Selred Posted January 24, 2022 Report Share Posted January 24, 2022 A little debate from the Albert thread, so be good to see what everyone thinks of the word journeyman to mean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCFCGav Posted January 24, 2022 Report Share Posted January 24, 2022 Can't vote because I think they need to be some of both. 9 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBW Posted January 24, 2022 Report Share Posted January 24, 2022 Haha actually made a poll out of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bristol Rob Posted January 24, 2022 Report Share Posted January 24, 2022 Someone tweet Susie Dent! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledAjax Posted January 24, 2022 Report Share Posted January 24, 2022 1 minute ago, BCFCGav said: Can't vote because I think they need to be some of both. Yeh I think the term does suggest a lower level of player. No one would really refer to Zlatan (9 clubs) as a journeyman. I'd use it to refer specifically to somone who a) played for many clubs but b) never achieved much of note whilst doing so. But, of the two options presented, the correct answer is clearly a player who has played for many clubs. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One Team Posted January 24, 2022 Report Share Posted January 24, 2022 (edited) Personally I didn’t think this was a debate. Surely the name itself suggests someone who has moved around a lot to different clubs? An average fairly unremarkable player is surely just that? Edited January 24, 2022 by One Team 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBW Posted January 24, 2022 Report Share Posted January 24, 2022 Just now, ExiledAjax said: Yeh I think the term does suggest a lower level of player. No one would really refer to Zlatan (9 clubs) as a journeyman. I'd use it to refer specifically to somone who a) played for many clubs but b) never achieved much of note whilst doing so. But, of the two options presented, the correct answer is clearly a player who has played for many clubs. I would... 1 minute ago, One Team said: Personally I didn’t think this was a debate. Surely the name itself suggest someone who has moved around a lot to different clubs? An average fairly unremarkable player is surely just that? Rivaldo, Zlatan... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One Team Posted January 24, 2022 Report Share Posted January 24, 2022 The dictionary definition seems to point the second option! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Horse With No Name Posted January 24, 2022 Report Share Posted January 24, 2022 The actual definition is a skilled man who moves around to where his skills are needed. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBW Posted January 24, 2022 Report Share Posted January 24, 2022 Just now, One Team said: The dictionary definition seems to point the second option! A Google search for 'Journeyman Footballers' doesn't though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledAjax Posted January 24, 2022 Report Share Posted January 24, 2022 6 minutes ago, The Horse With No Name said: The actual definition is a skilled man who moves around to where his skills are needed. But the word has been altered a little through use. Same as the word "professional" really means someone who belongs to one of the professions, and as such is held to certain levels of ethics and standards. But the term is now used to just mean "does something for money". Hence we get "professional" footballers. These words take on a different meaning when used in the context of football. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveF Posted January 24, 2022 Report Share Posted January 24, 2022 21 minutes ago, One Team said: Personally I didn’t think this was a debate. Surely the name itself suggests someone who has moved around a lot to different clubs? An average fairly unremarkable player is surely just that? I agree. I've always considered it the first option and never heard anything think its the second option, until now! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcfc01 Posted January 24, 2022 Report Share Posted January 24, 2022 I've always viewed it as a player who has had many clubs, mainly in the lower divisions. In its literal sense I suppose it could be aimed at any player who has played for numerous clubs, but I see it as a relatively derogative term which I wouldn't apply to players who have had a top class career. I actually thought everyone saw it the same way as me, apparently not - every day is a school day 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selred Posted January 24, 2022 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2022 1 hour ago, BCFCGav said: Can't vote because I think they need to be some of both. But would you call an average player who played for 1 club a journeyman? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leveller Posted January 24, 2022 Report Share Posted January 24, 2022 51 minutes ago, DaveF said: I agree. I've always considered it the first option and never heard anything think its the second option, until now! Except just about every dictionary you can find. The first meaning is confined to football fans and is new. A malapropism, but it is gaining traction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cidercity1987 Posted January 24, 2022 Report Share Posted January 24, 2022 In football terms, it means the former In actual fact, it means the latter Does that help? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebounder Posted January 24, 2022 Report Share Posted January 24, 2022 The answer is Trevor Benjamin. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trevor_Benjamin 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leveller Posted January 24, 2022 Report Share Posted January 24, 2022 21 minutes ago, Selred said: But would you call an average player who played for 1 club a journeyman? Yes 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebounder Posted January 24, 2022 Report Share Posted January 24, 2022 And there's a goalkeeper I read his autobiography can't remember his name. Ah here he is: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutz_Pfannenstiel I agree they have to move a lot and be average. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selred Posted January 24, 2022 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2022 1 minute ago, Leveller said: Yes I know you would @Leveller but I was asking a different poster. You said only a few football fans would use the term to describe a player of many clubs, currently at 70%. I think it may you in the wrong by underestimating the use of this term in British Football. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cidercity1987 Posted January 24, 2022 Report Share Posted January 24, 2022 I think there is fault on both sides here. Pretty ignorant if you don't actually know what it means (average). But equally you have to be pretty stupid to know what it means but not realise that the majority of football fans use it to mean something else (lots of clubs). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pezo Posted January 24, 2022 Report Share Posted January 24, 2022 Is this all just the confusion caused by pundits that haven't seen a dictionary for 30 years? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHILINFRANCE Posted January 24, 2022 Report Share Posted January 24, 2022 1 hour ago, The Horse With No Name said: The actual definition is a skilled man who moves around to where his skills are needed. That is probably the closest 'definition' to the real meaning of the word. To understand properly, it is necessary to forget any connection to the word 'journey'; for journeyman has its origins in the French word 'Journée', meaning day. Centuries ago, skilled tradesmen (roofers, brickmasons and the like) would travel throughout France offering their services on a daily basis. They were self-employed and skilled, although generally limited to one particular skill - perhaps this is where the suggestion comes from that (in a football sense) they were of limited ability. Once they had finished the job, they would move on to the next town seeking work on a similar basis, i.e. to be paid for a day's work. So there you are. A skilled man was paid for his services on a daily basis, a 'journée', hence the term 'journéeman', and one can only assume that the travelling from town to town part has led, in football terms, to the term being applied to a player who has moved around supplying his trade to various employers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveF Posted January 24, 2022 Report Share Posted January 24, 2022 28 minutes ago, Leveller said: Except just about every dictionary you can find. The first meaning is confined to football fans and is new. A malapropism, but it is gaining traction. But we're discussing it in football terms are we not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leveller Posted January 24, 2022 Report Share Posted January 24, 2022 2 minutes ago, Selred said: I know you would @Leveller but I was asking a different poster. You said only a few football fans would use the term to describe a player of many clubs, currently at 70%. I think it may you in the wrong by underestimating the use of this term in British Football. Not at all. I fully accept that as a fact of etymology; words get misused and gradually the mistake becomes a new meaning. Look at “disinterested”. It doesn’t mean uninterested, but the vast majority on OTIB think it does; if enough people go that way the dictionary definition will eventually change. But at the moment, disinterested actually means unbiased. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Brent Posted January 24, 2022 Report Share Posted January 24, 2022 30 minutes ago, cidercity1987 said: In football terms, it means the former In actual fact, it means the latter Does that help? Just because a lot of football people use it doesn’t make it correct 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leveller Posted January 24, 2022 Report Share Posted January 24, 2022 1 minute ago, DaveF said: But we're discussing it in football terms are we not? Are we? The word is commonly used to mean “a bit average “ so when someone described Adomah as a journeyman it caused confusion because to many people that’s what it means. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveF Posted January 24, 2022 Report Share Posted January 24, 2022 Just now, Leveller said: Are we? The word is commonly used to mean “a bit average “ so when someone described Adomah as a journeyman it caused confusion because to many people that’s what it means. I presume so, as we're on a football forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leveller Posted January 24, 2022 Report Share Posted January 24, 2022 9 minutes ago, PHILINFRANCE said: That is probably the closest 'definition' to the real meaning of the word. To understand properly, it is necessary to forget any connection to the word 'journey'; for journeyman has its origins in the French word 'Journée', meaning day. Centuries ago, skilled tradesmen (roofers, brickmasons and the like) would travel throughout France offering their services on a daily basis. They were self-employed and skilled, although generally limited to one particular skill - perhaps this is where the suggestion comes from that (in a football sense) they were of limited ability. Once they had finished the job, they would move on to the next town seeking work on a similar basis, i.e. to be paid for a day's work. So there you are. A skilled man was paid for his services on a daily basis, a 'journée', hence the term 'journéeman', and one can only assume that the travelling from town to town part has led, in football terms, to the term being applied to a player who has moved around supplying his trade to various employers. And it came to mean “a bit average” because a journeyman was a qualified worker who hadn’t progressed to become a master craftsman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Brent Posted January 24, 2022 Report Share Posted January 24, 2022 Just now, DaveF said: I presume so, as we're on a football forum. But we’re all talking the English language Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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