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Journeyman Defintion


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Journeyman Definition  

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Journeyman players by definition have made lots of 'journeys' to different clubs.

This implies they aren't fantastic, because clubs tend to try to hold on to fantastic players if possible. 

But not all run-of-the-mill players are journeymen. Some are content just to stay in one place for a long time as long as the management is happy to field adequate but not terrific players.

If we made a list of BCFC players in that category, we could take all day. 

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Just now, Red-Robbo said:

Journeyman players by definition have made lots of 'journeys' to different clubs.

This implies they aren't fantastic, because clubs tend to try to hold on to fantastic players if possible. 

But not all run-of-the-mill players are journeymen. Some are content just to stay in one place for a long time as long as the management is happy to field adequate but not terrific players.

If we made a list of BCFC players in that category, we could take all day. 

Nope. That’s not where the word comes from. If you want “by definition “ check a dictionary.

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Just now, Leveller said:

Nope. That’s not where the word comes from. If you want “by definition “ check a dictionary.

 

The word came into existence a long time before Association Football did. @PHILINFRANCE has given a full explanation of the origins of the word.

And yes, widely travelled is implied. "In British English, a journeyman is a player who has represented many clubs over his career"  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journeyman_(sports)#Boxing,_kickboxing_and_mixed_martial_arts

In football, accumulating dozens of clubs on your CV suggests that none wanted to retain your services for long, which is where the association with mediocrity comes in. 

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4 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

The word came into existence a long time before Association Football did. @PHILINFRANCE has given a full explanation of the origins of the word.

And yes, widely travelled is implied. "In British English, a journeyman is a player who has represented many clubs over his career"  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journeyman_(sports)#Boxing,_kickboxing_and_mixed_martial_arts

In football, accumulating dozens of clubs on your CV suggests that none wanted to retain your services for long, which is where the association with mediocrity comes in. 

Wikipedia is not a dictionary and that last sentence is anyway entirely out of context with the rest of the article.

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17 minutes ago, Leveller said:

And it came to mean “a bit average” because a journeyman was a qualified worker who hadn’t progressed to become a master craftsman.

Very likely.

As I said in my earlier post, whilst the 'dayworkers' were skilled, they were generally limited to one particular skill - perhaps this is where the suggestion comes from that (in a football sense) they were of limited ability.

So, as you suggest, they were probably 'average' in the sense that, were they any better then, presumably, they would have started their own business closer to home with regular employment and orders, thus avoiding the necessity to travel across France looking for limited, unguaranteed work on a daily basis.

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16 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

Journeyman players by definition have made lots of 'journeys' to different clubs.

This implies they aren't fantastic, because clubs tend to try to hold on to fantastic players if possible. 

But not all run-of-the-mill players are journeymen. Some are content just to stay in one place for a long time as long as the management is happy to field adequate but not terrific players.

If we made a list of BCFC players in that category, we could take all day. 

But your definition isn't logical.

You say journey to lots of clubs because they are average.

If your career path was,

Bristol Rovers 

Non League

League One

Championship 

Premiere League

Europe - Champions League Side

Retire

You would have journeyed to a lot of clubs, and each and every step would be a marked improvement.

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2 minutes ago, Leveller said:

Wikipedia is not a dictionary and that last sentence is anyway entirely out of context with the rest of the article.

 

No, but any sports journalist will tell you that journeyman is used in a different context in US sports (and in boxing everywhere) than it is in team games outside the US.

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1 minute ago, Bristol Rob said:

But your definition isn't logical.

You say journey to lots of clubs because they are average.

If your career path was,

Bristol Rovers 

Non League

League One

Championship 

Premiere League

Europe - Champions League Side

Retire

You would have journeyed to a lot of clubs, and each and every step would be a marked improvement.

 

Bristol Rovers ARE non-league. They are just enjoying a brief period in the EFL. ;)

I did say it is an "association". Not every journeyman player will be crap, which is why it really should only be used to mean "players with a lot of clubs". 

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1 hour ago, Selred said:

But would you call an average player who played for 1 club a journeyman?

A phrase, which I hate, that is often used for this sort of person is “a loyal servant “. 

54 minutes ago, David Brent said:

But we’re all talking the English language 

Have you read some of the posts on the forum? 

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Journeyman - not so good 

Mercenary - higher level player matching expectations for that level, no connection to that club, moves on. 

Adomah isn't actually either of these words 

 

Tevez for example, more of a mercenary 

Morata - somewhere between both 

Andy Carroll - journeyman, just couldn't stay fit, but often worth a punt 

....... 

Thinks its also a bit of a crossover 

British English, more about the clubs at a lower level. 

American English, more about reasons behind the moves and not achieving 

 

 

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10 hours ago, Selred said:

A little debate from the Albert thread, so be good to see what everyone thinks of the word journeyman to mean.

None of those two.

It’s an aging player in the lower leagues, with a poor record who has more clubs than Ernie Els.

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20 hours ago, Leveller said:

Are we? The word is commonly used to mean “a bit average “ so when someone described Adomah as a journeyman it caused confusion because to many people that’s what it means.

Didnt read the thread but not sure the confusion, Albert would be both wouldn't he? Changed clubs every 2-3 years and is pretty average

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1 minute ago, Ronnie Sinclair said:

Chris Martin is referred to as a 'journeyman' in this article today I noticed

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/60097440

And the BBC use the word to highlight that he has played for 9 different clubs, rather than to show that he has limited talents. In a football context that is what the word means.

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1 hour ago, ExiledAjax said:

And the BBC use the word to highlight that he has played for 9 different clubs, rather than to show that he has limited talents. In a football context that is what the word means.

If you do a few searches, you’ll find numerous articles describing how Brian Clough surprisingly turned journeymen into winners. The best example is probably John Robertson  who played only for Forest and Derby. These articles aren’t referring to well travelled players but to unremarkable unheralded “average” players who were transformed.

So the “usual “ meaning of the word is also  used in football journalism.

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1 hour ago, ExiledAjax said:

And the BBC use the word to highlight that he has played for 9 different clubs, rather than to show that he has limited talents. In a football context that is what the word means.

The BBC can be wrong.

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19 minutes ago, Leveller said:

If you do a few searches, you’ll find numerous articles describing how Brian Clough surprisingly turned journeymen into winners. The best example is probably John Robertson  who played only for Forest and Derby. These articles aren’t referring to well travelled players but to unremarkable unheralded “average” players who were transformed.

So the “usual “ meaning of the word is also  used in football journalism.

Which is also correct. How old are those articles about Clough? Is it possible that the use of the word has shifted over time - as happens to many words.

Just now, Pezo said:

The BBC can be wrong.

Of course. It can also be correct.

Ultimately this has brought up an interesting discussion around etymology, language use, the drift of meaning and personal interpretation. 

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29 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Which is also correct. How old are those articles about Clough? Is it possible that the use of the word has shifted over time - as happens to many words.

Of course. It can also be correct.

Ultimately this has brought up an interesting discussion around etymology, language use, the drift of meaning and personal interpretation. 

The ones I’ve looked at range from 2004 (obituary in The Times) to 2018.

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2 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

Ultimately this has brought up an interesting discussion around etymology, language use, the drift of meaning and personal interpretation. 

I want the next debate to be about the term “bang-average”.  It’s often used in a derogatory way, but surely it’s anything but?

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