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City release accounts - Ouch!


Henry
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Well done Steve, another fine mess your boy has got us into.  No one could have predicted Covid, but run away costs and failure were always likely and predictable with that leadership team. 
 

It’s convenient that the two orgs that have needed careful management over this period as they take off (Bears and Ashton Gate) don’t seem to have had this issue, and have thrived as organisations. 
 

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3 minutes ago, maxjak said:

No.........that's a really good name for him.....I agree that it is appropriate for a used car salesman masquerading as a CEO

…….and my point is that whilst I cannot disagree that he is the worst appointment EVER made by the club the man who appointed him (and even worse defended him) cannot get off Scot free and nor can the manager who worked with him for so long.

Edited by Numero Uno
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We desperately need a proper plan, both as regards players and finances.  There is little evidence we have either.

By the way, it isn’t SL’s club he is merely the temporary custodian. One day he will be gone. A new custodian will arrive, and hopefully be better prepared to take external advice, draw up a feasible plan, and leave the club in due course in a better place than he/she found it

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18 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

I don’t see anyone calling him the messiah. He has done some good things and bad things.  Overall though I would rather him than roll the dice for someone else. Maybe I’m just more conservative than others. I just can’t bear the thought of an owner with awful intentions. 

 

Yes, the Lansdowns have made their mistakes <cough>Ashton</cough> but they have covered the losses those mistakes made.

We are not a basket case like Derby with an irresponsible owner running out of money nor are we on the verge of selling our ground to cover past losses like Rovers.

There is a great physical infrastructure in place even if progress on the pitch has been limited. And now that the primary reason for the poor value player recruitment has departed to the banks of the Orwell we can certainly hope for that as well.

I would like them to continue in ownership and hope that the talk of foreign investment remains simply talk.

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8 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

Johnson 

 

Ahhh, the leader of the ‘all good things were LJ and all bad things were MA’ brigade. 

Beggars belief. You’ll be telling me that selling Ayling and Freeman for £1m combined was Ashton’s fault, or signing a million goalies - none better than FF was all MA.

Get yourself a bit of balance mate. 

The fact you are insinuating that it could have been LJ's decision to sell Ayling for peanuts shows how little you know about what goes on at the club, and what the chain of command was... 

You probably think the decision to sack SC was LJs fault too. 

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9 minutes ago, steviestevieneville said:

But your  just assuming whoever would of bought the club would of been bad owners, based on nothing than your opinion . We’re talking 20 years ago as well, not now. If you’re happy with a rebuilt stadium & training ground that’s one thing . However you or nobody else can’t say he’s not made multiple very poor footballing decisions. Like I said , head in the sand . 

My heads just fine thanks........but i appreciate your concern.   SL has made some very poor football decisions, but whatever u or I think of him...if he withdrew his financial support tomorrow and walked away, we would be screwed?     I am not saying they would be bad owners  , but foreign investment brings with it so many problems and issues.  I really would not like my club owned by someone from Quatar or Saudi personally.  For all SL's faults, I believe he has the best in mind for Bristol City, even if he has not kept his eye on the ball , and let things slip.   But it is his money......until someone else suitable comes along?   

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6 minutes ago, Maesknoll Red said:

That is difficult reading and if there are other clubs in the same position, something is very wrong with football as a commercial entity, if it’s just us, there is a huge incompetent en effort and mismanagement at play here.

I do wonder, given some of the games I see, how £16K PW can be seen as a realistic and viable wage for the return we get.

Football is broken, for one reason. Players wages. Until clubs pay in line with their income then you have this fantasy land. The Prem is so far out of sight in terms of wages , our wage will needs to be halved, at least. But until we sort out the parachute payments (with transfer fees currently lost as a source of income) then the Championship is finished. But it is the clubs that pay the wages, no one is putting a gun to the head of Steve L to have signed off on these crazy deals. Whilst LJ was part of the identification team, he certainly had zero input into wages and transfer fees. That was done between Ashton and the owner (A financial expert no less) . Now whilst these numbers are staggering, Steve L knew they were coming and that he would have to dig deep again. But we really do need to change approach, and that is why it is astonishing that having lost close to £40m we only just got a training ground and still do not have a cat 1 academy. All outside of the FFP numbers too. That is what I find incomprehensible. Now, as the world has caved in, we are having to rely on said academy to survive the future. This was not an unforeseen crash, this has been coming for 2/3 years. Covid has accelerated it, of course, but the raw, blatant financial mismanagement and poor decisions made by Ashton and Lansdown are staggering. 

But we now have to dig ourselves out of it. We have issues with high earners still at the club, Wells, Palmer, JD and Kallas a few of them, plus we are trying to develop youth players in the first team, and all along not get relegated. It is a mighty challenge that is for sure. But maybe, silver lining, it might stop us finally making dumb ass short term decisions over and over again. Finally. Tough 18 months still to come that is for sure. 

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22 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

Your mates at WRDC think this is your comeuppance :)

https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/38870-bristol-city-next-to-fail-p-and-s/

Although we have an owner who is willing to keep dipping his hands in his deep pockets and subsiding the club rather than spending money owed to HMRC and putting us into administration when not wanting to spend any more.

As for the criticism of SL I think he would acknowledge it is his debt that he has run up, but all easy to be critical with hindsight when a plan has gone tits up and impossible to say what may or may not have happened had we taken a different route or had different owners, therefore comparisons to other clubs also meaningless.

I think SL has always said he wanted the club to be self sufficient, and with some good purchases and good young players sold and large profits made, MA sold SL the dream of how we could get to the next level by starting to invest even more in the players we purchase, therefore with greater profits, unfortunately as we know the players purchased were only any good at bigging up MA's ego, this and covid means the players on the books have also devalued.

But even with these losses and having to re-build, at least we have SL and are not in Derby's position with an owner like Mel Morris

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10 minutes ago, spudski said:

I'd have no problem if professional football just imploded and it all had to start again.

The only people that benefit from the business system as it is, are the players and Agents.

Everyone else is out of pocket...owners and fans...and many who work within the game are on lower wages than they could get elsewhere.

Bang for buck...the entertainment value these players at this level give are way out of proportion.

Does anyone honestly believe the players we watch at our club are worth £20 k a week?

It's mental as fans that we go along with it.

If only everyone stopped paying for sky sports and season tickets for a year. Went to watch their local amateur side instead. 

Actions...that's what's needed...not words.

Yep...it's ingrained. But if we want change...

Spot on...........20k a week for most of our players is money for old rope?  I bet they cannot believe their luck? 

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4 hours ago, Fordy62 said:

Glad to have Lansdown, but these figures are by and large his fault. 

We had a really trim quality squad that needed two or three additions. Then he let Johnson and Ashton take him to the cleaners and treble the wage bill. This was always coming. 

Yep  agreed never sustainable but look at what Pearson is doing now and the work he's putting in around the club..It's more than signing loads of players and increasing the wage, What spill Ashton was saying the club was never ready for the premier League no where near and also COVID has hit the club hard.

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1 hour ago, Lorenzos Only Goal said:

Those operating costs have got to be the rental of the grounds and loan repayments. SL can't write off the loans under FFP like he used to do so I assume they get packaged up under the banner of Operational Costs. 

Loan repayments don't go through Profit and Loss usually- Interest Payments might, Rent does but that would be classed in its own category.

Or is the suggestion that categories have been disguised?

1 hour ago, Port Said Red said:

Your mates at WRDC think this is your comeuppance :)

https://dcfcfans.uk/topic/38870-bristol-city-next-to-fail-p-and-s/

Some are alright on there but some are a bunch of know nothing clowns about these issues- so if some of the latter think we fail for sure, then it probably means we'll scrape through albeit at the expense of on pitch progress for a few years. Hopefully the discussions with the EFL will keep us under that all-important £39m. OTOH some on there, I will be keen to read their analysis in an open-minded and constructive manner.

That Pride Park trip in the spring could be the final nail in their Championship on pitch coffin- I would just love it etc if we sent them down! I'll be there, away end or hospitality- the latter hopefully subject to their rules on away fans or home fans in hospitality. As for that idiot of a site owner...well he didn't see administration coming despite being one of those who went to meetings etc so his view is one I'll take with a pinch of salt- blind leading the blind springs to mind in his case.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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Just now, maxjak said:

Spot on...........20k a week for most of our players is money for old rope?  I bet they cannot believe their luck? 

The problem you have at this level is that many will never be Prem players and they know it. Too easy to go through the motions, picking up a decent wage without having to bust a gut....or have the desire. Going from Championship side to Championship side.

 

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34 minutes ago, maxjak said:

Spot on...........20k a week for most of our players is money for old rope?  I bet they cannot believe their luck? 

Welcome to the Championship tbh. Have a look at Reading's accounts in the years in which they finished midtable and bottom 3rd respectively- or Birmingham's the year they almost went down to name two.

OTOH Brentford and Barnsley albeit for one season have shone on less, Blackburn are 3rd on a possible £25m wage bill and Coventry, Luton, Millwall, Preston all outperform their budgets often.

We should have spent better but also we didn't capitalise at key times between 2017/18 to 2019/20.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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16 minutes ago, spudski said:

The problem you have at this level is that many will never be Prem players and they know it. Too easy to go through the motions, picking up a decent wage without having to bust a gut....or have the desire. Going from Championship side to Championship side.

 

And even easier to do it at a club with brilliant facilities, great place to live, beautiful area, under absolutely no pressure whatsoever. 
 

The dream!

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36 minutes ago, Eddie Hitler said:

 

Yes, the Lansdowns have made their mistakes <cough>Ashton</cough> but they have covered the losses those mistakes made.

We are not a basket case like Derby with an irresponsible owner running out of money nor are we on the verge of selling our ground to cover past losses like Rovers.

There is a great physical infrastructure in place even if progress on the pitch has been limited. And now that the primary reason for the poor value player recruitment has departed to the banks of the Orwell we can certainly hope for that as well.

I would like them to continue in ownership and hope that the talk of foreign investment remains simply talk.

We are a basket case of a club. We can't sell the ground because we dont own it!

Under lansdown there has been zero progress on the pitch to date.

What does physical infrastructure mean?

 

36 minutes ago, Red Army 75 said:

Not that I agree. But you can see why the club are charging 23quid for a boring 3rd cup tie

So that no one attends?

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2 minutes ago, frenchred said:

We are a basket case of a club. We can't sell the ground because we dont own it!

Under lansdown there has been zero progress on the pitch to date.

What does physical infrastructure mean?

 

So that no one attends?

Agree probably would of made more money charging between 10-15 pound. Panic stations 

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2 minutes ago, frenchred said:

We are a basket case of a club. We can't sell the ground because we dont own it!

Under lansdown there has been zero progress on the pitch to date.

What does physical infrastructure mean?

 

We do own it; as in the club is Bristol City Holdings which owns separately the companies that own the football club and the ground respectively.  This structure was brought in by Scott Davidson IIRC as a way of protecting the ground in the event of the footballl cub going bust.  Thus allowing a new football club to be started up with a ground to play in.  A lot of clubs changed to this corporate structure in the 1990s for just this reason.

Physical infrastructure is a fancy and over-used term for the new training ground and new three quarters of a stadium plus whatever else is being built.  The stadium now provides considerable non-football income from the rugby using it as well as conferences and exhibitions.

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6 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

He did. About six times. Painfully the football team/club managers managed turned most of them into bench warmers!

Ive been reading through this thread,,, i think we can all point to various issues over the last 5 years or so that have lead to this loss. Agree though,,, we have raised a fortune through selling a few players, but my god, most of the signings made have been pathetic…. No one is guaranteed a 100 percent success rate on transfers, but our record is horrific.

 

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4 minutes ago, Eddie Hitler said:

 

We do own it; as in the club is Bristol City Holdings which owns separately the companies that own the football club and the ground respectively.  This structure was brought in by Scott Davidson IIRC as a way of protecting the ground in the event of the footballl cub going bust.  Thus allowing a new football club to be started up with a ground to play in.  A lot of clubs changed to this corporate structure in the 1990s for just this reason.

Physical infrastructure is a fancy and over-used term for the new training ground and new three quarters of a stadium plus whatever else is being built.  The stadium now provides considerable non-football income from the rugby using it as well as conferences and exhibitions.

It's interesting though. I actually think "the Club" is Bristol City Football Club Ltd. That is the company that owns the trademarks to the badge and name, the company that fans own their shares in, and I believe is the company to which players are contracted. To my mind it's that entity thatis de facto "the Club". Note as well that Richard Gould is a director of that company, but not of its parent Bristol City Holdings Ltd.

I'm not certain, and have been trying to find out, which company is actually registered with the FA and EFL.

Ashton Gate Ltd is owned by that same parent, and it is that parent company's accounts that are being discussed in this thread. They consolidate those two company's (plus the women's team/company) and we get the headline (£38m) etc.

None of that stops the view that "we don't own the ground" being simplistic though, and that's down to the reasons you state. When Lansdown sells, I'd expect him to sell Bristol City Holdings Ltd rather than Bristol City Football Club Ltd.

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