart from the fact that we did “get over the line” as we finished second & went up automatically.

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16 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I’m not sure of the arguments for and against and I bet you and @Lrrrcouod go “hammer and tongs” on the subject, but…

…for me in the current climate we need to maximise getting youngsters through our Academy, whether we nab them from other Academies at the right age, or they come all the way through us.

@Mr Popodopolous Gary Glitter ???

image.thumb.png.daf70e57c52795388b5d97418ddfdce5.png

Ha that fool has found his way out of Derby then and appears on another forum- I think I can guess who he is...still those who live in Grimsby have a pretty grim existence. :D

A couple of those Ipswich fans don't get it either- the only real way their strategy succeeds is if they shoot up in Year 1 or 2 IMO- of course if they make good player sales that's different but they might have a year or 2 given the fundamentally different systems but if not...

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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39 minutes ago, billywedlock said:

Of course now having got ourselves in this pickle, and it is bad as many assumed, getting out of it is even harder. We should have been maxing out the areas of non FFP performance investments for years (Academy cat 1) as we will be relying on youth development for many years to come now. Taking players from the Prem reserves looks unlikely when Palmer was on £28k a week at Chelsea (now that shows how far apart these leagues are now). Scouting and recruitment will need to be very clever. The parachute system will now completely destroy the Championship as owners (maybe like our or Stoke) cannot simply try to compete with them with cash inputs. The whole concept of the Championship is flawed, and the Prem with parachute payments and the ability to sign any talents they want with no squad size constraints (youth) makes a mockery of it all. So this is going to be a very tough period for us and many fellow sides and for some fans they have had enough of the nonsense. Not sure how this plays out, certainly not well if the structure of football is not changed. No wonder the idea of a regulator worries the Prem, and so it should. If you look at the Championship, you really can start to question what is the point. 

Maybe the European Superleague wasn’t such a bad idea, let the real moneybags clubs disappear and use it to get football in this country back in a more level footing.

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3 hours ago, Lorenzos Only Goal said:

No I don't think there is anything sinister or crocked in our accounts. 

There are just so many costs through so many layers of companies i expect its litterally operational costs wrapped up as a headline figure.  

I forgot about police costs I wonder if we still got charged for that when the gates were closed? 

Have had a look through and don't think anybody else has picked up on this, so I'll  answer it - maybe.

I work in a school, and when covid hit and started closing things left right and centre, as a school, we were still expected to pay our suppliers, or anybody that had an agreement in place already to provide a service - regardless of the fact that they were unable to provide said service.

Government advice (ha!) was that everyone should be paid as they would be normally, and that the government would reimburse us afterwards, so that we weren't out of pocket.

So, without being able to give a definite yes or no answer, on the same premise I would imagine that we as a club still had to pay for policing costs. That could well be reimbursed though.

So there's your answer. Maybe. Clear as mud really :bonkers:

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39 minutes ago, VT05763 said:

LJ did much of the day to day "on grass" coaching.

NP does some. (more now)

Doesn't mean one is better than the other necessarily.

Completely different job titles denotes different jobs - LJ was a coach who did some management, Nige is a manager that does some coaching.

I don't think we can compare them, we would probably be better off comparing LJ Flemming but even then that doesn't make sense because Flemming is a pure coach.

The financial side and when things happen strategically should be a lot closer to Nige than it was to LJ.

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17 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I’m not sure of the arguments for and against and I bet you and @Lrrrcouod go “hammer and tongs” on the subject, but…

…for me in the current climate we need to maximise getting youngsters through our Academy, whether we nab them from other Academies at the right age, or they come all the way through us.

@Mr Popodopolous Gary Glitter ???

image.thumb.png.daf70e57c52795388b5d97418ddfdce5.png

for me in the current climate we need to maximise getting youngsters through our Academy, whether we nab them from other Academies at the right age, or they come all the way through us.

Spot on and to be fair is being prioritised right now.

South Wales is a particularly healthy hunting ground for us currently.

Edited by VT05763
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1 minute ago, City1970 said:

It appears I got it all wrong. That must be the season we lost at Preston and Watford won at Fulham on the final day to be champions.

My memory is not what it was.

You’re right, it isn’t.

We never bought Sean McCarthy either, he was only on loan for 7 games.

I have a lot of time for him, unlike Jason Roberts (who we signed on loan at the same time but who had a row with Ward about playing for Grenada & buggered off after 3 games) McCarthy gave his best & even played in that Preston game despite his father passing away in the week. Not his fault we sold Goater, either.

Can’t imagine many loan players showing that sort of commitment these days.

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1 minute ago, Pezo said:

Completely different job titles denotes different jobs - LJ was a coach who did some management, Nige is a manager that does some coaching.

I don't think we can compare them, we would probably be better off comparing LJ Flemming but even then that doesn't make sense because Flemming is a pure coach.

The financial side and when things happen strategically should be a lot closer to Nige than it was to LJ.

LJ was a coach who did some management, Nige is a manager that does some coaching.

= perfectly described.

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Someone should also tell the Ipswich fans or some of them anyway, that it doesn't matter how wealthy the owner is and the speed of monitoring has improved drastically in the last couple of years- to the extent that clubs actually have to a) Submit Projections in March and if required, submit updated versions of this in the summer- ie 2020/21 accounts in Summer 2021 or as close to these as possible.

Plus the bit about Future Financial Information- the idea behind that is in order for the whole system to be joined up, e.g. if losses exceed a certain limit they have to submit during that season, the FFP projections for the following 2 seasons- it is monitored- or should be- on an ongoing, continuous basis.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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2 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

You’re right, it isn’t.

We never bought Sean McCarthy either, he was only on loan for 7 games.

I have a lot of time for him, unlike Jason Roberts (who we signed on loan at the same time but who had a row with Ward about playing for Grenada & buggered off after 3 games) McCarthy gave his best & even played in that Preston game despite his father passing away in the week. Not his fault we sold Goater, either.

Can’t imagine many loan players showing that sort of commitment these days.

Thanks for the update, I didn’t realise McCarthy had personal loss to deal with, I’m sorry for that.

what I do remember, is that I was at that Preston game.

If I can’t remember the facts, it’s time for me to leave this forum.

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13 minutes ago, Taz said:

Have had a look through and don't think anybody else has picked up on this, so I'll  answer it - maybe.

I work in a school, and when covid hit and started closing things left right and centre, as a school, we were still expected to pay our suppliers, or anybody that had an agreement in place already to provide a service - regardless of the fact that they were unable to provide said service.

Government advice (ha!) was that everyone should be paid as they would be normally, and that the government would reimburse us afterwards, so that we weren't out of pocket.

So, without being able to give a definite yes or no answer, on the same premise I would imagine that we as a club still had to pay for policing costs. That could well be reimbursed though.

So there's your answer. Maybe. Clear as mud really :bonkers:

Interesting. I never knew that was the situation. Do you think it still applied to private businesses as well as `public` ones like your school?

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12 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

No- subject to SL, as long as he's happy to keep paying the cash flow, then the main danger would be the FFP issue which I believe we'll tough out through player cutbacks etc.

So do you think there will be more player cutbacks over the summer with ooc players like last season?

Not sure we have enough players ?.

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Sure we can blame covid partially for a decrease in revenue but I’m struggling to understand how we’re blaming the crash in the transfer market. Looking at our squad, I cannot see where high incoming fees would have came from.

Maybe we would have got a slightly higher fee for Eliasson? Morrell? Maybe we would have sold Diedhiou? Considering the circumstances of all three, I don’t think we’ve missed out on mega money due to the crash of the transfer market.

For me, this is a reality check of where we are as a club. We’re now in a position where we’ll have to run an extremely tight ship over the next 3 years.

That being said, there is hope with the promising players coming through the academy, the current squad is good enough for the championship and we’ve got a top manager who has managed to progress us, despite the high volume of outgoings in the summer.

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38 minutes ago, Maesknoll Red said:

Maybe the European Superleague wasn’t such a bad idea, let the real moneybags clubs disappear and use it to get football in this country back in a more level footing.

It was partially why I was quite happy for them to eff off….I thought it would facilitate a reset.

12 minutes ago, Pezo said:

So do you think there will be more player cutbacks over the summer with ooc players like last season?

Not sure we have enough players ?.

I mentioned earlier about Nige saying he wanted a trimmer squad.  One of the other things he mentioned was salary parity, so I think the high earners are the priority to either:

- move on (not easy)

- re-contract on lower wages (not easy either)

So, yes, more trimming in the summer too, depending what we can shift in January.  I see Moore going to Hearts permanently or at least obligation to buy (not option to buy) in the summer if we extend his loan.

More minutes for Benarous, Conway, Towler etc.. Scott is already a bonafide first teamer in my head.

9 minutes ago, Fammyfan said:

Sure we can blame covid partially for a decrease in revenue but I’m struggling to understand how we’re blaming the crash in the transfer market. Looking at our squad, I cannot see where high incoming fees would have came from.

Maybe we would have got a slightly higher fee for Eliasson? Morrell? Maybe we would have sold Diedhiou? Considering the circumstances of all three, I don’t think we’ve missed out on mega money due to the crash of the transfer market.

For me, this is a reality check of where we are as a club. We’re now in a position where we’ll have to run an extremely tight ship over the next 3 years.

That being said, there is hope with the promising players coming through the academy, the current squad is good enough for the championship and we’ve got a top manager who has managed to progress us, despite the high volume of outgoings in the summer.

Quite simply, clubs realising the financial impacts of hugely reduced revenues.

Edited by Davefevs
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33 minutes ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

Why is it that fans dont get that players will, pretty much, never ever turn down a better opportunity, bigger club, more money?

You raise an interesting point because in business where the same should be true (and you started with that analogy) I know of & see plenty of occasions where people DO stick with their current employer and turn down the better opportunity with a bigger employer offering more money.

The reason? Fast growing private business with a stated objective - to exit (sell) for a certain price, and where employees while maybe below market rate, have a stake in that success and get a huge payday if and when it happens. They also know success of that kind, like winning promotions, is an amazing boost to the CV.

Can a Championship club like City give its players life changing promotion bonuses that outweigh the short term salary boost of a transfer while providing the gold star on the CV. If you doubled salary to £40k that’s £1m a year. A £2m promotion bonus for everyone on >25 starts, is £30m from a £200m windfall. 

Get creative and offer everyone an instant retrospective 2 year doubling of salaries (£2m for those on £20k, £1m for those on £10k etc) and you cover the boost from any premature transfer / pay rise on offer elsewhere and at less expense (or with the opportunity to give the incentive to more squad players). 

Private businesses do find ways to keep key employees below market rate and still achieving transformative success - along with incentives there does need to be a clear strategy and trajectory, and I guess fixed term contracts and agents are the anomaly that make football different - agents always favour twist.

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2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Did he?  Distinctly recall Macca being moved into the first team coaching role to give LJ more time to focus on recruitment.

What ever your view., I agree that he spent time on recruitment at times, but i am certain that did not occupy his entire week?..........but without a doubt he certainly did a lot  more coaching than Nige  has so far?

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35 minutes ago, Olé said:

You raise an interesting point because in business where the same should be true (and you started with that analogy) I know of & see plenty of occasions where people DO stick with their current employer and turn down the better opportunity with a bigger employer offering more money.

The reason? Fast growing private business with a stated objective - to exit (sell) for a certain price, and where employees while maybe below market rate, have a stake in that success and get a huge payday if and when it happens. They also know success of that kind, like winning promotions, is an amazing boost to the CV.

Can a Championship club like City give its players life changing promotion bonuses that outweigh the short term salary boost of a transfer while providing the gold star on the CV. If you doubled salary to £40k that’s £1m a year. A £2m promotion bonus for everyone on >25 starts, is £30m from a £200m windfall. 

Get creative and offer everyone an instant retrospective 2 year doubling of salaries (£2m for those on £20k, £1m for those on £10k etc) and you cover the boost from any premature transfer / pay rise on offer elsewhere and at less expense (or with the opportunity to give the incentive to more squad players). 

Private businesses do find ways to keep key employees below market rate and still achieving transformative success - along with incentives there does need to be a clear strategy and trajectory, and I guess fixed term contracts and agents are the anomaly that make football different - agents always favour twist.

You raise some good points Rob, but there is (might be, rather than is) a slight flaw in your plan.

The players who help gather the success might not be of a standing to safeguard that endeavour, and then become a financial liability.

Agree there are different ways to mix it up, and it is already quite likely that Kalas, Wells, Desilva and Palmer would all cop for a six-zero figure in the event of us reaching the top flight, based on an agent saying 'standard, Mark. You won't get a player in this division without one'.

I am very anxious about where these numbers leave us.

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2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Nagy will be in 21/22 accounts not the ones published.

Hopefully Nagy’s impairment will be offset by the wages saved.


@Mr Popodopolous

Have just read the full set of accounts….I stand corrected, I think we impaired his contract ahead of the summer to fall into 20/21’s accounts (where the losses will be halved). Smart.

Good spot, apologies for dismissing it.

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