City release accounts - Ouch!

[Loosey Boy]

13 minutes ago, Clevedon Red said:

Over the last 10 years lost an average £400k per week…….wowsers 

Anything else of interest from Kieran Macguire?

[Simon bristol]

12 minutes ago, Clevedon Red said:

Over the last 10 years lost an average £400k per week…….wowsers 

Clearly a lot of that, if correct, was only agreed after significant player sales to raise funds to pay for it.

[Eddie Hitler]

23 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

It's interesting though. I actually think "the Club" is Bristol City Football Club Ltd. That is the company that owns the trademarks to the badge and name, the company that fans own their shares in, and I believe is the company to which players are contracted. To my mind it's that entity thatis de facto "the Club". Note as well that Richard Gould is a director of that company, but not of its parent Bristol City Holdings Ltd.

I'm not certain, and have been trying to find out, which company is actually registered with the FA and EFL.

Ashton Gate Ltd is owned by that same parent, and it is that parent company's accounts that are being discussed in this thread. They consolidate those two company's (plus the women's team/company) and we get the headline (£38m) etc.

None of that stops the view that "we don't own the ground" being simplistic though, and that's down to the reasons you state. When Lansdown sells, I'd expect him to sell Bristol City Holdings Ltd rather than Bristol City Football Club Ltd.

 

Agreed; particularly that last point.

As a minor correction the company in which the fan shareholders own shares, which used to include me, is the holding company rather than the football club company.

[KegCity]

Hope this marks the end of the financial model reliant on player sales. Covid has exposed just how unreliable and unsustainable it is. The club was totally dependant on good recruitment that developed players we could sell for huge profits, this can't be guaranteed and in a worse case scenario like this sets us back years.

Be very disappointed to see the club fold at the first bid for Scott etc. The desperation to sell our best assets is bizarre, unless a player downs tools we should be doing our best to actually build a side.

[Mr Popodopolous]

 

17 minutes ago, KegCity said:

Hope this marks the end of the financial model reliant on player sales. Covid has exposed just how unreliable and unsustainable it is. The club was totally dependant on good recruitment that developed players we could sell for huge profits, this can't be guaranteed and in a worse case scenario like this sets us back years.

Be very disappointed to see the club fold at the first bid for Scott etc. The desperation to sell our best assets is bizarre, unless a player downs tools we should be doing our best to actually build a side.

That's only possible if the annual loss is below £13m though, or in a wider context, the 3 year loss falls below £39m.

Otherwise you are raising a profit in the market or saving on a few costs just to stand still- or if the individual expenditure is up to the limit, your club are hemmed in even if not in breach.

For speed and simplicity- and the below isn't us but a hypothetical club.

Club/Group Turnover

£20m

Total Club/Group Running Costs

£40m

Club Allowances/Exclusions for FFP

£5m

Therefore before you spend a penny more on strengthening the squad, you need to raise a £2m Profit on Player disposal just to stand still.

It's obviously a lot more complex with the 3 year rule.

Edited December 28, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Guest]

My head is hurting from all this who owns what, I am completely confused.

Can some one tell this idiot the answers to these questions.

Who owns the players contracts, and is a member of the EFL?
Who owns the training ground and the stadium?
Please don’t answer SL.

[NcnsBcfc]

1 hour ago, Fordy62 said:

 

Wow. 

Final year of contracts is normally the highest earning for players, as well as some getting "loyalty bonuses" for seeing out their contracts no doubt.

The irony of it all.....

[Lorenzos Only Goal]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Loan repayments don't go through Profit and Loss usually- Interest Payments might, Rent does but that would be classed in its own category.

Or is the suggestion that categories have been disguised?

 

No I don't think there is anything sinister or crocked in our accounts. 

There are just so many costs through so many layers of companies i expect its litterally operational costs wrapped up as a headline figure.  

I forgot about police costs I wonder if we still got charged for that when the gates were closed? 

[ExiledAjax]

34 minutes ago, Eddie Hitler said:

 

Agreed; particularly that last point.

As a minor correction the company in which the fan shareholders own shares, which used to include me, is the holding company rather than the football club company.

Yes, it is isn't it. I misremembered. 

My error aside, the rest of the point stands: there's some subtlety and nuance to the legal identity of "the Club"

Edited December 28, 2021 by ExiledAjax

[Clevedon Red]

14 minutes ago, Loosey Boy said:

Anything else of interest from Kieran Macguire?

Some snippets.

Whilst Lansdown is around the club is relatively secure and he is the lynchpin to sustainability.

For every £100 of income we spent £212 on wages alone before anything else and that is a cause for concern.

What we have been good at is generating £70m in player sales over the past 3 years.

For FFP we should be ok due to player sales in 2019 (Webster etc) plus change in rules from efl due to covid losses. 

If we avoid lockdown, next years losses should be better, but not good unless we sell someone for good money. I.e. pull a rabbit out the hat.

Investment in community projects, academy and womens football is excluded from FFP.

Record losses will be seen across the majority of clubs in a division the which is the biggest loss making league in European football. Clubs that have made a profit recently Wycombe and Rotherham were both relegated.

We do have a good commercial model but obviously massively impacted recently.

Without SL we would not be competing in the championship as he’s put in £214m in loans/shares.

 

[Tin Soldier]

3 hours ago, Mr Hankey said:

Struggling to get my head around the comments of “glad we have Lansdown”, “shows how lucky we are to have him”……is that really the takeaway from this, or am i living in a parody world? These losses have come under his watch & long term ownership, regardless of the covid situation, we would still be making monumentous losses

A shambles of a club.
It was on Lansdown's watch so he has to take responsibility. These accounts just say to me that as soon as we develop any player worth any value, they will be sold.This club is only going to go one way.

Will not be surprised if Lansdown is already lining up a new £ backer for the football side of Bristol Sport. Where is his “chairman” (joke) gone?

Edited December 28, 2021 by Tin Soldier

[Loosey Boy]

1 minute ago, Clevedon Red said:

Some snippets.

Whilst Lansdown is around the club is relatively secure and he is the lynchpin to sustainability.

For every £100 of income we spent £212 on wages alone before anything else and that is a cause for concern.

What we have been good at is generating £70m in player sales over the past 3 years.

For FFP we should be ok due to player sales in 2019 (Webster etc) plus change in rules from efl due to covid losses. 

If we avoid lockdown, next years losses should be better, but not good unless we sell someone for good money. I.e. pull a rabbit out the hat.

Investment in community projects, academy and womens football is excluded from FFP.

Record losses will be seen across the majority of clubs in a division the which is the biggest loss making league in European football. Clubs that have made a profit recently Wycombe and Rotherham were both relegated.

We do have a good commercial model but obviously massively impacted recently.

Without SL we would not be competing in the championship as he’s put in £214m in loans/shares.

 

Thanks @Clevedon Red- really useful insight…..much appreciated

[pongo88]

1 hour ago, Fordy62 said:

 

Wow. 

That’s really interesting. In 2015 Cotterill had an excellent squad, by League One standards, though not good enough to be competitive in the Championship. What was needed was a small number of quality additions but what we got was an endless stream of players who pushed up the wage bill without any return on investment 

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, And Its Smith said:

Who’s knows?  Maybe we would have thrown money after it in an even bigger way and still failed.  Everyone is wise in hindsight. Lansdown has got it right off the field and made one huge recent error in putting so much faith in Ashton. Anyone who wants Lansdown out is assuming that the perfect owner takes over.  That’s unlikely.  Lansdown isn’t perfect but show me someone who is. 

It’s not hindsight by anyone, it’s just that there are genuinely many scenarios that could’ve played out.  Some of those scenarios might’ve been better, some might’ve been worse.

2 hours ago, Lorenzos Only Goal said:

Those operating costs have got to be the rental of the grounds and loan repayments. SL can't write off the loans under FFP like he used to do so I assume they get packaged up under the banner of Operational Costs. 

@Bristol Robtoo.

Some of those costs will be rent to Ashton Gate Limited.  The loans are paid by Ashton Gate Limited, so both will be included in the Holding Company accounts published today.

Other costs will include services to Bristol Sport, for marketing, ticketing etc.

God knows how much of the £11m is picked up in those costs, but I suspect a reasonable chunk.

2 hours ago, maxjak said:

Yeah.......ooh! let;s get a nice foreign owner...that would cause no problems?  People are completely unrealistic, be very careful what u wish For?  LJ's dismissal has also  worked out so very well?

Not all foreign owners are bad, just like not all English ones are good.  Andy Holt at Accrington v Steve Dale at Bury for example.

[Clutton Caveman]

6 hours ago, BS15_RED said:

Eye watering losses, no wonder we can’t spend to bring anyone in. Shows how lucky we are to have SL, I wonder how that compares to other championship clubs?

Surely reality on wages in the Championship must come now

[Mr Popodopolous]

Notes 18-19 look interesting.

Potentially Notes 28 and 29 feed into bits of this too.

In short, as it stands we appear to have another 16 years to repay the loan for the training ground and we seem to have that long term loan at interest to repay- £70m in 2020 and now it is £71.59m- until May 2040. Although if SL converts bits and bobs of that to equity, does that reduce the repayable amount?

Edit- re-read it. Repayable at regular intervals of £500,000 and £5m.

What do you think @Davefevs @Hxj and anyone else for that matter! Seems an odd way of writing it- why £500,000 and £5m as opposed to £5.5m unless it's one part interest, one part the loan itself? It doesn't sound great anyway- may not necessarily hit the Profit and Loss that quickly, but it will certainly or could certainly eat into cash flow etc.

Edited December 28, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[CyderInACan]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

If only everyone stopped paying for sky sports and season tickets for a year. Went to watch their local amateur side instead. 

I live in Ashton. My local amateur side, sadly, are Bristol City FC. 

[Clutton Caveman]

6 minutes ago, Tin Soldier said:

A shambles of a club.
It was on Lansdown's watch so he has to take responsibility. These accounts just say to me that as soon as we develop any player worth any value, they will be sold.This club is only going to go one way.

Will not be surprised if Lansdown is already lining up a new £ backer for the football side of Bristol Sport. Where is his “chairman” (joke) gone?

How many Championship clubs will show accounts that look sensible. It is the automate fantasy league

[Hxj]

10 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

God knows how much of the £11m is picked up in those costs, but I suspect a reasonable chunk.

If you add up the 2020 operational costs in AGL and BCFC they are about £3.5 million more than the operational costs in BCH, which suggests that £3.5 million of BCFC operational costs are paid to AGL. 

Edited December 28, 2021 by Hxj

[Tin Soldier]

2 hours ago, spudski said:

I'd have no problem if professional football just imploded and it all had to start again.

The only people that benefit from the business system as it is, are the players and Agents.

Everyone else is out of pocket...owners and fans...and many who work within the game are on lower wages than they could get elsewhere.

Bang for buck...the entertainment value these players at this level give are way out of proportion.

Does anyone honestly believe the players we watch at our club are worth £20 k a week?

It's mental as fans that we go along with it.

If only everyone stopped paying for sky sports and season tickets for a year. Went to watch their local amateur side instead. 

Actions...that's what's needed...not words.

Yep...it's ingrained. But if we want change...

Great post. I stopped going to AG this season after 40+ years. Really don’t miss it at all. Got loads of spare £££s to spend elsewhere. Costs me £5/game to watch local football or rugby and I enjoy it more. Football will implode sooner or later. This can’t go on. 

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, And Its Smith said:

I don’t see anyone calling him the messiah. He has done some good things and bad things.  Overall though I would rather him than roll the dice for someone else. Maybe I’m just more conservative than others. I just can’t bear the thought of an owner with awful intentions. 

You’d hope SL would do his due diligence on any new owner wouldn’t you?

2 hours ago, East Londoner said:

Interesting part of that i hadn’t seen mentioned here is there’s £11 million of transfer fees still due which outweighs transfer fees owed. So whilst it looks bad it could’ve been worse 

That’s cash flow not profit and loss.  It makes no different to the losses.

2 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Wow indeed. But wages in the Championship significantly increased across the board over that 2015-2021 period, as did our revenue due to the redevelopment of AG, enabling us to spend a lot more on wages.

Also, even with a circa £30m annual wage budget, that was still usually only 12-14th highest in the Championship. 

The big point for me is that revenues were levelling out after the redevelopment…whilst wages / costs continued to grow faster.  Those Wage increases are not supported by 20k attendances.  We needed to make those 25k average attendances to keep pace (ignoring covid).

[Loosey Boy]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

You’d hope SL would do his due diligence on any new owner wouldn’t you?

That’s cash flow not profit and loss.  It makes no different to the losses.

The big point for me is that revenues were levelling out after the redevelopment…whilst wages / costs continued to grow faster.  Those Wage increases are not supported by 20k attendances.  We needed to make those 25k average attendances to keep pace (ignoring covid).

I guess SL was hoping that if we were looking like a play off pushing team, we would be getting c25k crowds consistently - unfortunately, we’ve gone backwards and then Covid hit

[Bristol Rob]

Not sure what the problem is - Barca were about a billion quid in debt and have just made a 55mil signing.

I reckon based on those numbers, we should have eleventy-trillion to spend in Jan.

[Port Said Red]

4 minutes ago, Bristol Rob said:

Not sure what the problem is - Barca were about a billion quid in debt and have just made a 55mil signing.

I reckon based on those numbers, we should have eleventy-trillion to spend in Jan.

Thank you Priti Patel

[Hxj]

15 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

What do you think @Davefevs @Hxj and anyone else for that matter! Seems an odd way of writing it- why £500,000 and £5m as opposed to £5.5m unless it's one part interest, one part the loan itself?

I think that you have misread.  There are six annual repayments of £500,000, followed by annual repayments of £5m, followed by full repayment of the balance in 2040.

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, Eddie Hitler said:

 

Yes, the Lansdowns have made their mistakes <cough>Ashton</cough> but they have covered the losses those mistakes made.

We are not a basket case like Derby with an irresponsible owner running out of money nor are we on the verge of selling our ground to cover past losses like Rovers.

There is a great physical infrastructure in place even if progress on the pitch has been limited. And now that the primary reason for the poor value player recruitment has departed to the banks of the Orwell we can certainly hope for that as well.

I would like them to continue in ownership and hope that the talk of foreign investment remains simply talk.

Those are definitely plus points for SL / his ownership.

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 minute ago, Hxj said:

I think that you have misread.  There are six annual repayments of £500,000, followed by annual repayments of £5m, followed by full repayment of the balance in 2040.

Thanks. Doesn't feel positive anyway, a lot of cash will be flowing out of the club to SL in the years to come? Granted that's a pessimistic take...?

Promotion to the PL would solve the debt issue in one go but that looks a long way off.

[RUSSEL85]

So, how on earth do we get out of this rather big pickle? Do we have any assets we can sell? Or is that papering over a very large crack?

Release big earners we can’t sell?

Lower match day prices to increase attendance and possible merchandise?

reinvest in youth squad or promote to first team?

I wonder if there is an inevitable relegation, if not this season then next. It’s quite depressing.

[View from the Dolman]

Just now, Mr Popodopolous said:

Thanks. Doesn't feel positive anyway, a lot of cash will be flowing out of the club to SL in the years to come? Granted that's a pessimistic take...?

Promotion to the PL would solve the debt issue in one go but that looks a long way off.

That's assuming the payments happen. Pretty sure previous loans have had repayment plans listed but they've then been refinanced or converted to equity. 

[spudski]

14 minutes ago, Tin Soldier said:

Great post. I stopped going to AG this season after 40+ years. Really don’t miss it at all. Got loads of spare £££s to spend elsewhere. Costs me £5/game to watch local football or rugby and I enjoy it more. Football will implode sooner or later. This can’t go on. 

Similar to me. It wasn't so much the money for me, just the ball ache of getting there, either by car or public transport. 

Plus...I was bored with it. It just wasn't entertainment. Regardless of results.

I now watch my local team. Can decide 15 mins before to go, have a few pints, stand or sit anywhere around the ground, see mates etc....plus I find it more entertaining. 

It's been cathartic and feels like FREEDOM.

All for a tenner and no hassles. 

What's not to like.