Of course it all evens out..

[supercidered]

26 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

Not sure I'd describe their behaviour as 'managing' the officials, rather 'irritating' the officials. It's the reason City pick up so many needless bookings during cessations in play for what is tantamount to harassment. It's also why some decisions City should be awarded aren't given their way.

Weimann, in particular, is a downright cheat. He knows he's knocked the ball out of play, he appeals for it to be awarded a City ball. He appeals for everything irrespective of whether or not there's merit in his pleading. He's done it so frequently, over so many years, it's become an autonomic response. He gets bested in the challenge, falls over and believes that gives him the right to claim foul. The kids are following his example. There are plenty of morally bankrupt on here who'll claim it's 'harmless' else 'everybody does it'. Latterly, they don't, it's cheating, in extremis is simulation or unsportsmanlike conduct and should be punished. It also isn't 'harmless' as cry wolf once to often and you discover folks long since stopped listening. Add in a fickle AG mob and cheating pleadings quickly transfer to the stands. I've witnessed many occasions where the officials have called decisions correctly, though not to the liking of the likes of Weimann whose behaviour whips up the fans. A couple of rapid, back to back incidents and the hysterical crowd gets on the officials backs, though they've done nothing wrong. And you think they'll likely give the next 50:50 City's way? And from that position we witness games get away from us.

 

You may have some valid points there.

However, this is the same world over and much worse the world over. Not saying it's the right thing to do but there are many, many many worse than Wiemann even in our division let alone elsewhere. I don't believe for a minute that refs think 'that Weimann bloke is getting on my nerves and the crowd aren't being nice so I'm not giving them any 50/50's today'.

[Davefevs]

10 hours ago, The Horse With No Name said:

When was the last time a lino gave a penalty by putting his flag across his chest. Ref never went against his decision. Has that been stopped as well?

Don’t know, but if mic’d up, there’s no need to flag to inform the ref.

10 hours ago, IAmNick said:

I read somewhere recently that the flags the linemen have are almost entirely for the fans these days so we know what's going on.

The ref as far as I know isn't looking at them to see what they think he should do - he's already been told.

Edit: realised Dave already basically said this above in the bit you quoted, sorry!

It was on a Sky tv masterclass with Colina.  Great ref.

[tin]

The quality of refereeing in this country has gone massively downhill since the introduction of VAR. I used to think that refs who actually played the game might raise standards, then along came Andy Davies who's the worst I've seen this year. They seem totally beyond reproach as well, which doesn't help. Who assesses their performances or is it a back-slapping exercise after every game while they climb the greasy pole?

Someone said to me recently that Michael Oliver was the last Englishman to ref in the last-16 of the Champions League in 2018! At the same time, not one British ref was chosen for the 2018 World Cup. That shows how far refereeing standards have fallen in this country and it's bound to filter down to the second tier. Like our woeful home record until recently, our luck must change soon. 

[BTRFTG]

18 minutes ago, tin said:

The quality of refereeing in this country has gone massively downhill since the introduction of VAR. I used to think that refs who actually played the game might raise standards, then along came Andy Davies who's the worst I've seen this year. They seem totally beyond reproach as well, which doesn't help. Who assesses their performances or is it a back-slapping exercise after every game while they climb the greasy pole?

Someone said to me recently that Michael Oliver was the last Englishman to ref in the last-16 of the Champions League in 2018! At the same time, not one British ref was chosen for the 2018 World Cup. That shows how far refereeing standards have fallen in this country and it's bound to filter down to the second tier. Like our woeful home record until recently, our luck must change soon. 

I don't think it's reflective of the standard of British officiating, plenty of leagues seek ex British officials, more to do with FIFA & UEFA politics plus England's improved performances over the recent past. It's a bit like saying British music isn't what it once was because we regularly get thrashed at The Eurovision Song Contest.

FIFA don't help with the constant tweeking of The Laws nor their guidance which sometimes runs contrary to the The Laws they've enacted. VAR for example, is a badly conceived idea woefully executed. It should be dispensed with immediately.

Whether or not one believes the standard of officiating has declined the knowledge of The Laws by fans watching certainly has. As a kid once one had memorised all clubs, their nicknames, stadia, badges and records, The Laws of The Game was digested cover to cover and was weekly tested via 'You Are The Ref'. Every game these days it seems some numpty incorrectly berates the officials when they've called it right - usually ball overhanging the corner quadrant or application of Law 11.

"You don't know the rules ref..."

"They're Laws not rules..."

"Same thing, innit..."

"They aren't, The Ref understands the difference, you don't...."

[Davefevs]

I think refs should be assigned to a club for a month (in a different division to the one they operate in), and move each month.

They should learn from footballers / managers what a foul is, and on the flip should impart the rules / laws back onto the players / managers.

They are currently aloof, show no accountability, etc.

They are now pros, yet still behaving like amateurs.

[Midred]

There I was thinking that posters on otib were saying our players should become more "streetwise"!

Ronaldo was shouting and waving his finger in the ref's face the other day after 6 manure players were waved offside after a free kick. It was a wonderful move by the defenders. Did he get a card or warning? 

[brady bunch]

On 13/02/2022 at 15:06, The Original OTIB said:

I think the ref was in two minds and was almost pleading the linesman to help him out. The bloke just stood their with vacant eyes.

100% correct, I don't actually blame the ref on this one, the linesmen had a perfect view of it and Stroud keep deliberately eye-balling him to help/indicate a foul had happened, absolutely nothing registered and he played on...

[Colemanballs]

On 14/02/2022 at 00:10, Dan Robin said:

Are you a troll?  It's totally false. The contrary may be true, because our players rarely go down/dive...whereas players of other teams do that (at least against us) and are often rewarded by referees.

 

Yes he is. Which is why I've blocked him. As a favour, I'd ask that you don't quote his posts in future. Thanks!

[Rich]

Not sure it's been brought up during this debate but, the officials seem to have no idea whatsoever about physics and natural reactions.

Difficult to explain in words but. If a player is being pushed by another, say towards a goal upright, it would be expected and allowed for that player to protect himself by raising his hands to prevent contact. Yet, when a player is being pushed by someone backing into them the natural reaction is to grab something to prevent falling, this is clever play by the pusher, as referees can't seem to differentiate who's doing the pushing and they know that, why not?

What advantage would a defender have in pulling an opposition player, closer to the danger area, in so doing keeping them onside and, at the same time, preventing themselves from intercepting the ball? There is no sense in it, yet we see it so often. I know some will state examples to counter this but it simply goes against logic and physics.

As I've written this I've become exasperated at the expected replies and the fact that it's not easy to give definite examples but, the inability of officials to see the perpetrator of an incident has long bugged me.

[BTRFTG]

1 hour ago, Rich said:

Not sure it's been brought up during this debate but, the officials seem to have no idea whatsoever about physics and natural reactions.

Difficult to explain in words but. If a player is being pushed by another, say towards a goal upright, it would be expected and allowed for that player to protect himself by raising his hands to prevent contact. Yet, when a player is being pushed by someone backing into them the natural reaction is to grab something to prevent falling, this is clever play by the pusher, as referees can't seem to differentiate who's doing the pushing and they know that, why not?

What advantage would a defender have in pulling an opposition player, closer to the danger area, in so doing keeping them onside and, at the same time, preventing themselves from intercepting the ball? There is no sense in it, yet we see it so often. I know some will state examples to counter this but it simply goes against logic and physics.

As I've written this I've become exasperated at the expected replies and the fact that it's not easy to give definite examples but, the inability of officials to see the perpetrator of an incident has long bugged me.

Again that's harsh on officials. The problem lies with The Laws and the way in which officials are asked to implement them.

Your point about the Laws of Physics being wholly valid.

 

Edited February 15, 2022 by BTRFTG

[BTRFTG]

9 hours ago, Davefevs said:

They should learn from footballers / managers what a foul is,

Given managers and players struggle with The Laws what use might this be?

Better pre season and pre match (as in theory they do now,) they remind The Laws and, most importantly, of their intention to apply them. Two weeks of chaos and things will settle down save when English clubs play in Europe or England in international events.

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, BTRFTG said:

Given managers and players struggle with The Laws what use might this be?

Better pre season and pre match (as in theory they do now,) they remind The Laws and, most importantly, of their intention to apply them. Two weeks of chaos and things will settle down save when English clubs play in Europe or England in international events.

That’s why I suggested it should work both ways.

[BTRFTG]

Just now, Davefevs said:

That’s why I suggested it should work both ways.

It doesn't and never should (though Ferguson would disagree).

There are Laws.

Laws are not subject to interpretation.

The officials implement those Laws.

If managers and players don't understand The Laws, they should.

If players transgress The Laws they must be punished in accordance with those Laws.

[Rich]

6 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

Again that's harsh on officials. The problem lies with The Laws and the way in which officials are asked to implement them.

Your point about the Laws of Physics being wholly valid.

 

Can't see how that's harsh on officials. All I want them to be able to do is differentiate between the instigator and the recipient, action and reaction, simple physics really.

How many times have we seen a defender in the air about to head the ball, his only movement is either up or down, an attacker backs into him and the defender lands on top, the referee gives a foul against the defender, totally opposite of the correct decision.

[Rich]

3 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

It doesn't and never should (though Ferguson would disagree).

There are Laws.

Laws are not subject to interpretation.

The officials implement those Laws.

If managers and players don't understand The Laws, they should.

If players transgress The Laws they must be punished in accordance with those Laws.

We do see though that the officials ignore many laws, particularly when within the penalty area. I refer to obvious fouls committed when holding onto players, easily stopped, warn before the match that a penalty will be awarded for such infringements.

[View from the Dolman]

18 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

There are Laws.

Laws are not subject to interpretation.

The officials implement those Laws.

Staggering.

Strange how there is a section entitled in the IFAB Laws of the Game called "interpreting the law".

[BTRFTG]

8 minutes ago, Rich said:

Can't see how that's harsh on officials. All I want them to be able to do is differentiate between the instigator and the recipient, action and reaction, simple physics really.

How many times have we seen a defender in the air about to head the ball, his only movement is either up or down, an attacker backs into him and the defender lands on top, the referee gives a foul against the defender, totally opposite of the correct decision.

Wholly agree though in that case it's usually adjudged that the striker halts with the defender running into him as few jump straight up and down. In that case its a tad like driving, matters not who's caused the incident, stupid Law 12 forbids challenges from behind save where one is able so to do without contact - yeah, go figure... Strikers backing in should be punished but rarely are and that's just bad officiating. In respect of physics the worst is the commonplace interpretation  that players must jump with their arms by their sides- barmy.

In respect of culprit and recipient my bugbear is the protection of players not in control of the ball nor seeking to control the ball who then obstruct opponents. Usually seen with defenders marshalling the ball into touch. Law 12 has this covered but it appears the authorities have dictated it should not be applied in certain circumstance. That's barmy.

Again that's not the officials, it's FIFA, UEFA and their diktat.

[Davefevs]

17 minutes ago, Rich said:

We do see though that the officials ignore many laws, particularly when within the penalty area. I refer to obvious fouls committed when holding onto players, easily stopped, warn before the match that a penalty will be awarded for such infringements.

Exactly, they do interpret the rules / laws.

[BTRFTG]

Just now, View from the Dolman said:

Staggering.

Strange how there is a section entitled in the IFAB Laws of the Game called "interpreting the law".

Any therein lies the problem.

IFAB love to provide guidance on how Law should be interpreted and regularly change that, including in season when it's found not to work, but the simple fact is Laws are Laws and rules are rules and only rules are interpretive.

For example,  they've made mockery of Law 11, it's no longer enforceable without a microscope and multiple TV replays, so God help kids in the park. We were punished Sunday for an advantage that was interpreted no advantage, Semenyo scored Wednesday using the same interpretation.

The Laws should be in the 'opinion of the officials', then you may call them out as to whether or not they've done a good job. A few years ago IFAB went big on sanctions first few weeks of the season which saw multiple sendings off and rather than reinforce the message to players they did a quick reverse ferret. What message does that send?

[BTRFTG]

27 minutes ago, Rich said:

We do see though that the officials ignore many laws, particularly when within the penalty area. I refer to obvious fouls committed when holding onto players, easily stopped, warn before the match that a penalty will be awarded for such infringements.

That's rank bad officiating. The 'I won't book you because were only 5 minutes in... 'I'll give you a second bite at the cherry'. Ditto failing to blow when time's up instead waiting for play to come to a neutral point.

There was a time Refs did just as you correctly suggest and the authorities didn't like it and accused them of spoiling the game. The Lawmakers can't have it both ways 

 

[BTRFTG]

36 minutes ago, View from the Dolman said:

Staggering.

Strange how there is a section entitled in the IFAB Laws of the Game called "interpreting the law".

It's actually called 'guidance' and here's what it says:

These guidelines contain practical advice for match officials which 
supplements the information in the Laws of the Game section.
Reference is made in Law 5 to referees operating within the framework of the 
Laws of the Game and the ‘spirit of the game’. Referees are expected to use 
common sense and to apply the ‘spirit of the game’ when applying the Laws of 
the Game, especially when making decisions relating to whether a match takes 
place and/or continues. 
This is especially true for the lower levels of football where it may not always 
be possible for the Law to be strictly applied. For example, unless there are 
safety issues, the referee should allow a game to start/continue if:
• one or more corner flags is missing
• there is a minor inaccuracy with the markings on the field of play such as 
the corner area, centre circle etc.
• the goalposts/crossbar are not white
In such cases, the referee should, with the agreement of the teams, play/
continue the match and must submit a report to the appropriate authority.

 

Officials are NOT at liberty to amend The Laws.

[BTRFTG]

10 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Exactly, they do interpret the rules / laws.

It's ignoring, not interpretation and the finest example about which folks get het up each week is Law 15 - The Throw In.

The Law is exact. The ball must be returned to play from the spot it left the field of play either on the ground or in the air. Couldn't be clearer. And does that happen? Like **** does it. And why is that?

IFAB and the other authorities demand officials officiate within what is nebulously termed 'the spirit of the game', whatever that means. They don't want each and every minor infringement punished. IFAB went so far as to produce analysis showing in the majority of cases the team returning the ball to play cedes possession within two touches (in City's case it's one.) They concluded taking a throw-in from the wrong spot or occasionally seeing the thrower having the whole of one of their feet over the line no longer matters and shouldn't routinely be punished. They've given up on Law 15 but haven't rewritten the Law. Try telling that to the crowd berating the officials when the officials know they've been asked not to implement The Law as written.

 

[bredwood]

Here's the link to that article again.. https://www.football-observatory.com/IMG/sites/b5wp/2021/wp364/en/

The stats seem to point out that we are around 50% more unlikely to get a penalty than any other club in the division.

 

 

[BTRFTG]

1 hour ago, bredwood said:

Here's the link to that article again.. https://www.football-observatory.com/IMG/sites/b5wp/2021/wp364/en/

The stats seem to point out that we are around 50% more unlikely to get a penalty than any other club in the division.

 

 

Yet another utterly meaningless, faux correlation. What has 'big chances' (whatever they) to do with penalties being awarded? Nothing is the answer. Here's why:

Contrast two sides, one with pacy, tricky forwards who create chances by breaking quickly into their opponents box tantalizing defences. The other, a huge team of lumps, who mostly score when they send the tall blokes up for corners and free kicks. Which of those is more likely to be involved in penalty incidents?

City haven't had tricky and pacy wide men for years, nor nimble forwards in the box. We don't get awarded penalties because we rarely get ourselves into a position to be fouled in the box.

Beyond me why folks are unable to comprehend the difference between correlation and causation.

 

[Rich]

6 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

Yet another utterly meaningless, faux correlation. What has 'big chances' (whatever they) to do with penalties being awarded? Nothing is the answer. Here's why:

Contrast two sides, one with pacy, tricky forwards who create chances by breaking quickly into their opponents box tantalizing defences. The other, a huge team of lumps, who mostly score when they send the tall blokes up for corners and free kicks. Which of those is more likely to be involved in penalty incidents?

City haven't had tricky and pacy wide men for years, nor nimble forwards in the box. We don't get awarded penalties because we rarely get ourselves into a position to be fouled in the box.

Beyond me why folks are unable to comprehend the difference between correlation and causation.

 

While I agree that we don't get into dangerous areas as often as some other teams, resulting in fewer shouts for penalties. We've had a few tricky type player that's been able to get in the box, such as, Patterson, Elliason, O'Dowda, more recently Scott, sure there must be others but, as others have stated, we've had a fair amount of so called stone wall penalties not given for us, while at the same time some very soft ones given against us.

I firmly believe that there's a perception amongst officials that what you say is the case, yet a run of the mill middle championship team like Preston can average about eleven pens a season. There are some teams that just seem good at winning penalties or putting constant pressure on the ref by being able to get in the box and invite challenges which result in penalties being awarded.

I believe we are not very good at either getting the opposition to make rash challenges but, also not very good at putting pressure on the ref to give them. We do seem to have had plenty of cases especially more recently, where we've almost been assaulted and nothing has been awarded.

We have certainly been a more adventurous side this season with plenty of players getting in the box and rash challenges made, yet no penalties. It can't just be down to the officials net getting it right. On the gas thread I mentioned about their supporters, the coaches, subs and managers react and claim for fouls bookings and penalties, as one, this is bound to have an effect and put pressure onto the officials to act. At AG, I feel we are one of the least responsive sets of supporters, probably comatosed into accepting that we won't be very successful, after years, no decades of mediocrity. 

 

[BTRFTG]

1 hour ago, Rich said:

Patterson, Elliason, O'Dowda

The Swede was the only one of the 3 who had the ability to beat players and cross the ball, which he always did out wide, rarely troubling the box.

The other two couldn't beat their own proverbial, rarely enter the box and in CoD's case results either in  a corner (major success) though normally sees the ball fly high and beyond the dead ball line.

Even this season when the likes of Semenyo have broken into the box it doesn't help the ball's invariably yards away from his control.

There's no conspiracy against us. We don't get pens because we don't create enough of those opportunities for them to be given and as I written elsewhere, our propensity to fall over in a light breeze everywhere on the park creates a reputation that negates decisions when deserved.

[Rich]

1 minute ago, BTRFTG said:

The Swede was the only one of the 3 who had the ability to beat players and cross the ball, which he always did out wide, rarely troubling the box.

The other two couldn't beat their own proverbial, rarely enter the box and in CoD's case results either in  a corner (major success) though normally sees the ball fly high and beyond the dead ball line.

Even this season when the likes of Semenyo have broken into the box it doesn't help the ball's invariably yards away from his control.

There's no conspiracy against us. We don't get pens because we don't create enough of those opportunities for them to be given and as I written elsewhere, our propensity to fall over in a light breeze everywhere on the park creates a reputation that negates decisions when deserved.

You're very positive in your take on things, even to the point of your positivity being negative. I personally feel the awarding or not of penalties is a very grey area. I don't agree with your assessment of some of our players and I've never claimed there was a conspiracy against us, where you got that from I don't know. We'll have to agree to disagree. 

[The Swan and Cemetery]

10 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

The Swede was the only one of the 3 who had the ability to beat players and cross the ball, which he always did out wide, rarely troubling the box.

The other two couldn't beat their own proverbial, rarely enter the box and in CoD's case results either in  a corner (major success) though normally sees the ball fly high and beyond the dead ball line.

Even this season when the likes of Semenyo have broken into the box it doesn't help the ball's invariably yards away from his control.

There's no conspiracy against us. We don't get pens because we don't create enough of those opportunities for them to be given and as I written elsewhere, our propensity to fall over in a light breeze everywhere on the park creates a reputation that negates decisions when deserved.

Surely the laws are the laws? Not convinced of any higher level of moral bankruptcy from our players vs other teams, but even if there was, the role of officials is to apply the laws, which means giving penalties when laws indicate there should be one and punishing players who cheat/show dissent? Dangerous approach if refs are considering the reputation of our players when making their decisions, surely the job is to observe what’s in front of them? Accept its far fetched that there’s an actual conspiracy, but yet to see decisions even out for us this season. Also accept that, however frustrating, it maybe a statistical anomaly, easy enough to come up tails ten times in a row. 

[luke_bristol]

11 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

The Swede was the only one of the 3 who had the ability to beat players and cross the ball, which he always did out wide, rarely troubling the box.

The other two couldn't beat their own proverbial, rarely enter the box and in CoD's case results either in  a corner (major success) though normally sees the ball fly high and beyond the dead ball line.

Even this season when the likes of Semenyo have broken into the box it doesn't help the ball's invariably yards away from his control.

There's no conspiracy against us. We don't get pens because we don't create enough of those opportunities for them to be given and as I written elsewhere, our propensity to fall over in a light breeze everywhere on the park creates a reputation that negates decisions when deserved.

Did Luis Suarez stop getting penalties shortly after arriving in England when it was obvious how much he dived, and the 1000x as much coverage of the EPL cemented that deserved reputation rapidly? Was he regularly booked for diving? 

[Mr Popodopolous]

9 hours ago, luke_bristol said:

Did Luis Suarez stop getting penalties shortly after arriving in England when it was obvious how much he dived, and the 1000x as much coverage of the EPL cemented that deserved reputation rapidly? Was he regularly booked for diving? 

I wonder if Colin Murray and his mate not only highlighting what they saw as a positive refereeing decision but the fact that Semenyo went down easily (in their view) at Preston has had an impact. I remember them highlighting it.

Although it predates that significantly- but in the past some have had a reputation as going down easily- I remember in the mid 2000's Ronaldo, Johnson and Drogba which probably didn't help their cause.