Goalkeeper Conundrum

[SydneyCity]

1 hour ago, Bob Turnip said:

 

Really? What happened?

 

Heavy emphasis on “seems” - and certainly not ITK - but at the time Nige said something along the lines of “the rules of the club have to apply to all players”.

[BTRFTG]

Everybody blaming the keepers without reference to the utter inability of our centre halfs (or pretty much the rest of the squad,) to win headers in the box.

[CheddarReds]

2 hours ago, Carey 6 said:

23 shots on target since Max has been in goal, we've conceded 14 of them.

this stat doesn't really tell us a lot on it's own though. 

Yesterday we conceded two goals from set pieces from less than 6 yards out. Similarly, Cardiff's first, Mitrovic's headers, Millwall's two goals are all ones where the scorer has had a good opportunity and you can't expect O'Leary to save them. 

This is where looking at the video and xG of the chances the opposition have scored from is useful. A lot of the goals we've conceded Max shouldn't be expected to save. However, watching them back it's obvious as a defensive unit we can't keep giving away soft goals from set pieces and mistakes in and around our box. So I'm not convinced having Bentley in goal changes that statistic much either way. 

[Roger Red Hat]

13 hours ago, Dynamite Red said:

I wonder if we should look for a better ball playing keeper in the Summer and move Bentley on if we can. 

My thoughts exactly. 

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, jj77 said:

It's quite funny what people see as I think Bentley is pretty good with his feet. His range of pass especially over distance is quite good i think.

“Is”….becomes “was”.  It’s gone downhill including last season.  I think it’s a confidence and technical issue.

His starting position is too deep generally, not just back passes either.  He doesn’t play as a sweeper keeper at all.  It is rare to see him come out of the box to hoof one clear (Sam Johnstone is an example of one that does).

But the biggest fault, is that when balls are played back to him, he actually retreats before kicking it.  A ball that he could come and meet, take a touch and then decide where to play it (like Max has been doing), he actually retreats back towards his goal line before running forward to kick it.  The ball has often lost its pace, but it also means an attacker is bearing down on him too.  He often cuts under it / slicing it, and we see opponents running onto a high ball 40-45 yards out.  If he kicks it from 18 yards he clears their midfield.

He needs to get over this….he didn’t use to do this.

2 hours ago, sh1t_ref_again said:

I think it has been a tactical change when Semenyo started and Martin dropped to stop just hitting long balls and playing out from the back, aided by Max being more comfortable on the ball. For me I would would Bents back in for PNE as he is the better keeper, but dictate the way we are playing is out from the back, if Bents cannot play this system (which I think he can), then he will not be keeping the shirt for long.

Nailed it.  It’s what Bents should’ve been working on in training.

[Davefevs]

Just now, Roger Red Hat said:

My thoughts exactly. 

Brad Collins, when Barnsley get relegated.  Will have a year left on his contract.

[Monkeh]

28 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Brad Collins, when Barnsley get relegated.  Will have a year left on his contract.

Bristol city when Barnsley gets relegated will not have the funds to invest in a new keeper while other areas of the pitch remain a higher prioity

[Roger Red Hat]

2 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

Bristol city when Barnsley gets relegated will not have the funds to invest in a new keeper while other areas of the pitch remain a higher prioity

I would suggest a good, consistent, commanding keeper is crucial.

[Monkeh]

1 minute ago, Roger Red Hat said:

I would suggest a good, consistent, commanding keeper is crucial.

But it's not as important as a defensive midfielder a commanding centre back and a left back,

It's not a priority 

[Davefevs]

8 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

Bristol city when Barnsley gets relegated will not have the funds to invest in a new keeper while other areas of the pitch remain a higher prioity

What I’m saying is that if you (Nige) thinks that he needs a different keeper, he sells Bentley to bring in someone new, I’m not suggesting having 3, more one out, one in.

[Monkeh]

Just now, Davefevs said:

What I’m saying is that if you (Nige) thinks that he needs a different keeper, he sells Bentley to bring in someone new, I’m not suggesting having 3, more one out, one in.

Lots of it's there, why sell a proven championship keeper who on form is one of the best in the division simply because he's out of form,

It makes no sense and isn't logical,

The keeper isn't the problem, the ability to win headers I the 6 yard box and cut out countless needless crosses into the box is the problem,

The england version Pickford would look below average with this defense

[Roger Red Hat]

9 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

But it's not as important as a defensive midfielder a commanding centre back and a left back,

It's not a priority 

That's your opinion, it's not mine.  Bentley makes some amazing saves, but his basic game leaves something to be desired. If NM was still here, I'd have had him in over Bentley every time, due to his basic game being superior.

[DaveInSA]

12 hours ago, Dynamite Red said:

Really unsure of the way forward with our Goalkeeper selection. We play as a team much better with O'Leary playing out from the back but for me in every other key attribute he is an inferior keeper to Bentley. 

Do we persevere with Max and hope he can grow into the position and become more dominant and provide that confidence, at the moment he reminds me a bit of a superior Steve Phillips with crosses and his general presence, or do you bring back the safe and sure Bentley but take that edge away from our game playing out from the back.

I really can't decide, even to the point that I wonder if we should look for a better ball playing keeper in the Summer and move Bentley on if we can. 

Flapper Phillips. I’d forgotten all about him

[Numero Uno]

I think Bentley will be back in on Saturday. For starters coaches in this league aren't daft and what do you think Preston will be doing on Saturday if O'Leary is in goal? All clubs in this league have analysts who would have gone through the last five or six matches of their upcoming opponents and, unfortunately, will have noticed a recurring theme with us defensively, Preston will be no different.

[Davefevs]

29 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

Lots of it's there, why sell a proven championship keeper who on form is one of the best in the division simply because he's out of form,

It makes no sense and isn't logical,

The keeper isn't the problem, the ability to win headers I the 6 yard box and cut out countless needless crosses into the box is the problem,

The england version Pickford would look below average with this defense

It is a problem if it’s not form that’s the issue, but an incapability to be part of a passing game!

We will have to wait and see.

FWIW, I can see Bentley starting on Saturday, and we can assess whether he’s been working on his distribution.

[ExiledAjax]

5 hours ago, Carey 6 said:

23 shots on target since Max has been in goal, we've conceded 14 of them.

That first number is the bigger problem. Most teams will struggle when allowing the opposition nearly 5 shots on target per game.

We've allowed the 5th highest number of shots on target in the division, and we're only 5 behind Hull who are 3rd worst.

Defend better, give your goalies less work to do and less of a chance of making a mistake.

Stop the shots.

Edited January 26, 2022 by ExiledAjax

[old_eastender]

11 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

I think Bentley will be back in on Saturday. For starters coaches in this league aren't daft and what do you think Preston will be doing on Saturday if O'Leary is in goal? All clubs in this league have analysts who would have gone through the last five or six matches of their upcoming opponents and, unfortunately, will have noticed a recurring theme with us defensively, Preston will be no different.

Exactly this, we have to bring in Bentley as Max's reluctance to come off the line will result in them delivering crosses into the 6 yard box at every opportunity. Last night's 2 goals should both have been claimed by the keeper, however poor the defenders were. 

[ExiledAjax]

1 hour ago, CheddarReds said:

this stat doesn't really tell us a lot on it's own though. 

Yesterday we conceded two goals from set pieces from less than 6 yards out. Similarly, Cardiff's first, Mitrovic's headers, Millwall's two goals are all ones where the scorer has had a good opportunity and you can't expect O'Leary to save them. 

This is where looking at the video and xG of the chances the opposition have scored from is useful. A lot of the goals we've conceded Max shouldn't be expected to save. However, watching them back it's obvious as a defensive unit we can't keep giving away soft goals from set pieces and mistakes in and around our box. So I'm not convinced having Bentley in goal changes that statistic much either way. 

Max has only played 5 games this season. It's really too small a sample size yo use xGA v GA reliably. He was also in net for the game against the most potential attacking team that we've seen at our level for decades: Fulham in full flight. That game skews his stats horribly.

Stats might tell us what to discuss, amd are useful to analyse the whole team across the whole season. However given the sample size I'm reticent to use them to "prove" anything regarding Bentley v Max 

[Maltshoveller]

2 hours ago, Super said:

Give me a keeper that can save shots. 

That's the basics

Give me a keeper who can also take crosses and commands his box 

[Malago]

Something seems to have been forgotten in this debate and that’s Bentley is also pretty useless at coming off his line and “commanding” his box.

[Lack of Action Man]

On 22/01/2022 at 18:28, OddBallJim said:

I’m feeling I’m in the minority here, but I’m not convinced on him… yet. 
 

Their second goal looked saveable at the time, and having watched the footage back I would hope he could have done a little better. The ball seems to take an eternity to go in. He seems to also be a bit rooted to his line when crosses come in. 
 

Flip side of it is that he does look very comfortable with the ball at his feet, and can drill the ball with seemingly far more accuracy than Bentley. Plus he has a good long accurate throw out as well. This seems to suit how we want to play better than Bentley’s slow delivery and inevitable long high punt. 
 

In summary… I’m not sure who I’d pick moving forwards (unless Bentley is sold). But certainly don’t think it’s as easy as saying one is clearly better than the other when they each have merits and weaknesses. 

Funny OP has brought the GK dilemma up as I started a similar thread after the Cardiff match.

Having seen the footage from Luton back again, I’m very disappointed with MOL for both goals. He’s rooted to his line and slow to react. Those who are drawing comparisons with Phillips are not far wide of the mark.

As I’ve alluded to before, this whole scenario reminds me of when Basso fell out of favour and we went with Henderson/Gerken in nets for a bit. Lots of posters at the time claiming we would be fine purely based on reserve/U23 matches - but in actuality the gulf in class between them was patently obvious when it came to 3pm on a Saturday. The same now is appearing (in my opinion) between MOL and Bentley. 
 

Bentley should be restored to the starting XI from the next match for me. 

 

 

[Roger Red Hat]

25 minutes ago, old_eastender said:

Exactly this, we have to bring in Bentley as Max's reluctance to come off the line will result in them delivering crosses into the 6 yard box at every opportunity. Last night's 2 goals should both have been claimed by the keeper, however poor the defenders were. 

You are assuming Bentley would have claimed them. In my book Bentley is also suspect at claiming crosses.

[The Original OTIB]

Just now, Roger Red Hat said:

You are assuming Bentley would have claimed them. In my book Bentley is also suspect at claiming crosses.

Agreed.

[Roger Red Hat]

When are Bentley and Max OOC?

[CheddarReds]

34 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Max has only played 5 games this season. It's really too small a sample size yo use xGA v GA reliably. He was also in net for the game against the most potential attacking team that we've seen at our level for decades: Fulham in full flight. That game skews his stats horribly.

Stats might tell us what to discuss, amd are useful to analyse the whole team across the whole season. However given the sample size I'm reticent to use them to "prove" anything regarding Bentley v Max 

Shot for shot potentially they can be useful which was my point but I agree. I'm not advocating the use of them specifically in this scenario, more explaining how, like you have, that many of the goals Max has conceded aren't necessarily down to poor shot stopping ability and that the stat presented on it's own doesn't tell the full story. Same with a small sample of xG.

Edited January 26, 2022 by CheddarReds

[Monkeh]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

It is a problem if it’s not form that’s the issue, but an incapability to be part of a passing game!

We will have to wait and see.

FWIW, I can see Bentley starting on Saturday, and we can assess whether he’s been working on his distribution.

A keepers job isn't to play 40 yard balls to feet, it's to keep the ball out if the net

Edited January 26, 2022 by Monkeh

[LondonBristolian]

16 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

A keepers job isn't to play 40 yard balls to feet, it's to keep the ball out if the net

I seriously recommend reading Jonathan Wilson's superb book the Outsider: A History of the Goalkeeper. It's a really interesting book but it talks about how the goalkeeper role has evolved in recent seasons to be come an eleventh outfield player in some respects. For example, Guardiola's tactics are utterly dependent on a goalkeeper who can play with his feet. Barcelona's Tika Taka system, or Man CIty's system now would not function with just a shotstopper. 

Similarly we've seen in recent weeks that Pearson has made a change because Bristol City could not play - or ironically attack - the way Pearson wants us to with Bentley in goal. Ultimately what a goalkeeper is doing with his feet and how he does it has a massive impact on how the defence position themselves, how deep the defensive line needs to be and the entire shape of the team. Thirty or forty years ago most would have agreed that a goalkeeper's job was to keep the ball out and nothing more but it's just not true of the game today. 

Edited January 26, 2022 by LondonBristolian

[Red-Robbo]

I don't actually think Max's kicking is any better than Dan's.  It's just he will usually try to get the ball recycled and back in play quicker: A short kick or a decent throw to a player in space. When O'Leary tries a longer kick to a player on the touchline, it's just as likely to go out of play as when Bents does.

The quick release to allow a rapid break out of defence is an aspect of the game when MOL is in goal that Bentley could learn from. 

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Malago said:

Something seems to have been forgotten in this debate and that’s Bentley is also pretty useless at coming off his line and “commanding” his box.

Yep, I wondered where this commanding GK had come from!!!

1 hour ago, Roger Red Hat said:

You are assuming Bentley would have claimed them. In my book Bentley is also suspect at claiming crosses.

See above too

1 hour ago, Monkeh said:

A keepers job isn't to play 40 yard balls to feet, it's to keep the ball out if the net

His role is multi-faceted.  I used a crude example in this post or another.  Would you rather win 4-3 or lose 0-1?

Its obviously not as simple as that, but it is certainly not as simple as your statement either.  They need to be able to do what the tram system needs them to do.  Currently that seems to be the need to play out from the back as London Bristolian states below in his second paragraph.

1 hour ago, LondonBristolian said:

I seriously recommend reading Jonathan Wilson's superb book the Outsider: A History of the Goalkeeper. It's a really interesting book but it talks about how the goalkeeper role has evolved in recent seasons to be come an eleventh outfield player in some respects. For example, Guardiola's tactics are utterly dependent on a goalkeeper who can play with his feet. Barcelona's Tika Taka system, or Man CIty's system now would not function with just a shotstopper. 

Similarly we've seen in recent weeks that Pearson has made a change because Bristol City could not play - or ironically attack - the way Pearson wants us to with Bentley in goal. Ultimately what a goalkeeper is doing with his feet and how he does it has a massive impact on how the defence position themselves, how deep the defensive line needs to be and the entire shape of the team. Thirty or forty years ago most would have agreed that a goalkeeper's job was to keep the ball out and nothing more but it's just not true of the game today. 

Spot on.

55 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

I don't actually think Max's kicking is any better than Dan's.  It's just he will usually try to get the ball recycled and back in play quicker: A short kick or a decent throw to a player in space. When O'Leary tries a longer kick to a player on the touchline, it's just as likely to go out of play as when Bents does.

The quick release to allow a rapid break out of defence is an aspect of the game when MOL is in goal that Bentley could learn from. 

When Max first came in for Dan, I posted that most fans view of Bentley was:

good / great shot stopper, poor on crosses, doesn’t command his area, kicking was good but now not very good.

I asked how many would describe Max, my view was:

good shot stopper, poor on crosses, doesn’t command his area, kicking ok

So, not very different.

What you’ve rightly called out is that although his kicking isn’t necessarily better (3 scuffed, low, clearances last night), he does try to move the ball quickly.  I’d add he’s more decisive, and his starting position for dealing with both through balls (to play sweeper keeper) and passes back from his defenders had been an upgrade on Bents / Bents form this season).

Thats why he’s got his chance.

The decision becomes:

• has Max cost us goals that Nige thinks Bents would’ve saved
• If yes, are they outweighed by what it’s given us in terms of attacking system, breaking the press, etc, etc
• has Dan shown a willingness to work on his weaknesses

if the right answers to those are given, Dan needs to come back in.  If not, Max stays in.

I don’t think there’s much between them overall currently.  If Bents can distribute like Max has done, like he used to in his first season, then Bents is the clear no1.

[Roger Red Hat]

4 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Yep, I wondered where this commanding GK had come from!!!

See above too

His role is multi-faceted.  I used a crude example in this post or another.  Would you rather win 4-3 or lose 0-1?

Its obviously not as simple as that, but it is certainly not as simple as your statement either.  They need to be able to do what the tram system needs them to do.  Currently that seems to be the need to play out from the back as London Bristolian states below in his second paragraph.

Spot on.

When Max first came in for Dan, I posted that most fans view of Bentley was:

good / great shot stopper, poor on crosses, doesn’t command his area, kicking was good but now not very good.

I asked how many would describe Max, my view was:

good shot stopper, poor on crosses, doesn’t command his area, kicking ok

So, not very different.

What you’ve rightly called out is that although his kicking isn’t necessarily better (3 scuffed, low, clearances last night), he does try to move the ball quickly.  I’d add he’s more decisive, and his starting position for dealing with both through balls (to play sweeper keeper) and passes back from his defenders had been an upgrade on Bents / Bents form this season).

Thats why he’s got his chance.

The decision becomes:

• has Max cost us goals that Nige thinks Bents would’ve saved
• If yes, are they outweighed by what it’s given us in terms of attacking system, breaking the press, etc, etc
• has Dan shown a willingness to work on his weaknesses

if the right answers to those are given, Dan needs to come back in.  If not, Max stays in.

I don’t think there’s much between them overall currently.  If Bents can distribute like Max has done, like he used to in his first season, then Bents is the clear no1.

As always, good analysis Dave. Why has Bentley not been able to distribute like Max? Is he being lazy in his application to his work? I have to say I'm not convinced by Bentley and I think he gets a lot of leeway because of his 'worldies', although I'm not convinced that a lot of them don't come from his all round play.  With Max, I'd like to think, buy now, he'd have shown why he should be a first team keeper. I like him but is he too comfortable being an occasional No 1? I also think it should be now or never for him. If not I'm happy for him and Bentley to be moved on in the summer.