Talk sport and the city model

[The turtle]

City are the basis of a whole segment here, basically having business model ripped to pieces by Mr Jordan and CO

Essentaily if the points deduction comes, we'll deserve it for a terrible modal that shouldn't even be allowed. 

Thoughts from those listening? 

[DaveF]

What are they claiming our business model to be?

[The turtle]

1 minute ago, DaveF said:

What are they claiming our business model to be?

Buy youth/abroad low, sell high and factoring that into financial fair play. 

A. You may never sell a player for profit, so shouldn't assume you will. 

B. Don't blame covid, had long enough to adjust. 

Edited February 17, 2022 by The turtle

[chinapig]

1 minute ago, The turtle said:

Buy low, sell high and factoring that into financial fair play. 

A. You never sell a player for profit. 

B. Don't blame covid, had long enough to adjust. 

A. If that means just for profit I agree. It's how you use it in a balanced way to improve the squad while protecting the finances.

B. Agreed also, I don't much like Gould's special pleading on Covid, especially the spurious claim to include hypothetical transfer income we "lost". We screwed our own finances but Steve is not a man to admit he got it wrong.

Though we need to bear in mind that Jordan and Steve were not exactly best buddies!

[Silvio Dante]

6 minutes ago, The turtle said:

Buy youth/abroad low, sell high and factoring that into financial fair play. 

A. You may never sell a player for profit, so shouldn't assume you will. 

B. Don't blame covid, had long enough to adjust. 

So Simon Jordan thinks a strategy of buying low and selling high is a poor one. Thanks for that Simon, I’ll go for the “buy high, sell low” strategy that led Palace to administration.

And Simon also thinks we can’t blame Covid when the financials he’s referring to are 20/21 when Covid was in full flow, and we’re now out and adjusting - ie not blaming Covid currently. I’m not sure Simon understands accounts are published retrospectively.
 

There’s a reason I don’t listen to Talksport. I’ve probably just identified it. 

[CyderInACan]

14 minutes ago, DaveF said:

What are they claiming our business model to be?

Wait - we've got a business model!? 

[Northern Red]

That tango *** would know all about clubs going into administration.

[lenred]

Derby county fans wetting their knickers about it already I see. Sad ****s

[1960maaan]

11 minutes ago, The turtle said:

Buy youth/abroad low, sell high and factoring that into financial fair play. 

A. You may never sell a player for profit, so shouldn't assume you will. 

B. Don't blame covid, had long enough to adjust. 

If there was a single strategy plan, then yeah, that would be poor. 
The thing is, and it was massively affected by COVID, was the stadium was a major factor in the income to the club. Largest conference space in the area, Gigs and banqueting all building nicely and all dependant on people being able to mix. Again, COVID.
Steve said he wanted the Club to be self sufficient , that would be impossible relying on buying and selling young players from abroad. Though a cursory look may imply we tried that in seasons past. I can't listen to that program , Jordan is a *****. He does sometime sound interesting, but I think he is going the same way Adrian Durham did, being a gobshite to get more calls in.

[Akira]

Jordan has a point whether you like him or not. 

Having a business model which sets your player wages to be around 90% turnover and living on the edge, thinking you can bring through youth and sell for profit all the time, eventually it'll fail, which is what we're seeing (added with the extra pressure of COVID) 

Let's not pretend player's aren't the issue here, because they are. Their wages are astronomical. We've got Wells on the bench every game earning over a million pounds a year. No wonder we're in the shit. Palmer, stealing a living. Players that were signed a few seasons back on crazy salaries, for which we might pay the price for next season. 

Edit - one thing to add, this does highlight the need to scrap the unfair parachute payments. Fulham have the best striker in the league, reportedly earning £60/70k a week, but they can do so due to the payments from being in the Prem. 

Clubs wouldn't strive so hard just to try and remain competitive if the parachute payments didn't exist imo. 

Edited February 17, 2022 by Akira

[Cowshed]

18 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

So Simon Jordan thinks a strategy of buying low and selling high is a poor one. Thanks for that Simon, I’ll go for the “buy high, sell low” strategy that led Palace to administration.

And Simon also thinks we can’t blame Covid when the financials he’s referring to are 20/21 when Covid was in full flow, and we’re now out and adjusting - ie not blaming Covid currently. I’m not sure Simon understands accounts are published retrospectively.
 

There’s a reason I don’t listen to Talksport. I’ve probably just identified it. 

Mr Jordan stated you cannot underpin a business on things that may not happen e.g. buy low sell high. It is not a guaranteed cash flow. 

Edited February 17, 2022 by Cowshed

[The turtle]

14 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

So Simon Jordan thinks a strategy of buying low and selling high is a poor one. Thanks for that Simon, I’ll go for the “buy high, sell low” strategy that led Palace to administration.

And Simon also thinks we can’t blame Covid when the financials he’s referring to are 20/21 when Covid was in full flow, and we’re now out and adjusting - ie not blaming Covid currently. I’m not sure Simon understands accounts are published retrospectively.
 

There’s a reason I don’t listen to Talksport. I’ve probably just identified it. 

It's not the process as such, but the fact it's the difference between hitting fair play and not. 

His argument was it shouldn't be a factor in hitting fair play or not.

You can't run a business on this basis because if you don't sell high/or at least well, you are F****d

Doing it is one thing, gets that part, being the difference between missing fair play and a points deduction is another matter. 

 

Edited February 17, 2022 by The turtle

[Gazred]

It's not true though is it?

We tried to invest in younger players that could do a job now but also improve and add £ value. That hasn't always worked out of course but it's not just in Europe (no mention of HNM there?), what about Webster and Brownhill. Made good profit on both and served us well, recruited from the EFL. We continue to develop good home grown players too, some of which have gone for large amounts and others who are also worth a tidy profit are currently holding down places in our team, did that get a mention?

As for covid....how the hell would anyone be planning for that? Any business model is going to expect a turnover as part of its model. It's not like we've taken a huge gamble on getting to the Prem, we've made large investments for sure but not in an all or nothing attempt. I feel we are a victim of circumstance more than anything else.

[Wiltshire robin]

I’m not a fan of lansdown but Jordan had had previous with lansdown so is gonna try and slag him off as much as possible. I’m referring to Jordan throwing a cup of coffee at lansdown in the past .

[Robbored]

5 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

If there was a single strategy plan, then yeah, that would be poor. 
The thing is, and it was massively affected by COVID, was the stadium was a major factor in the income to the club. Largest conference space in the area, Gigs and banqueting all building nicely and all dependant on people being able to mix. Again, COVID.
Steve said he wanted the Club to be self sufficient , that would be impossible relying on buying and selling young players from abroad. Though a cursory look may imply we tried that in seasons past. I can't listen to that program , Jordan is a *****. He does sometime sound interesting, but I think he is going the same way Adrian Durham did, being a gobshite to get more calls in.

Wasn’t smarmy Ashton CEO at the time in question?

[1960maaan]

1 minute ago, Robbored said:

Wasn’t smarmy Ashton CEO at the time in question?

When it looked like that was our strategy , yeah.

That Clubs in the bag thing, hoover up players like there's no tomorrow, whether they fit the team or not. Then when you sell, hope for a profit. Ashton loved a deal, just didn't love a plan by the seem of it. 

[Tin Soldier]

Have to ignore the Jordan/Lansdown fallout.

But for me, keeping more of the “family silver, buying less monkeys” would have meant Premiership football by now IMO. Real shame how one prat led Lansdown astray. SL took his eye of the ball. Fatal in biz.

[Robbored]

1 minute ago, Wiltshire robin said:

I’m not a fan of lansdown but Jordan had had previous with lansdown so is gonna try and slag him off as much as possible. I’m referring to Jordan throwing a cup of coffee at lansdown in the past .

Jordan did not make one disparaging comment about City or SL for that matter. He was trying to explain how FFP regulations apply and the difficulties that some Championship clubs encounter.

[Cowshed]

5 minutes ago, Gazred said:

It's not true though is it?

We tried to invest in younger players that could do a job now but also improve and add £ value. That hasn't always worked out of course but it's not just in Europe (no mention of HNM there?), what about Webster and Brownhill. Made good profit on both and served us well, recruited from the EFL. We continue to develop good home grown players too, some of which have gone for large amounts and others who are also worth a tidy profit are currently holding down places in our team, did that get a mention?

As for covid....how the hell would anyone be planning for that? Any business model is going to expect a turnover as part of its model. It's not like we've taken a huge gamble on getting to the Prem, we've made large investments for sure but not in an all or nothing attempt. I feel we are a victim of circumstance more than anything else.

Turn over that Bristol City constantly spend past on wages prior to covid.  

[RedRoss]

I do agree to be honest. To rely on a volatile transfer market to pay huge fees and wages above our level in terms of revenue to compete with teams with higher revenue streams and parachute payments is way too risky.

One or two bad investments which all clubs make with recruitment and we're heavily impacted. Now I know Covid has magnified the issue but we have to take responsibility.

Also others will point to Brentford ect but they were equally taking a big risk.They just made better decisions with recruitment and thankfully for them got promoted.

We must accept this critism as I know posters on here have been hugely critical of Derby ect for their dodgy accounting. Although we've not been deceitful we've been careless in terms of FFP and have to accept this viewpoint and any implications that may come our way.

Kieron Maguire has summed it up in the past. Most fans want a sustainable model for their club but they also want substantial investment and success. These two objectives usually never happen. More often clubs which are more sustainable tend to get relegated ie Wycombe, Rotherham ect. Basically we can't have our cake and eat it.

[The turtle]

2 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Jordan did not make one disparaging comment about City or SL for that matter. He was trying to explain how FFP regulations apply and the difficulties that some Championship clubs encounter.

To the point when Murphy was slightly negative about SL he absolutely rejected it. 

 

It was a curious listen if nothing else. 

[Silvio Dante]

2 minutes ago, The turtle said:

It's not the process as such, but the fact it's the difference between hitting fair play and not. 

His argument was it shouldn't be a factor in hitting fair play or not.

You can't run a business on this basis because if you don't sell, you are F****d

Doing it is one thing, gets that part, being the difference between missing fair play and a points deduction is another matter. 

 

Tbf , most businesses run on the basis of selling goods for more than they’ve paid for them, so the “buy low, sell high”. The trick is generally ensuring your stock is accurately valued

I think the big thing that Jordan’s missing (and it has been lost) is that our model isn’t based solely on sales and that also isn’t the difference between FFP or not. Our major income generator is the stadium, and if you look at the income lost through Covid, that’s the difference between meeting and failing FFP. And I’d bet that the “acceptable losses” will consider this and we won’t fail FFP on that basis.

Lets flip the question. If Jordan doesn’t believe a good model is income generation from the stadium and player sales as the latter isn’t guaranteed, what does he believe is? Match day income doesn’t cover costs, and parachute payments also aren’t guaranteed long term. So, what is his better model?

Or is he just being a Cuprinol faced **** again?

[Rob k]

It’s the most unfair division probably in world football - how are clubs like City to compete without taking a risk? 

[Silvio Dante]

12 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Mr Jordan stated you cannot underpin a business on things that may not happen e.g. buy low sell high. It is not a guaranteed cash flow. 

And again, I’ll then say in terms of football what is when the turnstile money doesn’t cover things?

We have a “guaranteed” stream. Non match day stadium income. But Covid stopped it and caused a lot of our problems.

So, what is Mr Jordan’s guaranteed stream that he points to outside of our current strategy? 

[Cowshed]

Just now, Silvio Dante said:

And again, I’ll then say in terms of football what is when the turnstile money doesn’t cover things?

We have a “guaranteed” stream. Non match day stadium income. But Covid stopped it and caused a lot of our problems.

So, what is Mr Jordan’s guaranteed stream that he points to outside of our current strategy? 

In answer to your question Jordan didn't talk about an alternative strategy for BCFC. He spoke about the flaws in the BCFC model. 

Mr Jordan made reference to Bristol City constantly spending well past turn over on wages. City have done this for years. And buying low to sell high. Spending past turn over + a non guaranteed cash flow is a flawed sustainable model. That strategy was likely to fall off a cliff (SJ  words), its on the edge.   

 

[RedRoss]

5 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

And again, I’ll then say in terms of football what is when the turnstile money doesn’t cover things?

We have a “guaranteed” stream. Non match day stadium income. But Covid stopped it and caused a lot of our problems.

So, what is Mr Jordan’s guaranteed stream that he points to outside of our current strategy? 

The thing is this wasn't the main issue that has caused most of our problems. Covid accelerated the issue but paying over the top wages and fees and banking on success in the transfer market is the main issue. Even if Covid hadn't come along do you still think we'd get a return on the 4 million outlay on Kasey Palmer, the 8 million we paid for Kalas, the 4.5 million on Nakhi Wells? Those fees along with their hefty wages which are way above our pay grade.

[TonyTonyTony]

How does a club, like city, compete with the parachute clubs? You have to pay good wages to a select few players and hope they perform. The tactic of trying to find youth, develop them and sell on for profit is entirely sensible. The issue at city is the recruitment has not been great. We have duds sat on the bench / squad earning loads. Recruitment is the issue

Edited February 17, 2022 by TonyTonyTony

[BTRFTG]

Like most in The Championship City didn't have an assured business model. Like all mug punters they gambled and lost.

Covid is a red herring, it cost City last year between £8m -£9m.

City signed dozens upon dozens of players, mostly crap, all costing far in excess of what they were worth, remunerated at eye-watering rates beyond that City could afford. That's City problem, nothing else.

Routinely paying more in salaries than you take in turnover, what might possibly go wrong?

[iamalagerdrinker]

Anyone got a link and time to when the conversation was please?

[CHIPLEY RED]

36 minutes ago, Akira said:

Jordan has a point whether you like him or not. 

Having a business model which sets your player wages to be around 90% turnover and living on the edge, thinking you can bring through youth and sell for profit all the time, eventually it'll fail, which is what we're seeing (added with the extra pressure of COVID) 

Let's not pretend player's aren't the issue here, because they are. Their wages are astronomical. We've got Wells on the bench every game earning over a million pounds a year. No wonder we're in the shit. Palmer, stealing a living. Players that were signed a few seasons back on crazy salaries, for which we might pay the price for next season. 

Edit - one thing to add, this does highlight the need to scrap the unfair parachute payments. Fulham have the best striker in the league, reportedly earning £60/70k a week, but they can do so due to the payments from being in the Prem. 

Clubs wouldn't strive so hard just to try and remain competitive if the parachute payments didn't exist imo. 

I don't like this type of comment. Why is Palmer stealing a living?

Somebody decided to sign him on a contract at a rate of pay. He had been on loan so we knew what we were buying. If the club choose to now not use the player thats the clubs fault. I'm sure Palmer would rather be playing than not.

I would describe it as mismanagement by the club. We bought and expensive asset and then haven't used it.