Vyner - scapegoated

[DaveF]

5 minutes ago, WolfOfWestStreet said:

Yeah no doubt, he a capable player at league one/scottish premier level. Nice lad as well by all accounts.

We need better than Zac Vyners unfortunately and we can't afford them which is a problem. 

We have better than Zak though. Start of the season he was behind Kalas, Atkinson and Baker. Now he's behind Kalas, Pring, Klose, Atkinson and Baker in an ideal world. 

I don't think Pearson intended Vyner to play so much... We've had a lot of injuries which meant he's played far more ever intended which has exposed his limitations.

[Super]

He could not play and people would blame him. Laughable people are blaming him today.

[Finley_Smith10]

He’s just not good enough unfortunately and at fault for a lot of goals 

[Fordy62]

2 minutes ago, Super said:

He could not play and people would blame him. Laughable people are blaming him today.

Have you watched the replay? Definitely not good enough. 

[cheese]

46 minutes ago, formerly known as ivan said:

Do you not think when the masses all think the same then maybe it might be right?

Lots of people vote Tory.

[Davefevs]

36 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

He’s a good squad player as he can cover many positions, albeit not very well. If he is our 5th choice centre back, 2nd choice right back and 6th choice midfielder then that’s fine.  However, if he needs to start more than say 15 games in a season then we have a problem 

That’s kind of how I look at things.  We can’t afford to have players like Tomas Kalas across each defensive position, we are having to “make do”, being frugal with our ongoings.  That means you have to make do, have a few sub-optimal players, squad players if you like.

Zak has been a bit unfortunate.  Started the season at RB hopefully looking to make that “his position”.  I actually thought he did fine there, but a change of system has meant he’s had to play in the back three.  I don’t think he’s physical enough to play there, and I don’t see him overcoming that.  Like Taylor Moore, neither appear to have that in their locker…and you need it to play centre-back at Champ level.

He offers us versatility too.  He offers that versatility on the cheap too.

If we can improve on him, then fine (within the financial constraints)…just like any player, but we are so keen to label a player “league one”, Zak has now played 100 games at this level.  He may not be the best player in our squad, but posters are keen to pick up any mistake, very few credit him when he does good things.

 

Also, let’s not forget most teams in our division have players that make up the squad who aren’t as good as the first choice eleven, but without them, you’re a bit stuffed when there are injuries.

Edited January 29, 2022 by Davefevs

[WolfOfWestStreet]

18 minutes ago, DaveF said:

We have better than Zak though. Start of the season he was behind Kalas, Atkinson and Baker. Now he's behind Kalas, Pring, Klose, Atkinson and Baker in an ideal world. 

I don't think Pearson intended Vyner to play so much... We've had a lot of injuries which meant he's played far more ever intended which has exposed his limitations.

Fair.

[Mad Cyril]

His marking for their first goal was frankly embarrassing.

[And Its Smith]

17 minutes ago, Mad Cyril said:

His marking for their first goal was frankly embarrassing.

Yeah he was 50 yards away from the guy, sat down. Disgrace 

[2015]

Look, Vyner could be a good player at this level, but he makes far too many basic mistakes as a defender to make it. Iron them out and he becomes a good Championship defender.

My concern is he isn't learning from them and we are losing points because of this. I don't think he has been scapegoated, at all. He was highly rated last season by many, it's just as a team we have improved and he has stood still during this time.

[City1970]

From what I see, Vyner is not good enough for the championship.

[joe jordans teeth]

2 hours ago, RedNachos said:

Already got masses of comments saying "he's not good enough" and the usual bollocks of "league one at best". For the life of me I can't fathom why our fanbase is so bloody keen to write him off.  Last season he took masses of responsibility playing as a sweeper in central midfield, consistently picking passes and allowing a pathway from defence to midfield, and then a transition to attack. Something that ridiculous signings like Lansbury and Brunt didn't do, but no it was our right/centre back who'd only played half a season of Championship football.  This season, he's played in patches, mostly in 3 and done (for me at least) majoritativilley well, but is a scapegoat when we concede a high quality late goal, when the midfield are nowhere to be seen. I'm not saying he's the messiah, but if you didn't know financially we're in deep shit, and can't go out buying a £5m replacement, who, yeah, would probably be an upgrade on Zak, but we don't have these sort of options, so I'm asking why are we rushing to get him out the picture, its not like we're brimming full of better options. Against Luton I'd argue he was our best player, and I really like him in a 3, and even midfield. Again he's not the messiah, but get some perspective please instead of saying you'd never like to see him in a city shirt again.                                         

It’s quite simple our goal under big Nige is to get promotion,with his lack of funds  we are stuck with Vyner and he wouldn’t be “scapegoated” if he knew how to bloody defend,personally I think he’s had a easy ride because he’s one of ours 

[GrahamC]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

That’s kind of how I look at things.  We can’t afford to have players like Tomas Kalas across each defensive position, we are having to “make do”, being frugal with our ongoings.  That means you have to make do, have a few sub-optimal players, squad players if you like.

Zak has been a bit unfortunate.  Started the season at RB hopefully looking to make that “his position”.  I actually thought he did fine there, but a change of system has meant he’s had to play in the back three.  I don’t think he’s physical enough to play there, and I don’t see him overcoming that.  Like Taylor Moore, neither appear to have that in their locker…and you need it to play centre-back at Champ level.

He offers us versatility too.  He offers that versatility on the cheap too.

If we can improve on him, then fine (within the financial constraints)…just like any player, but we are so keen to label a player “league one”, Zak has now played 100 games at this level.  He may not be the best player in our squad, but posters are keen to pick up any mistake, very few credit him when he does good things.

 

Also, let’s not forget most teams in our division have players that make up the squad who aren’t as good as the first choice eleven, but without them, you’re a bit stuffed when there are injuries.

Really good post.

I have looked at the second goal again, a very good finish & I’m not sure he does too much different for it than Kalas myself, but some are borderline obsessive about him at the moment.

[TBW]

Not a Championship centre back. That's all there is to it.

[tin]

I don’t think Vyner’s a scapegoat; he’s an academy lad that most of us want to succeed. I’ve long been of the opinion that he ain’t up it at this level, but I don’t think he was at fault yesterday (I wasn’t there, though, and have only seen the highlights).

His problems are that he doesn’t excel in any position and most of the mistakes he makes (ball watching/weak in the air, being too soft, switching off, not getting close enough etc) lead to goals. Those have been going on for two seasons or more now and he generally doesn’t show any signs of improving in those areas, even if he does improve in other areas. 

Edited January 30, 2022 by tin

[bexhill reds]

8 hours ago, GrahamC said:

Really good post.

I have looked at the second goal again, a very good finish & I’m not sure he does too much different for it than Kalas myself, but some are borderline obsessive about him at the moment.

There’s a really “good” clip on here filmed from the PNE stand which shows clearly what went on, apart from an outrageous amount of space down our left for Preston to come down the pitch, the clip shows that Vyner was the closest player to the scorer, and then simply watches the ball with absolutely no idea where the player had gone, If he had actually looked around then he could have denied the space for the volley. He was the nearest player to the scorer. How many goals have we conceded because he’s lost his player in the box this season. I reckon we concede a goal a game due to a mistake that Zak makes. I’d like to think there is a player in there, but not seemingly at this level.

[Sandhurst Red]

12 hours ago, RedNachos said:

Already got masses of comments saying "he's not good enough" and the usual bollocks of "league one at best". For the life of me I can't fathom why our fanbase is so bloody keen to write him off.  Last season he took masses of responsibility playing as a sweeper in central midfield, consistently picking passes and allowing a pathway from defence to midfield, and then a transition to attack. Something that ridiculous signings like Lansbury and Brunt didn't do, but no it was our right/centre back who'd only played half a season of Championship football.  This season, he's played in patches, mostly in 3 and done (for me at least) majoritativilley well, but is a scapegoat when we concede a high quality late goal, when the midfield are nowhere to be seen. I'm not saying he's the messiah, but if you didn't know financially we're in deep shit, and can't go out buying a £5m replacement, who, yeah, would probably be an upgrade on Zak, but we don't have these sort of options, so I'm asking why are we rushing to get him out the picture, its not like we're brimming full of better options. Against Luton I'd argue he was our best player, and I really like him in a 3, and even midfield. Again he's not the messiah, but get some perspective please instead of saying you'd never like to see him in a city shirt again.                                         

Sorry I could not disagree anymore.

Pearson has given Vyner ample opportunities to prove himself and he continually fails to take them. A manager has to trust his defenders to do their job and pick up their man from crosses in particular. Yet again (and with fresh legs, having come on as a sub) Vyner has not just been beaten to the ball, he's nowhere near him and the striker has just drifted 3 yards from him with a basic move.

Sorry, no scapegoat, but his mistakes are getting highlighted and he is costing the team and his teammates points week in, week out.

I'd rather play Cundy for the rest of the season and give him some experience as the trust instilled in Vyner just doesn't pay off - and he needs to go to help himself, and for us to be serious about achieving more. I've not even mentioned his passing which is worthy of a thread on it's own by the way.... 

[Kibs]

11 hours ago, Davefevs said:

That’s kind of how I look at things.  We can’t afford to have players like Tomas Kalas across each defensive position, we are having to “make do”, being frugal with our ongoings.  That means you have to make do, have a few sub-optimal players, squad players if you like.

Zak has been a bit unfortunate.  Started the season at RB hopefully looking to make that “his position”.  I actually thought he did fine there, but a change of system has meant he’s had to play in the back three.  I don’t think he’s physical enough to play there, and I don’t see him overcoming that.  Like Taylor Moore, neither appear to have that in their locker…and you need it to play centre-back at Champ level.

He offers us versatility too.  He offers that versatility on the cheap too.

If we can improve on him, then fine (within the financial constraints)…just like any player, but we are so keen to label a player “league one”, Zak has now played 100 games at this level.  He may not be the best player in our squad, but posters are keen to pick up any mistake, very few credit him when he does good things.

 

Also, let’s not forget most teams in our division have players that make up the squad who aren’t as good as the first choice eleven, but without them, you’re a bit stuffed when there are injuries.

What’s frustrating is that I think he has all of the physical and technical attributes to be really good. 

Concentration and lack of confidence are what kills him. Wish he would believe in himself abit more.

[The Bard]

13 hours ago, formerly known as ivan said:

Do you not think when the masses all think the same then maybe it might be right?

1. The masses don't all think the same 

2. The masses used to (mostly) think that witch bobbing showed if a woman was a witch.  Were they right?

[LondonBristolian]

14 hours ago, WolfOfWestStreet said:

Don't be a ****, you know what I'm getting at. There will be free agents or low cost options better than Zac Vyner ..  I mean what the **** are we paying that cretin Danny Simpson for?

You've kind of proved yourself wrong in your own post. We're paying Danny Simpson because he's who we could afford. I'm not claiming Vyner is brilliant but - if there were free agents or low cost options better than our players - we'd be getting them in. In the summer we released Baker, assessed the free agents that were out there, and decided renegotiating with Baker was a better option than any of the free signings we could make.

Vyner is not going to be on a huge salary and I'd suggest the out of contract cheaper replacements don't actually exist...

[bexhill reds]

29 minutes ago, Tafkarmlf said:

Weird thread but ok. 

He did well yesterday and was unfortunate that his low cross didnt get more from it. 

Not sure how he's supposed to defend a 'worldy' the clue is in the finish. 

I think he comes in for too much stick and does what is asked, he's basically a younger version of Tommy Rowe and has massive versatility on his side. Useful to have with a small squad and can play in about 12 trillion different positions. 

You'd like to think he's learn to actually look around him to see what is going on rather than being caught watching the ball again. No doubting the Preston player took his chance well, but if Zak had actually seen what he was doing and closed him down, as he was the closest player and had tracked him back, he would have little room for that type of shot. Players make mistakes, but this type of switch off seems to be a reoccuring thing as far as Vyner is concerned...

 

[Sandhurst Red]

9 minutes ago, bexhill reds said:

You'd like to think he's learn to actually look around him to see what is going on rather than being caught watching the ball again. No doubting the Preston player took his chance well, but if Zak had actually seen what he was doing and closed him down, as he was the closest player and had tracked him back, he would have little room for that type of shot. Players make mistakes, but this type of switch off seems to be a reoccurring thing as far as Vyner is concerned...

 

Exactly this. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again.

A quick look back over the last 12 games of the goals we have conceded.

How many have come from Vyner's inability to beat his man at a cross. I've counted at least 7. 

[mozo]

If someone was particularly cruel it would be easy to put together a comprehensive showreel of Vyner looking weak on opposition goals. He doesn't seem to have the mentality that he will put the striker under pressure and win the battle. He's weak at the most important moments and goals keep coming when he should do better. Again and again.

[Lew-T]

He has improved but his concentration let’s him down in key moments. I also don’t think he’s mean enough to be a CB, if that makes sense. 

 

[Davefevs]

56 minutes ago, Lew-T said:

He has improved but his concentration let’s him down in key moments. I also don’t think he’s mean enough to be a CB, if that makes sense. 

 

Totally agree.

[Davefevs]

Finally got around to watching some highlights.

Is it just me then that thinks Riis is Kalas’s man….he isn’t Vyner’s.  Vyner is still running back.  Klose has Ched Evans, Kalas has Jakobsen.  He isn’t Zak’s is he (yellow).

 

Kalas doesn’t pass him on. He checks (over his left shoulder) where he is, and then loses him. Vyner is still trying to get back.

 

I honestly can’t see how this can be Zak’s fault…unless you base it purely on their positions when Riis volleys home.  If you do that, then I think that is hugely unfair on Zak…because he was never in a position to be marking Riis until the cross is on his way.

[KegCity]

He's regularly at fault for the goals we concede. If he can improve on his distribution, marking, one on one defending, aerial prowess and positioning then he'll be up to standard, but that's a big ask.

[mozo]

22 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Finally got around to watching some highlights.

Is it just me then that thinks Riis is Kalas’s man….he isn’t Vyner’s.  Vyner is still running back.  Klose has Ched Evans, Kalas has Jakobsen.  He isn’t Zak’s is he (yellow).

 

Kalas doesn’t pass him on. He checks (over his left shoulder) where he is, and then loses him. Vyner is still trying to get back.

 

I honestly can’t see how this can be Zak’s fault…unless you base it purely on their positions when Riis volleys home.  If you do that, then I think that is hugely unfair on Zak…because he was never in a position to be marking Riis until the cross is on his way.

It definitely wasn't his man and Kalas for all his strengths has a habit of loose marking.

Regards Vyner, the question is, when the ball comes in could he spot the danger and attack the ball instead of doing a little pirouette? He's probably the closest to the man in the end and seems to have a moment in which to decide.

[IAmNick]

25 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Finally got around to watching some highlights.

Is it just me then that thinks Riis is Kalas’s man….he isn’t Vyner’s.  Vyner is still running back.  Klose has Ched Evans, Kalas has Jakobsen.  He isn’t Zak’s is he (yellow).

 

Kalas doesn’t pass him on. He checks (over his left shoulder) where he is, and then loses him. Vyner is still trying to get back.

 

I honestly can’t see how this can be Zak’s fault…unless you base it purely on their positions when Riis volleys home.  If you do that, then I think that is hugely unfair on Zak…because he was never in a position to be marking Riis until the cross is on his way.

Think this is the clip people are using to say it's his fault:

Not sure I agree it's his fault but I do think he could have challenged more or made a bit more of an effort - definitely doesn't just go for him though, so a bit unfair to single him out.

The ball travelled about 70 yards past our entire team, loads of them could have probably done more.

[Leveller]

15 minutes ago, IAmNick said:

Think this is the clip people are using to say it's his fault:

Not sure I agree it's his fault but I do think he could have challenged more or made a bit more of an effort - definitely doesn't just go for him though, so a bit unfair to single him out.

The ball travelled about 70 yards past our entire team, loads of them could have probably done more.

Fevs is right. The scorer clearly pulled away from Kalas.  Vyner was the spare man and could have followed him, theoretically, but it all happened in the space of half a second.