It’s just one of those things you put down to experience.

[Red Billy]

Is experience over rated? We have a young side but if you are good enough then is that all that matters. Zak Vyner still gets branded as inexperienced yet he’s made nearly a hundred appearances in the Championship? Not a criticism of him in the slightest but at what number of games do people perceive someone to be experienced?

[Major Isewater]

13 minutes ago, Red Billy said:

Is experience over rated? We have a young side but if you are good enough then is that all that matters. Zak Vyner still gets branded as inexperienced yet he’s made nearly a hundred appearances in the Championship? Not a criticism of him in the slightest but at what number of games do people perceive someone to be experienced?

Experience can be ‘ overrated ‘ if it’s repeatedly the same one.

Experience can be very destructive if it’s bad.

 I think what is important is a balance in a team, if we’re talking sport. 
 

Optimists , pessimists, creators, destructors, young or old all are needed in the great tapestry of life.

[ExiledAjax]

I think firstly you need to think in terms of minutes played rather than just appearances. Young players especially can get appearances that are actually just 20 minutes (or a lot less) at the end of a game, that's not as relevant as a full 90. So look at minutes not apps.

Max minutes in one season of football in the Championship is 46 x 90 = 4,140. 100 games is obviously equivalent to 9,000 minutes.

So for me I'd be looking at a player needing to have at least the equivalent of a full season under his belt. So probably about 5,000 minutes to be called "experienced".

But, we tend to use the term to refer to players who are actually very experienced, those with tens of thousands of minutes played. The word often gets used as a euphemism for age when referring to older players.

Vyner has 8,257 minutes of Championship Football, plus 1,328 in the Scottish Prem. I'd say he's experienced at this point, especially considering that those Championship minutes are across 105 appearances, so lots of full 90s and an impressive average of 78.6 minutes per appearance.

Edited January 3, 2022 by ExiledAjax

[cityal]

As an aside to this - Vyner shares a birthdate (14 May 1997) with Ruben Dias of Man City.

Obviously the two are at very different levels career wise, but think about how Dias is described now (more so than in his early days, when I did hear him described as young a few times)

"Young" is the wrong description for a 24 year old pro fottballer IMO., at that stage they should be approachig their prime. I think recent criticism of Vyner (while sometimes fair, sometimes harsh) is based around the thought that fewer people see him as "young" and more people are treating him as just a pro.

[Red Billy]

51 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

I think firstly you need to think in terms of minutes played rather than just appearances. Young players especially can get appearances that are actually just 20 minutes (or a lot less) at the end of a game, that's not as relevant as a full 90. So look at minutes not apps.

Max minutes in one season of football in the Championship is 46 x 90 = 4,140. 100 games is obviously equivalent to 9,000 minutes.

So for me I'd be looking at a player needing to have at least the equivalent of a full season under his belt. So probably about 5,000 minutes to be called "experienced".

But, we tend to use the term to refer to players who are actually very experienced, those with tens of thousands of minutes played. The word often gets used as a euphemism for age when referring to older players.

Vyner has 8,257 minutes of Championship Football, plus 1,328 in the Scottish Prem. I'd say he's experienced at this point, especially considering that those Championship minutes are across 105 appearances, so lots of full 90s and an impressive average of 78.6 minutes per appearance.

Great stats

[swanker]

If you put it down to experience then you’re sad sweat dreamer!

[Malago]

Footballers generally are their prime aged 26-30.  Defenders more like 28-32.  Goalkeepers 30 plus.  That seems to be the perceived wisdom of the “experts”.

[Tinmans Love Child]

1 hour ago, Red Billy said:

Is experience over rated? We have a young side but if you are good enough then is that all that matters. Zak Vyner still gets branded as inexperienced yet he’s made nearly a hundred appearances in the Championship? Not a criticism of him in the slightest but at what number of games do people perceive someone to be experienced?

I’m reading the Alex Ferguson biography called ‘Alex’ at the moment, and apparently he would split his squad into 3 age categories:

- under 23’s;

- 23-28; and

- over 28.  

His aim was to have 3 players for each outfield position, and those 3 would be from each age category, the under 23 to keep the older player on his toes, the player in their prime aged 23-28 to be the main man, and then the old head in the over 28 category for experience.

The next important part to ensure longevity of success and keep the squad rolling forward with consistency was to ensure the contracts of players in the 3 age categories, or equally 1 position are not elapsing at the same time, I.e. you don’t want all your 23-28 players ending contracts at the same time, or you don’t want your 3 left back contracts running out at the same time for example.

This relatively simple process ensures that you know exactly where you are in terms of squad experience, what gaps might be coming up, helps to identify what types of players you might need and when you might need them.  If another club snaps up your under 23 left back then you know you want to bring in another under 23 left back, not one whose over 28.

I don’t know what City do or if we follow anything like this process, but it would be quite a good way of measuring where our current squad sits on the ‘Alex Ferguson experience scale’.  Anyone got the time to do this?

 

 

[The Batman]

6 minutes ago, Tinmans Love Child said:

I’m reading the Alex Ferguson biography called ‘Alex’ at the moment, and apparently he would split his squad into 3 age categories:

- under 23’s;

- 23-28; and

- over 28.  

His aim was to have 3 players for each outfield position, and those 3 would be from each age category, the under 23 to keep the older player on his toes, the player in their prime aged 23-28 to be the main man, and then the old head in the over 28 category for experience.

The next important part to ensure longevity of success and keep the squad rolling forward with consistency was to ensure the contracts of players in the 3 age categories, or equally 1 position are not elapsing at the same time, I.e. you don’t want all your 23-28 players ending contracts at the same time, or you don’t want your 3 left back contracts running out at the same time for example.

This relatively simple process ensures that you know exactly where you are in terms of squad experience, what gaps might be coming up, helps to identify what types of players you might need and when you might need them.  If another club snaps up your under 23 left back then you know you want to bring in another under 23 left back, not one whose over 28.

I don’t know what City do or if we follow anything like this process, but it would be quite a good way of measuring where our current squad sits on the ‘Alex Ferguson experience scale’.  Anyone got the time to do this?

 

Well he had the benefit of being the manager for such a long time, he could mould the under 23s in to what he wanted and would reap the benefits of them as they got older in to the other age brackets and then the cycle would start again with the new youth players. 

The class of 92 teenagers he brought in to the team in the mid 90's alongside Keane, Cole, Schmeichel etc for the treble success in 1999 when they were in their mid 20's.

The same applied for the 2000's team where Rooney & Ronaldo were signed as teenagers in the early 2000's but they were at their very best in the later stage of the decade when they were in their mid 20's and United won 3 leagues, a champions league and got to the final of 2 others in the space of 4 years (losing both to Barca's Messi, Iniesta, Puyol side). 

Would love City to have success with academy players. 

[Tinmans Love Child]

8 minutes ago, The Batman said:

Well he had the benefit of being the manager for such a long time, he could mould the under 23s in to what he wanted and would reap the benefits of them as they got older in to the other age brackets and then the cycle would start again with the new youth players. 

The class of 92 teenagers he brought in to the team in the mid 90's alongside Keane, Cole, Schmeichel etc for the treble success in 1999 when they were in their mid 20's.

The same applied for the 2000's team where Rooney & Ronaldo were signed as teenagers in the early 2000's but they were at their very best in the later stage of the decade when they were in their mid 20's and United won 3 leagues, a champions league and got to the final of 2 others in the space of 4 years (losing both to Barca's Messi, Iniesta, Puyol side). 

Would love City to have success with academy players. 

Bare in mind when he first joined Utd in 87 the squad was ageing and they had next to no academy to speak of so this system would have highlighted the gaps.  
 

He put more scouts in place at Utd in his first week, and knew it was a 5 year plan really to get into a position where they could not only win the league, but keep winning it, which they obviously did with multiple squads.  In the book he mentions that the likes of Jose and Kloop never took/take a long term view of the squad, and this means after the 3/4 glory years the squad is aged and it takes too long or too much £££ to replace what you’ve lost, and that’s when those managers move on.

Edited January 3, 2022 by Tinmans Love Child

[stephenkibby.]

55 minutes ago, swanker said:

If you put it down to experience then you’re sad sweat dreamer!

Yeah thought it was going to be another sad tear on my pillow.

[pillred]

1 hour ago, swanker said:

If you put it down to experience then you’re sad sweat dreamer!

Sweet even!! (which is much better than being a sad wet dreamer :laugh:.)

Edited January 3, 2022 by pillred
Punctuation

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, Tinmans Love Child said:

I’m reading the Alex Ferguson biography called ‘Alex’ at the moment, and apparently he would split his squad into 3 age categories:

- under 23’s;

- 23-28; and

- over 28.  

His aim was to have 3 players for each outfield position, and those 3 would be from each age category, the under 23 to keep the older player on his toes, the player in their prime aged 23-28 to be the main man, and then the old head in the over 28 category for experience.

The next important part to ensure longevity of success and keep the squad rolling forward with consistency was to ensure the contracts of players in the 3 age categories, or equally 1 position are not elapsing at the same time, I.e. you don’t want all your 23-28 players ending contracts at the same time, or you don’t want your 3 left back contracts running out at the same time for example.

This relatively simple process ensures that you know exactly where you are in terms of squad experience, what gaps might be coming up, helps to identify what types of players you might need and when you might need them.  If another club snaps up your under 23 left back then you know you want to bring in another under 23 left back, not one whose over 28.

I don’t know what City do or if we follow anything like this process, but it would be quite a good way of measuring where our current squad sits on the ‘Alex Ferguson experience scale’.  Anyone got the time to do this?

 

 

Thanks for that….interesting that in a David Moyes interview when at Everton he showed his whiteboard with exactly that “notion”, (names blurred out) and where recruitment was focussed.  Obviously learned from his time with Ferguson.

Heres our squad shaded into those tiers…with league minutes shown.

[Tinmans Love Child]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Thanks for that….interesting that in a David Moyes interview when at Everton he showed his whiteboard with exactly that “notion”, (names blurred out) and where recruitment was focussed.  Obviously learned from his time with Ferguson.

Heres our squad shaded into those tiers…with league minutes shown.

Great work!!  Actually in the book Fergie said he chose Moyes to takeover as he knew he would continue this process, and has gone on record as saying Moyes was the only person he trusted to continue the long term thinking, so was gutted when Utd sacked him, after that it was all about short term thinking 

Edited January 3, 2022 by Tinmans Love Child

[Tinmans Love Child]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Thanks for that….interesting that in a David Moyes interview when at Everton he showed his whiteboard with exactly that “notion”, (names blurred out) and where recruitment was focussed.  Obviously learned from his time with Ferguson.

Heres our squad shaded into those tiers…with league minutes shown.

You can see our problems, we are light of good players in the prime 23-28 age, and have too many under 23 players

[Red Billy]

4 hours ago, Tinmans Love Child said:

I’m reading the Alex Ferguson biography called ‘Alex’ at the moment, and apparently he would split his squad into 3 age categories:

- under 23’s;

- 23-28; and

- over 28.  

His aim was to have 3 players for each outfield position, and those 3 would be from each age category, the under 23 to keep the older player on his toes, the player in their prime aged 23-28 to be the main man, and then the old head in the over 28 category for experience.

The next important part to ensure longevity of success and keep the squad rolling forward with consistency was to ensure the contracts of players in the 3 age categories, or equally 1 position are not elapsing at the same time, I.e. you don’t want all your 23-28 players ending contracts at the same time, or you don’t want your 3 left back contracts running out at the same time for example.

This relatively simple process ensures that you know exactly where you are in terms of squad experience, what gaps might be coming up, helps to identify what types of players you might need and when you might need them.  If another club snaps up your under 23 left back then you know you want to bring in another under 23 left back, not one whose over 28.

I don’t know what City do or if we follow anything like this process, but it would be quite a good way of measuring where our current squad sits on the ‘Alex Ferguson experience scale’.  Anyone got the time to do this?

 

 

Not meaning to cause any offence but are you a Man United fan or is the book a good read in general? Looking for something to read so may take a look.

[Tinmans Love Child]

4 minutes ago, Red Billy said:

Not meaning to cause any offence but are you a Man United fan or is the book a good read in general? Looking for something to read so may take a look.

No not a Man U fan at all, my wife got it for me for Xmas!  It’s a good read, interesting stuff on pre Man Utd era as well

[Red Billy]

5 minutes ago, Tinmans Love Child said:

No not a Man U fan at all, my wife got it for me for Xmas!  It’s a good read, interesting stuff on pre Man Utd era as well

Thanks - think I’ll give it a go

[LondonBristolian]

I think experience is quite a complex thing as it's not just how much exposure someone has had to first team situations but also how quickly they learn, and what it is they're learning.

I remember a manager - I think Terry Venables - saying something to the effect of "everyone thinks that practice makes perfect but actually practice makes permanent. If someone keeps learning the wrong things, they'll keep doing the wrong things.

So you could have a young player who learns quickly, with a manager who teaches them the right things, who after eighteen months in the first team acts and thinks the way you want an "experienced" player to act. Or you could have someone who has played the game for ten years but failed to learn and adapt or learned all the wrong things from all the wrong people. And technically they're "experienced" but they're not going to be offering what you want from experienced players. 

[Tinmans Love Child]

5 minutes ago, Red Billy said:

Thanks - think I’ll give it a go

Alex: The Man Behind The Legend https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1739855205/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_FAVHHSTZQJPYCRH6PW6C

[Red Billy]

23 minutes ago, Tinmans Love Child said:

Alex: The Man Behind The Legend https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1739855205/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_FAVHHSTZQJPYCRH6PW6C

Just downloaded the sample on Kindle and read the first chapter.

[Tinmans Love Child]

1 hour ago, Red Billy said:

Just downloaded the sample on Kindle and read the first chapter.

I didn’t realise another team in Red came in for him before Utd!  #nospoilers Enjoy!

[Rocking Red Cyril]

4 hours ago, Tinmans Love Child said:

I didn’t realise another team in Red came in for him before Utd!  #nospoilers Enjoy!

Was that us