Goalkeeper Conundrum

[Engvall’s Splinter]

7 hours ago, Fordy62 said:

Theres no conundrum for me. I’d be picking Bentley every game. 

Our good football has coincided with Semenyo’s return to the team and not Max’s inclusion. 

We should be playing our best keeper. 

Totally agree with this. Semenyo has helped us stretch the play whilst also giving the opposition defenders something to think about. Also, Scott and Massengo have started to settle and are in  form. Pring has now found his spot at LCB, whilst others have upped their levels slightly. 
 

Bring Bentley back. Otherwise we may aswell play Joe Williams in goal for his footballing ability. 

[tin]

7 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I know what you’re saying, but I disagree with the words.  Who is the best at helping us get points, would be my words.

To use a crude example, all things being equal,  if we win 4-3 with Max but lose 0-1 with Dan….then you pick Max every game don’t you?

But obviously it isn’t as simple as that.  I do think @Fordy62is right in that I think Antoine’s return is more responsible for our better forward play, with a small part down to Max’s distribution.

The question becomes, if Dan gets picked, does it stifle Antoine / our attacking?

I don’t know.

What I would say is that if Dan could get back to a comparable level with his feet as Max (because his kicking has fallen off a Cliff) then I’d pick Bents every time.

A keeper in todays game is not just about what he does with shots and crosses, it’s important, don’t get me wrong.  But they touch the ball more with their feet than their hands.

It would be good to see Dan back, with a kicking game much improved.

Semenyo’s form has helped, but he wouldn’t be able to get on the ball as often as he is at the moment with Bentley lumping it long at every opportunity IMO.

The stats clearly say we’re more direct with Bentley in goal. I don’t think that’s down to team tactics, more that Bentley’s not as comfortable with the ball at his feet. His positioning to receive the ball this season has been poor and he’s just as, if not more, error-prone. 

If he returns and we revert back to lumping it forward, I think we’ll lose the attacking edge we’ve had in recent weeks simply because the ball will be coming back to us more times than not. 

Bentley’s the better keeper, but we play better football with Max in goal IMO. Ironically, we could do with someone like Maenpaa!

[The Journalist]

9 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Bents distribution and positioning for receiving passes has been awful this season, it’s not just tactics..  It would require a large technical change for him to start passing it out from the back in the manner Max does, regardless of team style changes of late.

Also think Bentley instinctly tries to slow everything down (unless we’re chasing a goal in panic mode), whereas O’Leary’s default is to get us moving forward quickly.

As I posted the other day - I do think Bentley is the better all-round goalkeeper but we play better front-foot football with O’Leary in the team.

Maybe the captaincy hasn’t helped Dan and he feels like he ‘needs’ to be a calming influence.

[BCFCGav]

I feel Bentley will save us more goals being conceded than he'll cost us in attack. I'd need to look back over the last 4 or 5 games but it feels like very in form forwards and powerful hold-up play and passing has been the reason we've been more free-scoring, though I do agree Max's good distribution has contributed to our all round play.

But we're not Man City or Liverpool, our keeper needs to be a stopper first and a ball player second, imo.

[Super]

Still difficult to see what happened on the second goal but the first one is certainly his fault and his kicking last night was dreadful. Bentley at Preston please.

[redsquirrel]

personally i think we need to stop looking at the keeper as the main problem and draw a line under baker,come to an agreement and get someone else in there next to kalas who can compete for half the crosses coming in and get an understanding going with kalas as to who goes for what ball. probably get shot down for this but even if baker does return,whos to say he wont bang his head again next season early doors and leave us a main defender down for another 6 months. a bit more organisation in front of max or bents would make a hell of a difference

[Edgy Red]

8 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I know what you’re saying, but I disagree with the words.  Who is the best at helping us get points, would be my words.

To use a crude example, all things being equal,  if we win 4-3 with Max but lose 0-1 with Dan….then you pick Max every game don’t you?

But obviously it isn’t as simple as that.  I do think @Fordy62is right in that I think Antoine’s return is more responsible for our better forward play, with a small part down to Max’s distribution.

The question becomes, if Dan gets picked, does it stifle Antoine / our attacking?

I don’t know.

What I would say is that if Dan could get back to a comparable level with his feet as Max (because his kicking has fallen off a Cliff) then I’d pick Bents every time.

A keeper in todays game is not just about what he does with shots and crosses, it’s important, don’t get me wrong.  But they touch the ball more with their feet than their hands.

It would be good to see Dan back, with a kicking game much improved.

You make some really good points Dave and the keeper situation sums up where we are at as a team at the present time.

The top teams who play out from the back, and more importantly have the ability to do so, require a keeper who is confident and aware with the ball at their feet.

It appears that we are trying to follow this pattern and therefore Max is the better option, however we are a new emerging team with a physically weak defence and therefore we also need a keeper who can dominate their box and take pressure off that suspect defence, which Bents is better at.

In conclusion, we are at a crossroads, not just with our keeper choice but with our style overall. I am sure Nige will continue on with the new style and that will result in some bumps along the way, but there are definitely some green shoots coming through!

[Carey 6]

23 shots on target since Max has been in goal, we've conceded 14 of them.

[Bodiesaffer]

On being a footballing side Max's distribution is far better IMO.  On the other side of the coin Dan might of saved one those last night, still would of been stuck to his line, again with us not playing out from the back or picking out a teammate,  would we of played so well?

The standard of play since Max has been in the side has been different to when Dans been playing.  Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm sure Max uses both feet well.  Still the same school boy errors conceding silly goals. Nothing has changed there.

AS, has help also in the final 3rd,  he's not, however playing out from the back with confidence, that's Max.  We looked very good last night when the opposition plays football, lumb it into the box football, we can't defend, for some strange reason.  It's a collective not a individual problem with who is picking up who, and yes, a Keeper that comes out and punches attackers head clean off would sort most of the problems on high balls being lumped into the 6 yard box, edge of the D, defenders need to deal with it. IMO

Interesting debate.  I'd give Dan some games now to analyse the situation, dropping Max giving him the reasons why could help him improve into what we require, if he can.  We got what we've got so its Max of Bents.  Although if I was NP would be eying up another Keeper for the next Summer or after if these can't develop the skill set. Centre halfs are what we need right now and for next season. 

I think we will all look back over this season and count up the goals conceded from unforced errors, thinking we could of been in a much stronger league position.  It's fine margins and we are not that far away now. IMO

 

[Fordy62]

29 minutes ago, Carey 6 said:

23 shots on target since Max has been in goal, we've conceded 14 of them.

Ouch. 

[jj77]

It's quite funny what people see as I think Bentley is pretty good with his feet. His range of pass especially over distance is quite good i think.

[sh1t_ref_again]

I think it has been a tactical change when Semenyo started and Martin dropped to stop just hitting long balls and playing out from the back, aided by Max being more comfortable on the ball. For me I would would Bents back in for PNE as he is the better keeper, but dictate the way we are playing is out from the back, if Bents cannot play this system (which I think he can), then he will not be keeping the shirt for long.

[IAmNick]

8 minutes ago, jj77 said:

It's quite funny what people see as I think Bentley is pretty good with his feet. His range of pass especially over distance is quite good i think.

I thought he was good too, as well as his throwing when he first joined - I remember being impressed, although that might have been partially in comparison to Fielding.

Max has been better recently, but I'm not convinced Bentley can't be (or hasn't been in the past) as good or better with his play along the back and distribution.

There have been two big changes - O'Leary starting, and Semenyo starting. We've been playing slightly differently as a result.

I'm currently of the opinion that Semenyo starting is the main reason we're playing differently from the back, rather than O'Leary starting.

That then makes me wonder if it's a coincidence - whether it just happened to be similar timing that Pearson thought Bentley needed a rest and Antoine was ready.

[RedM]

54 minutes ago, Carey 6 said:

23 shots on target since Max has been in goal, we've conceded 14 of them.

That’s interesting. Obviously it is noted by opposing teams as part of their preparation that we have our second choice in goal and that is an instant uplift for them, as it would be for us.

I’ve wanted Max to have his chance, Bentley seemed to need some time out but I was surprised that the keepers were changed for non injury reasons a couple of weeks ago. I have also argued that Max on the whole hadn’t done enough to lose his place, but being there last evening and reviewing the footage since, I am now thinking those were errors that he should not have made. I think he should hand back the gloves to a hopefully rested and refocused Bentley.

Or perhaps the real solution doesn’t have to be either of them?

[1960maaan]

Because there always has to be a scapegoat, This argument is almost inevitable .
There has been a lot of Bentley not good enough earlier in the season, then,  after a few games where we struggle with crosses, bring Bentley back. Others have highlighted the probable reason Max is playing, and TBF I don't think he's done any worse than Bentley would have, except his distribution and passing is much netter.
For ages, I have heard Bentley is shit from some people. Now I am one of his biggest critics, mainly because with his build he should dominate his area, when in reality he's barely better than Frankie was. He doesn't come for crosses, his handling can be suspect and even through balls he hesitates. One on one, brilliant, shot stopping excellent, but I don't think OLeary is far behind. I actually think Max comes off his line more.
Much of the problem is what's in front of them. I've looked through our starting defence and it doesn't help to build a confident strong back line with all the changes we have (had to) made. Our best run is 3 games with no change of player or system in around 30 games, the longest run with the same central defence is 4 games. 

Max is not perfect, but it does feel like you become a better player the less you play. I think with a dominant CB, we improve overnight, and the pressure comes off of the keeper a little.

[CHIPLEY RED]

10 hours ago, The Original OTIB said:

Need a new keeper.

Can't agree and i dont understand why Bentley is now seen as not good enough when we were worried he'd be targeted by a bigger club not long ago.

From memory (and I am of a certain age where memory is not the best) Bentley has saved us many times in the past, he should be our number 1 IMO.

[petehinton]

10 hours ago, Fordy62 said:

Theres no conundrum for me. I’d be picking Bentley every game. 

Our good football has coincided with Semenyo’s return to the team and not Max’s inclusion. 

We should be playing our best keeper. 

this is where I'm at atm too. Put Bentley in the side with the rest of the outfield set up and see how we do and what the difference is.

FWIW, I'm still not entirely convinced that there hasn't been a fallout between Pearson and Bentley tbh. The main positives I see people mention about O'Leary is quicker distribution - is that seriously enough to just drop someone for? If so, then we may as well just bin off coaching players if we're just going to swap people around as a result of one minor difference, rather than have people work on it.

Since Max has come in you could look at probably both goals yesterday, Fulham's second, Millwall's first, and Cardiff's second and say he could/should do better for. Not great considering he's come in for the last 6 games. Obviously there's been good saves in the FA Cup game, quick thinking for our second at Fulham but overall I still don't think he's doing enough for it to be a no brainer that Bentley's out.

[bcfc01]

1 hour ago, Carey 6 said:

23 shots on target since Max has been in goal, we've conceded 14 of them.

Be interesting to see that stat without the Fulham game which is a bit of an outlier.

[tin]

5 minutes ago, bcfc01 said:

Be interesting to see that stat without the Fulham game which is a bit of an outlier.

Fulham scored 6 out of 8 shots on target, so Max has shipped 8 goals from 15 shots on target if the original stat is accurate. 

As Pearson said, set pieces are our Achilles heel at the moment. We need a ball-winning CB in there, Vyner offers nothing in the air. Could Cundy be that man?

Bentley's a saleable asset and cashing in on him and buying a sweeper-keeper better than Max would be our best option if it was doable IMO.

[Slippin cider]

Has to be Bents in at Preston …

[RedM]

Maybe put Bentley back but keep Weimann as Captain. I like Andi as Captain, he can legitimately be in the Refs ear and it seems to suit him, if anything he has upped his game. Bentley will be able to concentrate on his own game.

The biggest problem though is the lack of a settle defence. We miss Baker very much and it doesn’t seem like he will be back as I’m hearing ‘the club doesn’t know what to do with him’.

[Bob Turnip]

8 hours ago, SydneyCity said:

It seems like Bents lost it for discipline reasons

 

Really? What happened?

 

[bcfc01]

11 minutes ago, tin said:

Fulham scored 6 out of 8 shots on target, so Max has shipped 8 goals from 15 shots on target if the original stat is accurate. 

As Pearson said, set pieces are our Achilles heel at the moment. We need a ball-winning CB in there, Vyner offers nothing in the air. Could Cundy be that man?

Bentley's a saleable asset and cashing in on him and buying a sweeper-keeper better than Max would be our best option if it was doable IMO.

Watching the u23 game yesterday, I didn't expect Cundy to play as he did.

I thought he was an old fashioned CB - head it and lump it. But he appears to be very comfortable on the ball and won most challenges, albeit we are talking u23s. Big bloke as well.

Back to Max, I think we are a better team with Max in it despite his obvious flaws and I don't think Bentley would have made a difference last night, he'd be rooted to his line as well. I got really frustrated with Bentley refusing to play the ball out despite players offering themselves for a pass, just lumping it upfield nine times out of ten only for the ball to come back at us. He was also slowing the game down unnecessarily imo by keeping hold of the ball too long.

But if Bentley could have the confidence to play the ball out quickly, I'd have him in the team.

 

[GrahamC]

2 minutes ago, Bob Turnip said:

 

Really? What happened?

 

That’s just wild speculation, based on Pearson’s comment about following the rules.

I think the change was actually made solely around his distribution.

[Henry]

10 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I know what you’re saying, but I disagree with the words.  Who is the best at helping us get points, would be my words.

I’d go with that, but that starts with keeping clean sheets or conceding less.

To use a crude example, all things being equal,  if we win 4-3 with Max but lose 0-1 with Dan….then you pick Max every game don’t you?

Not really. It depends what part the keeper has played in those goals. If Max has thrown 3 into his net (or he scores a hat trick!) then it has an effect. I’d lean towards Bentley as it’s more like a keeper has had an direct impact of the team conceding 3 than the team scoring 4.

But obviously it isn’t as simple as that.  I do think @Fordy62is right in that I think Antoine’s return is more responsible for our better forward play, with a small part down to Max’s distribution.

The question becomes, if Dan gets picked, does it stifle Antoine / our attacking?

I don’t know.

What I would say is that if Dan could get back to a comparable level with his feet as Max (because his kicking has fallen off a Cliff) then I’d pick Bents every time.

A keeper in todays game is not just about what he does with shots and crosses, it’s important, don’t get me wrong.  But they touch the ball more with their feet than their hands.

It would be good to see Dan back, with a kicking game much improved.

I think Bentley needs to come back, I’m confident that Bentley would have stop some of these goals that Max has conceded. Watching the Cardiff highlights a couple days later you realise we conceded two terrible goals that could have cost us.

[Monkeh]

Bentley for me, max has been unconvincing in the last couple of games 

[Robin101]

Bentley inspires so much more confidence, in my opinion. 

Frankly, though, we're not going up, we're not going down. If we think it's beneficial to be giving O'Leary the experience and game time to the end of the season - so be it. 

[the1stknowle]

12 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Bents distribution and positioning for receiving passes has been awful this season, it’s not just tactics..  It would require a large technical change for him to start passing it out from the back in the manner Max does, regardless of team style changes of late.

Yeah - exactly this. The idea that the change in our pattern of play has just coincidentally happened at same time as Max came in seems unlikely at best.

I also think, just from a goalkeeping point of view, the Max pile on over last 12 hours has been extreme. It's hardly like we were solid as a rock with Bents in goal and none of these 'errors' being attributed to Max are clear and obvious. 

[Clutton Caveman]

12 hours ago, Dynamite Red said:

Really unsure of the way forward with our Goalkeeper selection. We play as a team much better with O'Leary playing out from the back but for me in every other key attribute he is an inferior keeper to Bentley. 

Do we persevere with Max and hope he can grow into the position and become more dominant and provide that confidence, at the moment he reminds me a bit of a superior Steve Phillips with crosses and his general presence, or do you bring back the safe and sure Bentley but take that edge away from our game playing out from the back.

I really can't decide, even to the point that I wonder if we should look for a better ball playing keeper in the Summer and move Bentley on if we can. 

I would think that it is not beyond the realms of possibility to work everyday with Bentley on coming of his line for crosses and having the confidence to play out from the back. At the same time working with O'Leary to improve his positioning and concentration. 

Clearly somebody has improved Antoine so why do the same with these 2

[Super]

Give me a keeper that can save shots.