“The fans choice”

[Davefevs]

7 hours ago, Tafkarmlf said:

Tis an interesting topic  not sure  I buy the S'oD style excuses re NP being rubbish though. It's like a repeat to excuse failures and by that I mean utterly failing 

We're crap, have been for a while. As I've detailed else where 

Manager cant/, won't change that with players he has, and seems wont even try. 

Since Cardiff, we've won 2 in 11 i think and were lucky to win vs Blackburn. 

We've conceded plenty of goals, this is more than just a bad day at the office, this is sacking form. 

Fans can't keep excusing the horrendous forever. NP needs to change it up or elses he is a gonner. 

 

 

One man’s “horrendous” is another man’s “we are doing okay”.  We both appear to have different views and different measures of evaluating this.

But we’ve actually won 3 in 11 (1 draw), not 2…..or 4 in 12 if you’d gone 1 game further.

”we’re crap”.  To some extent we are…and yet we expect to win every week or be consistent every week?  But it depends on whether you want to say the reason we are crap is all down to Pearson or not….or a series of reasons / circumstances.

Being honest, serious question - do you think it’s all his fault? The reason I ask, is because that’s how your posts read to me.  Be interested to know.

FWIW I can sit here, and happily defend Pearson overall, whilst also seeing some distinct areas to criticise him too.

[Redandproud]

14 hours ago, Sheltons Army said:

 

Very Rude , with a real insult to a true City fan, and Sticks is City and England from head to toe 

 

Ohhhhhh and a hypocrite

 

(nice name change to distance yourself from your previous postings btw)

I apologise, just guessing it was a gashead invading our forum,that's all

[Clutton Caveman]

20 hours ago, Rich said:

S L likes to be proven right. He appoints fans favourites when in dire situations and appoints his favourites when the going is good. Ultimately it all ends in abject failure.

When you surround yourself with yes men its not surprising that you have no idea about football and what it takes to win. Most hobby Chairmen get themselves a trusted football man for guidance. We have no such man in our ranks. NP has turned out to be an ego driven dinosaur always knowing best and always blaming others for the teams failure. I think it is clear that SL has grown tired of the project and would like to cash out. This could go well or not but as we are I think we will drift from one disaster to the next

[KegCity]

Just now, Clutton Caveman said:

When you surround yourself with yes men its not surprising that you have no idea about football and what it takes to win. Most hobby Chairmen get themselves a trusted football man for guidance. We have no such man in our ranks. NP has turned out to be an ego driven dinosaur always knowing best and always blaming others for the teams failure. I think it is clear that SL has grown tired of the project and would like to cash out. This could go well or not but as we are I think we will drift from one disaster to the next

Just based on the way he's carried himself in the last few years I agree. Rumours that we're looking for outside investment back it up as well, wouldn't be surprised if we just do enough to tread water until a change in ownership happens.

[Clutton Caveman]

15 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Go for it if that’s what you want to do.  I’m sure others will do the same too.  You don’t have to buy a season ticket, nobody is forcing you.

I think club loyalty is great BUT fans should not be expected to pay higher prices for a declining product. Season tickets are really a nice cushion for the club, suck them in with a few hopeful messages and once they have paid ignore them. If we all paid at the gate for each game I think the board would be more focused on providing a product people want to watch.

[ooRya]

8 hours ago, billywedlock said:

So you disregard all of the factors created by LJ and Ashton and a 39 m loss and the dross of a squad that 39 m they delivered . Give me strength .. City fans are really on another planet . 

No-one is ignoring that, it's a glaring problem for whoever is in charge.

But I still say that I have seen nothing from Pearson to suggest he is the right man for the job.

[CHIPLEY RED]

9 hours ago, billywedlock said:

So you disregard all of the factors created by LJ and Ashton and a 39 m loss and the dross of a squad that 39 m they delivered . Give me strength .. City fans are really on another planet . 

No I don't disregard any of those factors but how long can a manager live off the mistakes of a predecessor?

This isn't pro LJ or anyone else but LJ was sacked because we were falling away from the playoff places - at the time this was probably the right decision. 2 Managers down the line and we are now just happy to stay up. 

Look I will get behind the team and manager no matter what but for those who say "NP must stay and given time" I haven't seen a single argument that backs that up only "look at what he inherited". I genuinely thought he was a good appointment and would take us closer to the prem. Reality is we are closer to League 1.

There are some really good things to have come out of this season particularly the emergence of some bright youngsters but performances, in the main, are not good enough.

 

[maxjak]

14 hours ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

Or, if you want to stay closer to home rather than travelling to North London, I understand Bristol Rovers are doing quite well and, apparently, playing attractive football.

Probably a lot cheaper, too.

I appreciate your tongue in cheek aside.......and i actually hope The Gas get promoted. The reason i might go to Arsenal is because I lived and worked in North London for 4 years during the Thierry Henry era...and it was some of the best and most exciting football i have ever witnessed live.   Even then , despite having stellar football on my doorstep, I used to come down to watch City when i could.  Most fans follow a second team.......and i just cannot, .....           ......stand Pearson, and his management.                          .

Edited March 17, 2022 by maxjak

[maxjak]

I never get the use of the "Confused" symbol when responding to a post..........Does it mean the answering poster is illiterate,    incapable of expressing an opinion, does not know their own mind, or possibly cannot formulate an idea?.  It is such a cop out of a response...that leaves me confused?   

[exAtyeoMax]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

One man’s “horrendous” is another man’s “we are doing okay”.  We both appear to have different views and different measures of evaluating this.

But we’ve actually won 3 in 11 (1 draw), not 2…..or 4 in 12 if you’d gone 1 game further.

”we’re crap”.  To some extent we are…and yet we expect to win every week or be consistent every week?  But it depends on whether you want to say the reason we are crap is all down to Pearson or not….or a series of reasons / circumstances.

Being honest, serious question - do you think it’s all his fault? The reason I ask, is because that’s how your posts read to me.  Be interested to know.

FWIW I can sit here, and happily defend Pearson overall, whilst also seeing some distinct areas to criticise him too.

Plus some of those losses occurred even when we played really well. Performance has to come into it as well. That at least gives me some hope…

[Davefevs]

16 minutes ago, CHIPLEY RED said:

No I don't disregard any of those factors but how long can a manager live off the mistakes of a predecessor?

This isn't pro LJ or anyone else but LJ was sacked because we were falling away from the playoff places - at the time this was probably the right decision. 2 Managers down the line and we are now just happy to stay up. 

Look I will get behind the team and manager no matter what but for those who say "NP must stay and given time" I haven't seen a single argument that backs that up only "look at what he inherited". I genuinely thought he was a good appointment and would take us closer to the prem. Reality is we are closer to League 1.

There are some really good things to have come out of this season particularly the emergence of some bright youngsters but performances, in the main, are not good enough.

 

When I look at our squad, based on availability, I’d say Nige is slightly underperforming, but only slightly.  If he had Baker, Tanner, James, King, Semenyo and Williams available for 75% of games I’d expect us to be mid-table (12-14th).  But with what he’s had to select I’d say we should be 16-18th.

He hasn’t established a way of playing yet, although I think he could’ve persisted with a back 4 based system.

He is trying to get through this season by spending as little as possible….trying to work with what he’s got.  The intangibles of finding out whether the likes of Bakinson, Vyner etc are what he wants has been done by playing them, rather than just basing on training.  He hasn’t doubled up on players and the cost that goes with a bigger squad.  He’s actually found out that by bravely trying things.  He hasn’t blocked pathway whilst doing that.

Your final sentence, I understand your angle, but I see it differently….that is by getting these players to emerge performances have suffered, but it’s “no pain, no gain”.

Ultimately we have differing views….that’s fine.

 

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Tafkarmlf said:

For all of this experience and blind faith people have in him, there is nt anything to show for that

Subjective and a bit rude too.

1 hour ago, Tafkarmlf said:

Behind the scenes, I'm not seeing lots of work, indeed it's you guys doing scouting for us. 

That swan over there is serene!!

Ignoring the scouting stuff (that’s between club and Harry about how much info they want to put out there), I know from two other people, there is lots of change going on, Gould at the forefront of the non-playing stuff, Pearson and Tinnion on the football side.  We just don’t see it.

1 hour ago, Tafkarmlf said:

We were promised fitness levels would be better and players woukd be more fit as in be able to play longer without getting knackered yet half the time our players look shag tired. So that's not worked either Dave. 

Availability has been better, just feels worse because of a smaller squad.  Williams has played lots more minutes this season, so has Baker, so has Martin, etc.  depends how you want to cut it.

But to summarise, you do think it’s all Pearson’s fault though.  That’s fine if you do.  I don’t.

[rednotblue]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

 

Ignoring the scouting stuff (that’s between club and Harry about how much info they want to put out there), I know from two other people, there is lots of change going on, Gould at the forefront of the non-playing stuff, Pearson and Tinnion on the football side.  We just don’t see it.

I hope things are changing behind the scenes and for the better. There needs to be structure and SL and JL need to keep their beaks out of it.

Pearson kept us up last season and hopefully will do again this season. That is an achievement. Compared to a few seasons ago it sounds stupid.

But we have fallen a very very long way in a short space of time.

Pearson has to do better no doubt, we have seen it in fits and starts. Not consistently enough.

But he is keeping us up. Blooding youngsters (not always by choice granted). Slowly improving from last season.

It is painful but it is where we are.

If we could defend a bit better, we would have say another 6-9 points.

How many points have been lost to late late goals.

If Pearson can stop us leaking goals that will go a long way.

Of course it would help if we had players that could head, kick shoot and pass. But we haven't

 

 

 

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, Tafkarmlf said:

Swan is you saying whataboutery? For clarification, I'm explaining my pov, as you've suggested you respect that, however please don't presume to think for me or assume. 

No, it means just because you can’t see it, doesn’t mean it’s not happening.

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, Tafkarmlf said:

You mentioned the non playing stuffnot being NPs role, which kinda indicts him further tbh. 

No, I just mean I’m not privy to that stuff, I’m only commenting on what I know Gould is up to….perhaps better if I’d said non-football rather than non-playing “stuff”.

[Red_Alligator]

For me, the riddle to solve remains one which is of much greater significance than whether NP is up to the task of changing the teams' fortunes, or whether a change at managerial level is the answer. Which is a shame really - considering that what is most important of course, is how our beloved football team is performing.

In reality, I see very little wiggle room for changing, never mind improving the quality of the team, without a number of significent opportunities going our way, pretty quickly. Being able to sell on some of our better youngsters for good money, moving perpetually injured and/or "squad/bench players" on - for money, and developing other youngsters into Championship ready players quickly, would all seem to me to be things that must happen for us together - and soon.

I am perpetually impressed and bemused by Mr Pops, Dave Fevs and others who seem to understand, to the nth degree, the financial implications of where the club as a whole, is at. So on that pretext, I could of course be very wide of the mark in my assertions. As ever, I stand to be corrected (politely though, if you will).

What I'm absolutely sure of, is that we appear to be stuck in mud of W-S-M proportions, and the tide is coming in fast.

 

[Davefevs]

44 minutes ago, Red_Alligator said:

For me, the riddle to solve remains one which is of much greater significance than whether NP is up to the task of changing the teams' fortunes, or whether a change at managerial level is the answer. Which is a shame really - considering that what is most important of course, is how our beloved football team is performing.

In reality, I see very little wiggle room for changing, never mind improving the quality of the team, without a number of significent opportunities going our way, pretty quickly. Being able to sell on some of our better youngsters for good money, moving perpetually injured and/or "squad/bench players" on - for money, and developing other youngsters into Championship ready players quickly, would all seem to me to be things that must happen for us together - and soon.

I am perpetually impressed and bemused by Mr Pops, Dave Fevs and others who seem to understand, to the nth degree, the financial implications of where the club as a whole, is at. So on that pretext, I could of course be very wide of the mark in my assertions. As ever, I stand to be corrected (politely though, if you will).

What I'm absolutely sure of, is that we appear to be stuck in mud of W-S-M proportions, and the tide is coming in fast.

 

We need to find a couple of real nuggets, and cheaply, that can come in, gel immediately and improve us.  That might be a youngster breaking through (e.g. Scott), a lower league “find” or an OOC player (freebie).  We can’t solve our problems by buying solutions…not in the transfer fee sense.  I think we lost a bit of that focus very quickly once we survived our first season back in the Champ.

Above is the players we signed in 16/17.  Situation isn’t quite the same, but is off the back of a struggling season.  Admittedly we had a small squad, the likes of Baker, Odemwingie, Pearce, etc who we had on loan had gone back, although Tomlin and Matthews returned.  So we did have to bring in some players to boost the numbers.

Trying to look at that season’s recruitment and who would match up with what we need this time around, I.e. who might we look at this summer.  Forgot positional needs for the mo’, just talking about good recruitment.

Magnússon would be Atkinson, but we couldn’t afford him this time around.

I’d pick:

Taylor

Wright

Brownhill

£1m outlay in 16/17, probably cost half that now.

Possibly Paterson too.

If we could pick up three of the ilk of that group of 4, then that would be success imho.

 

[Rich]

11 hours ago, Clutton Caveman said:

When you surround yourself with yes men its not surprising that you have no idea about football and what it takes to win. Most hobby Chairmen get themselves a trusted football man for guidance. We have no such man in our ranks. NP has turned out to be an ego driven dinosaur always knowing best and always blaming others for the teams failure. I think it is clear that SL has grown tired of the project and would like to cash out. This could go well or not but as we are I think we will drift from one disaster to the next

A strange perception of things. You state that S L surrounds himself with yes men. You state that a hobby chairman then employs a football man to run the show and, that we have no such football man.

Pearson is certainly not a yes man and, I would argue that he is a trusted football man, employed by S L for his guidance. That's what has enabled him to make tough decisions, use his experience to tell where things are not right. Then when he does identify those things, you call him an ego driven dinosaur.

It's obvious that you don't like him, probably based on the fact that we're not wining games you think we should, with the tools available to him. I'm of the belief that those tools are blunt and of lower quality than the tools we invested heavily in, paying Dewalt prices, and getting a yellow copy from Wilko. 

In my opinion, I expect Pearson to stay at the club as an overseer/DOF and SL will again employ a young hungry coach that does what he's told and works within certain parameters. Then when the dust settles, Pearson will be removed and we'll have the old LJ scenario again.

 

 

[RedRock]

Still, pretty solidly, in the pro-Pearson camp.

However, could we have utilised our available resources better - could another manager have got a tune out of Palmer? Could another manager have adapted our style to utilise Wells better? Questionable. They certainly have been a massive waste of transfer fees and salaries.

Could/should the top priority have been sorting out a scouting system fit for purpose. In my view, yes. 

Has he played players unwisely, whether when coming back from injury or due to age. Again yes. Have some of his substitutions been questionable. Yep. Have a good number of his signings failed to deliver. Yep. Has our injury record been as bad as ever. Yep. Are we as inconsistent collectively and individually as ever. Yep. Have we developed leaders, fighters, winners. Nope. Are we mostly a disorganised mess, lacking in identity and a recognisable game plan? Fear so. 
 

Bottom line though, we are (nearly) safe. Pretty low bar, admittedly in terms of ‘achievement’ but hey, we are where we are.  Thanks MA/LJ. What a mess they left. 

 

[Spike]

19 hours ago, BCFC_Dan said:

That's not the question. It's not about the size of the hole, it's about the ability of the man in charge to fix it, and I can't see what it is in Nigel Pearson's record that suggests he's any more capable of doing the job than anyone else. I don't deny it's a big job, but he's had 12 months and got no further than Dean Holden did, and shown nothing to suggest he will.

 

He's had 12 months but if you look at the transfers:

Out:
Hunt - our main Right back and only natural right back - left on a free
Diedhiou - Our once highest paid transfer fee striker- left on a free
Rowe - Probably our best utility player able to play a variety of roles - left on a free

and numerous others. Not a single fee received for any of the 10+ players who left.

In: 
Rob Atkinson - £1.4M - Our only cash signing, very promising youngster who has been unfortunate with injuries
Klose - arguably our best CB, especially when on the ball, calm and collected, in on a free
King and James - brought in because of previous experience with Pearson, most likely brought in to get Pearsons back and show the players around them what his football style is.

When you consider that means Pearson has lost over double the players he's been able to bring in and has only made one paid purchase it's fair to say he's hardly been given the tools to fix the issues this club has left him with.

We currently have no natural right sided players, neither in midfield or defence. Simpson was most likely forced on Pearson because he was the only option available at the time meaning Pearson has had to create a team with no natural balance.

Pearson is obviously having to create a squad with no money, no backing and using a formation that the club built it's squad around years ago and no longer has the players to make it balanced, that said, he cannot change the formation or playstyle because we don't have the players to do so. Any formation with a back 4.... no right back, any formation with a wide midfield, no right sided midfielder. Ultimately Pearson has put out the best he has to offer under the constraints he's been given to work with and fans still seem to be surprised that we're not performing. 
In my personal opinion, the players know the situation and they know they've got no financial gain to be made with good performances as our finances are so poor, the only driving factor for a player is pride or the hope of a move elsewhere to improve their career. It doesn't surprise me that some of our best performances are coming from youngsters and that's because they have a future if they perform. The older players know that they'll not be getting any significant pay rise and with covid ravaging the market their best bet is to see out their contract and then look for a move. Ultimately Nigel has been left with a bare bones squad and is being expected to compete at the top of the table which is just madness.

If we sack Pearson tomorrow we're hardly going to get anyone in who can change the situation or the mentality of the club short of doing what Pearson is already doing.

[robin for life]

I may be considered Pro Lee Johnson and it will anger most, but he is a better manager than what we have now. People chastise his recruitment but its actually nonsense. We played better football under Johnson and looked like a top half team, we now look like relegation awaiting to happen. People go on about the £39m loss, as if its all his fault, are people forgetting COVID!!! He was sacked in the season that had to be broken down because of Covid and at a time clubs had no money to buy players and it was behind closed doors. The fact was when he was preparing for the 19/20 season I doubt anyone expected Covid to come along, this meant purchases made that season were based on a normal budget and also with the expectation, that come the following summer certain players would be sold on. The world of football changed, and the clubs outlay and income was massively affected. You can't put the blame of £39m losses on a managers head, when Covid crippled it in more ways then one! When you look at Johnson's signings how bad really were they, I've broken them down here in each Full year he was in charge. My opinion his recruitment was not as bad as people think,

 

2016 - 2017 Season

Lee Tomlin - Fans demanded this, brilliant on loan, ultimately big flop, but LJ is not the blame for this, the fans wanted this signing more than anyone , plus we didn't lose much on him, by selling to Cardiff
Magnússon - Good quality defender for City, ended up being sold on for profit - Positive Signing
Djuric - Big flop admittedly but was at the right age and price (1.6m) that had it worked out, would have had sell on value
Taylor Moore - Huge flop but 1.5m at the time for an England under 20 player, no one was whining about him when we signed him but he was a flop. 
Engvall - Probably Johnson's worse signing, decent money paid, showed nothing, left for peanuts Negative Signing
O'Dowda - Highly rated when signed for 1m, may not be the standard we need now, but had 5 years here and been a first team player the whole time. For £1m, he has been a solid signing.
Matt Taylor - Signed to piss off the Gas, no other reason. Didn't lose money, wasn't bad or good for us.
Hegeler - Brought in cheaply because of top flip experience in Germany, wasn't very good but at 250K he wasn't expensive.
O'Neill - Done a job for the time he was here, he was free and played a number of games and was OK at this level.
Brownhill - Signed on a free, sold for massive profit - Excellent Business
Girolamo - Cheap buy for academy, never progressed, no loss no profit
Paterson - Quality signing for us, and was key player for 4 years. Still solid at this level - Positive Signing
Bailey Wright - Decent captain at this level for us, wasn't expensive and was a solid part of our defence for 3 seasons - Not good or bad signing
Adam Matthews - Loan Signing who was good the year before, but poor, - Negative Signing
Cotterill - Cheap loan, understand why we done it, didn't work out, but was low risk and wasnt bad or good.
Giefer - Came in to put pressure on Fielding, was shit. - Negative Signing
Tammy - Probably the best player I've seen at the gate in a long time - Positive Signing
Ekstrand - Short term, injury prone, cheap. Neither good or bad
Vyner - Signed on potential and cheaply. Hasn't been bad for us, and whilst not up to this level, hes not cost the club big money

2017 - 2018 Season

Diedhiou - 5.4m questionable but was not Johnson's fault he left on a free, and done well in his 3 years at the club. Positive Signing
Baker - Injury prone but was solid in first 2 years here and Pearson renewed his contract. Positive signing
Eliasson - Very good for us and sold for near enough what we paid for him - Positive Signing
Walsh - Paid 1m which looked good business at the time, was too lightweight for this level - Negative Signing
Pisano - Solid for the time we had him
Steele - Good backup keeper 
Diony - Glad we only loaned him, he was the worse striker I've seen since Bas Savage - Negative Signing
Kent - May have been shit for us, but was considered a coup at the time, now a class player at Rangers, not Johnsons fault it didn't work out
Leko - Struggled at this level but was only on loan
Woodrow - Didn't work out here, again cheap loan

Worth noting that during this season Johnson promoted Bobby Reid and Lloyd Kelly to the first team, players  who we would go on to make massive profits on. 

18/19 Season

Webster - Outstanding for us, sold for big profit - Positive Signing
Wiemann - Bought for 2m and worth every penny, Positive Signing
Hunt - Wasn't awful for us but 1,5m was too much - Negative Signing
Watkins - 1m seemed cheap from Norwich but wasn't good enough - Negative Signing
Eisa - Wasn't good enough, but worth the risk, sold and didn't make a big loss
Maenpaa - Done okay when called upon, shouldn't have extended his contract though
Adelukan - Cheap purchase, wasn't good enough, no profit / no loss
Kalas - Been solid for us and has won promotion with every club hes been at in this league, was brilliant on loan - Positive signing
Palmer - Looked good on loan 
Dasilva - Again looked good on loan
Marinovic - Came in as cheap cover for short term, not bad, not good
Semenyo - Promoted from youth team by Johnson

That summer Johnson sold Flint for 7m off the back of 2 good seasons under Johnson, hes not worth 10% of that now. Got 10m for Bobby Reid, off the back of one good season and sold Bryan for 6m, a player Johnson improved over the time he was here for 6m. 18/19 was a great business season for Johnson.

19/20 Season

Kalas - 8m signing, but was quality on loan and was the sort of central defender we needed. Hes been solid for us and still key player - Positive Signing
Massengo - Bought as a long term sell for profit type player, we will prob break even as club have not got him to extend contract. - Positive Signing
Wells - 4m for a quality player at this level was good business. We may not make money on him, but it is not LJ fault Wells is not wanted by Pearson because he doesn't his style of play. He has neither been bad or good.
Palmer - 3.5m and Probably one of Johnson's biggest flops. Great on loan, but shocking since and we will struggle to offload - Negative Signing
Dasilva - 2m good signing and been decent enough for us. Only 24 and wont lose money on him when we sell him on.
Bentley - 2m and quality keeper, been brilliant for us. Positive Signing
Nagy - 1.8m didnt work out, and we sold him on for a small loss. Neither good or bad
Szmodics - Waste of money for us, but been solid elsewhere - Negative signing
Williams - Quality one season for us, not on big money - Positive signing
Gilmartin - Wasnt good enough, but cheap
Rowe - Wasnt good enough but cheap
Cundy - Signed cheaply and now broken into first team
Benkovic - Loan deal, wasnt good or bad
Afobe - Quality until injured, was not Johnsons fault

Got 900k for Pack who was going out of contract, good recovery of some funds. Got 20m for Webster, 9m for Brownhill and 13m for Kelly.

Now when Johnson signed Massengo, Kalas, Wells, Palmer, Bentley and Dasilva for 27m collectively and probably good wages, no one in their right mind expected Covid and pre Covid we were still flirting with the playoffs. City signed these thinking that at least 3 of them would have strong sell on value and that 2 of them added quality we needed.
The fact Covid came along, killed the transfer market and meant players we had signed pre covid left for free, bare in mind we have not received a fee for a player in the last 18 months! This is not Johnsons fault. He is blamed for 38m of losses, but spent 27m pre covid, it is not his fault Covid happened and players were unable to be sold.
Without Covid we would have prob sold Diedhiou for about 3m, and could have been in a strong position to sell progressing players for profit, Also account for losses from no gates and so on.

Whilst spending 27m on players that summer has accounted for much of the big loss, what happened 6 months after most were signed should not be blamed on Johnson.

If you look above his transfer dealings kept us competitive and he signed more good players than bad, but a lot of neutral players.

The reason we lost 38m was not because of Johnson, but because Covid crippled the transfer system and we were unable to sell players we would have normally tried to sell, and were left with some high purchases on decent wages at a time the club was hit with a pandemic.

Selling Semenyo, & Massengo for about 25m collectively, would count as profit from Johnson players, and would bring that 38m loss down to 13m loss, factor in covid at say 6m and thats 7m loss, which is about normal for this club.

Johnson's transfers didnt cripple this club, covid did and inability to sell anyone the last 2 years.

One could argue the players that Holden and Pearson have signed, albeit without fees to pay, have not been good enough to impact the team at all!

[MelksRed]

Nobody has a choice. The Club belongs to SL.....his choice is the one that matters. Be that good or bad. Save yourselves the wasted effort. 

 

 

[Davefevs]

3 hours ago, robin for life said:

I may be considered Pro Lee Johnson and it will anger most, but he is a better manager than what we have now. People chastise his recruitment but its actually nonsense. We played better football under Johnson and looked like a top half team, we now look like relegation awaiting to happen. People go on about the £39m loss, as if its all his fault, are people forgetting COVID!!! He was sacked in the season that had to be broken down because of Covid and at a time clubs had no money to buy players and it was behind closed doors. The fact was when he was preparing for the 19/20 season I doubt anyone expected Covid to come along, this meant purchases made that season were based on a normal budget and also with the expectation, that come the following summer certain players would be sold on. The world of football changed, and the clubs outlay and income was massively affected. You can't put the blame of £39m losses on a managers head, when Covid crippled it in more ways then one! When you look at Johnson's signings how bad really were they, I've broken them down here in each Full year he was in charge. My opinion his recruitment was not as bad as people think,

 

2016 - 2017 Season

Lee Tomlin - Fans demanded this, brilliant on loan, ultimately big flop, but LJ is not the blame for this, the fans wanted this signing more than anyone , plus we didn't lose much on him, by selling to Cardiff
Magnússon - Good quality defender for City, ended up being sold on for profit - Positive Signing
Djuric - Big flop admittedly but was at the right age and price (1.6m) that had it worked out, would have had sell on value
Taylor Moore - Huge flop but 1.5m at the time for an England under 20 player, no one was whining about him when we signed him but he was a flop. 
Engvall - Probably Johnson's worse signing, decent money paid, showed nothing, left for peanuts Negative Signing
O'Dowda - Highly rated when signed for 1m, may not be the standard we need now, but had 5 years here and been a first team player the whole time. For £1m, he has been a solid signing.
Matt Taylor - Signed to piss off the Gas, no other reason. Didn't lose money, wasn't bad or good for us.
Hegeler - Brought in cheaply because of top flip experience in Germany, wasn't very good but at 250K he wasn't expensive.
O'Neill - Done a job for the time he was here, he was free and played a number of games and was OK at this level.
Brownhill - Signed on a free, sold for massive profit - Excellent Business
Girolamo - Cheap buy for academy, never progressed, no loss no profit
Paterson - Quality signing for us, and was key player for 4 years. Still solid at this level - Positive Signing
Bailey Wright - Decent captain at this level for us, wasn't expensive and was a solid part of our defence for 3 seasons - Not good or bad signing
Adam Matthews - Loan Signing who was good the year before, but poor, - Negative Signing
Cotterill - Cheap loan, understand why we done it, didn't work out, but was low risk and wasnt bad or good.
Giefer - Came in to put pressure on Fielding, was shit. - Negative Signing
Tammy - Probably the best player I've seen at the gate in a long time - Positive Signing
Ekstrand - Short term, injury prone, cheap. Neither good or bad
Vyner - Signed on potential and cheaply. Hasn't been bad for us, and whilst not up to this level, hes not cost the club big money

2017 - 2018 Season

Diedhiou - 5.4m questionable but was not Johnson's fault he left on a free, and done well in his 3 years at the club. Positive Signing
Baker - Injury prone but was solid in first 2 years here and Pearson renewed his contract. Positive signing
Eliasson - Very good for us and sold for near enough what we paid for him - Positive Signing
Walsh - Paid 1m which looked good business at the time, was too lightweight for this level - Negative Signing
Pisano - Solid for the time we had him
Steele - Good backup keeper 
Diony - Glad we only loaned him, he was the worse striker I've seen since Bas Savage - Negative Signing
Kent - May have been shit for us, but was considered a coup at the time, now a class player at Rangers, not Johnsons fault it didn't work out
Leko - Struggled at this level but was only on loan
Woodrow - Didn't work out here, again cheap loan

Worth noting that during this season Johnson promoted Bobby Reid and Lloyd Kelly to the first team, players  who we would go on to make massive profits on. 

18/19 Season

Webster - Outstanding for us, sold for big profit - Positive Signing
Wiemann - Bought for 2m and worth every penny, Positive Signing
Hunt - Wasn't awful for us but 1,5m was too much - Negative Signing
Watkins - 1m seemed cheap from Norwich but wasn't good enough - Negative Signing
Eisa - Wasn't good enough, but worth the risk, sold and didn't make a big loss
Maenpaa - Done okay when called upon, shouldn't have extended his contract though
Adelukan - Cheap purchase, wasn't good enough, no profit / no loss
Kalas - Been solid for us and has won promotion with every club hes been at in this league, was brilliant on loan - Positive signing
Palmer - Looked good on loan 
Dasilva - Again looked good on loan
Marinovic - Came in as cheap cover for short term, not bad, not good
Semenyo - Promoted from youth team by Johnson

That summer Johnson sold Flint for 7m off the back of 2 good seasons under Johnson, hes not worth 10% of that now. Got 10m for Bobby Reid, off the back of one good season and sold Bryan for 6m, a player Johnson improved over the time he was here for 6m. 18/19 was a great business season for Johnson.

19/20 Season

Kalas - 8m signing, but was quality on loan and was the sort of central defender we needed. Hes been solid for us and still key player - Positive Signing
Massengo - Bought as a long term sell for profit type player, we will prob break even as club have not got him to extend contract. - Positive Signing
Wells - 4m for a quality player at this level was good business. We may not make money on him, but it is not LJ fault Wells is not wanted by Pearson because he doesn't his style of play. He has neither been bad or good.
Palmer - 3.5m and Probably one of Johnson's biggest flops. Great on loan, but shocking since and we will struggle to offload - Negative Signing
Dasilva - 2m good signing and been decent enough for us. Only 24 and wont lose money on him when we sell him on.
Bentley - 2m and quality keeper, been brilliant for us. Positive Signing
Nagy - 1.8m didnt work out, and we sold him on for a small loss. Neither good or bad
Szmodics - Waste of money for us, but been solid elsewhere - Negative signing
Williams - Quality one season for us, not on big money - Positive signing
Gilmartin - Wasnt good enough, but cheap
Rowe - Wasnt good enough but cheap
Cundy - Signed cheaply and now broken into first team
Benkovic - Loan deal, wasnt good or bad
Afobe - Quality until injured, was not Johnsons fault

Got 900k for Pack who was going out of contract, good recovery of some funds. Got 20m for Webster, 9m for Brownhill and 13m for Kelly.

Now when Johnson signed Massengo, Kalas, Wells, Palmer, Bentley and Dasilva for 27m collectively and probably good wages, no one in their right mind expected Covid and pre Covid we were still flirting with the playoffs. City signed these thinking that at least 3 of them would have strong sell on value and that 2 of them added quality we needed.
The fact Covid came along, killed the transfer market and meant players we had signed pre covid left for free, bare in mind we have not received a fee for a player in the last 18 months! This is not Johnsons fault. He is blamed for 38m of losses, but spent 27m pre covid, it is not his fault Covid happened and players were unable to be sold.
Without Covid we would have prob sold Diedhiou for about 3m, and could have been in a strong position to sell progressing players for profit, Also account for losses from no gates and so on.

Whilst spending 27m on players that summer has accounted for much of the big loss, what happened 6 months after most were signed should not be blamed on Johnson.

If you look above his transfer dealings kept us competitive and he signed more good players than bad, but a lot of neutral players.

The reason we lost 38m was not because of Johnson, but because Covid crippled the transfer system and we were unable to sell players we would have normally tried to sell, and were left with some high purchases on decent wages at a time the club was hit with a pandemic.

Selling Semenyo, & Massengo for about 25m collectively, would count as profit from Johnson players, and would bring that 38m loss down to 13m loss, factor in covid at say 6m and thats 7m loss, which is about normal for this club.

Johnson's transfers didnt cripple this club, covid did and inability to sell anyone the last 2 years.

One could argue the players that Holden and Pearson have signed, albeit without fees to pay, have not been good enough to impact the team at all!

Absolutely fair you put this side of the debate across.  Do you know why people like me keep posting about “£39m”?  It’s because people like me saw the direction of travel.  Covid just brought the financial mess forward.  It’s not really about the £39m loss.

Quite simply, Revenues starting to plateau at just over £30m…but costs continuing to escalate every year as we paid more and more in fees and wages.  You don’t need to be a financial wizard (or an owner who’s made his riches in that field) to see that eventually bites you on the arse!!  The weird but is our owner, a financial wizard, let it happen. No investor puts their eggs in one basket, yet SL did….he basically subscribed to a “Sustainability” model (sustainable my arse) that relied on transfer profit to offset huge costs, increasing year on year.  Those fees especially committed us to costs (amortisation) beyond LJ’s rein.  Someone is feeling the pinch because of that….Holden started to feel the pinch, but only in not being able to spend much, he still had the benefit of a big squad, numbers-wise.  But it’s Pearson who is taking the real brunt of that.

Johnson’s transfers and were crippling the club (sanctioned by SL / MA).  18th (part Cotts), 17th, 11th, 8th, 12th (last 5 Holden).  Had he stayed in situ how much would he have continued to spend to move us from 12th, upwards again.  Was 12th a blip, or the start of decline.  Because in 19/20 he spent £25m in fees (plus signing on fees, loan fees, agent fees, etc, increased the costs by £6.1m against levelling revenues (even if Covid hadn’t struck)…and we went backwards.

Its fine to say we made good money on certain players.  But the costs incurred in doing so was storing up a load of problems.

The big question, that will get a subjective response, is how would LJ being doing with this squad, under these constraints.  None of us can answer that, but he was moaning back in July 2020, when he’d pretty much been given everything he ever wanted.

And if you count Semenyo and Massengo future transfers as Johnsons, you can’t include Kelly, Bryan, Reid, Flint, Kodjia, etc.  That is called “having your cake and eat it”!!  Semenyo and Massengo also weren’t worth £25m last season (that’s the year of £39m loss).  Personally I don’t think they’re worth that today either.

 

[Sheltons Army]

8 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Absolutely fair you put this side of the debate across.  Do you know why people like me keep posting about “£39m”?  It’s because people like me saw the direction of travel.  Covid just brought the financial mess forward.  It’s not really about the £39m loss.

Quite simply, Revenues starting to plateau at just over £30m…but costs continuing to escalate every year as we paid more and more in fees and wages.  You don’t need to be a financial wizard (or an owner who’s made his riches in that field) to see that eventually bites you on the arse!!  The weird but is our owner, a financial wizard, let it happen. No investor puts their eggs in one basket, yet SL did….he basically subscribed to a “Sustainability” model (sustainable my arse) that relied on transfer profit to offset huge costs, increasing year on year.  Those fees especially committed us to costs (amortisation) beyond LJ’s rein.  Someone is feeling the pinch because of that….Holden started to feel the pinch, but only in not being able to spend much, he still had the benefit of a big squad, numbers-wise.  But it’s Pearson who is taking the real brunt of that.

Johnson’s transfers and were crippling the club (sanctioned by SL / MA).  18th (part Cotts), 17th, 11th, 8th, 12th (last 5 Holden).  Had he stayed in situ how much would he have continued to spend to move us from 12th, upwards again.  Was 12th a blip, or the start of decline.  Because in 19/20 he spent £25m in fees (plus signing on fees, loan fees, agent fees, etc, increased the costs by £6.1m against levelling revenues (even if Covid hadn’t struck)…and we went backwards.

Its fine to say we made good money on certain players.  But the costs incurred in doing so was storing up a load of problems.

The big question, that will get a subjective response, is how would LJ being doing with this squad, under these constraints.  None of us can answer that, but he was moaning back in July 2020, when he’d pretty much been given everything he ever wanted.

And if you count Semenyo and Massengo future transfers as Johnsons, you can’t include Kelly, Bryan, Reid, Flint, Kodjia, etc.  That is called “having your cake and eat it”!!  Semenyo and Massengo also weren’t worth £25m last season (that’s the year of £39m loss).  Personally I don’t think they’re worth that today either.

 

Simply , an excellent post and one everyone should read at least twice and digest IMHO

[BCFC_Dan]

4 hours ago, Spike said:

When you consider that means Pearson has lost over double the players he's been able to bring in and has only made one paid purchase it's fair to say he's hardly been given the tools to fix the issues this club has left him with.

If we sack Pearson tomorrow we're hardly going to get anyone in who can change the situation or the mentality of the club short of doing what Pearson is already doing.

I'm on the fence about Pearson overall. I'm not sure I would sack him right now, but I wouldn't have hired him in the first place.

I'm not going to argue that it's not a big job he's got, but it seems to me that players who were previously quite adequate (including ones he chose to sign) are suddenly nowhere near good enough in the eyes of some, because the alternative would be admitting that Pearson simply isn't doing a very good job. Nothing is going to turn the current squad into one that any manager could get into the top six, but I think there are managers who could achieve rather more with them than Pearson is. That said, I accept that he may be trading success now for development of players for the future, which is entirely right.

At the end of the day, it's a tough job, he's the man tasked with doing it and I wouldn't expect to see much success in the short term. However, I've also seen nothing that gives me any confidence that he will have success in the long term. All I see is a very abrasive man delivering mostly poor performances and blaming the players for everything that goes wrong.

The board at City are always castigated for choosing the "cheap option". I'm more than a little concerned that all they've done this time is pay a lot more money* for their cheap option.

* No, I don't know what he's paid. I'm prepared to be surprised but I bet it's more than Dean Holden was getting.

[Clutton Caveman]

11 hours ago, Rich said:

A strange perception of things. You state that S L surrounds himself with yes men. You state that a hobby chairman then employs a football man to run the show and, that we have no such football man.

Pearson is certainly not a yes man and, I would argue that he is a trusted football man, employed by S L for his guidance. That's what has enabled him to make tough decisions, use his experience to tell where things are not right. Then when he does identify those things, you call him an ego driven dinosaur.

It's obvious that you don't like him, probably based on the fact that we're not wining games you think we should, with the tools available to him. I'm of the belief that those tools are blunt and of lower quality than the tools we invested heavily in, paying Dewalt prices, and getting a yellow copy from Wilko. 

In my opinion, I expect Pearson to stay at the club as an overseer/DOF and SL will again employ a young hungry coach that does what he's told and works within certain parameters. Then when the dust settles, Pearson will be removed and we'll have the old LJ scenario again.

 

 

How can you rate Pearson when you see our total lack of organisation in general play and offensive and defensive set pieces. He keeps saying the players are not carrying out their assigned tasks. Why is that? man management and motivation are key modern manager skills. We may not have the best squad in the league but we don't have the worst but NP has shown a total lack of ability to get a team on the field playing with motivation and organisation.  His arrogance leads us to ignore the loan system when it is an essential factor in Championship life. Many people sang the "more time" song with LJ and Ashton. They got more time and look where it left us. If SL had a senior football man at his side, he would not have employed a coach who was drifting nicely into retirement and was totally out of touch with modern tactics. He certainly would not have retained him after he provided zero improvement after DH was sacked. I think our current CEO is a nice man but he is an administrator not a football man.

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, BCFC_Dan said:

I'm not going to argue that it's not a big job he's got, but it seems to me that players who were previously quite adequate (including ones he chose to sign) are suddenly nowhere near good enough in the eyes of some, because the alternative would be admitting that Pearson simply isn't doing a very good job.

Good post overall. My challenge is that you say players are playing worse but make no reference to those that are playing better.

Id hazard a guess that Pearson is on the same money as Johnson was at the end of his tenure, between £500k-600k p.a. Holden I’m sure would’ve been on much less, say half of that.

[BCFC_Dan]

47 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Good post overall. My challenge is that you say players are playing worse but make no reference to those that are playing better.

I don't say they're playing worse, it just seems to me that general view of the fault has shifted from manager (Johnson, Holden) to players, now that Pearson is in charge. I do think a defence with two full international centre halves should be rather more solid than it is, but I accept that there is more to defending than having two individually good players.

Which players would you say are playing considerably better under Pearson? Weimann seems to be doing well but he was injured for Holden and never let Lee Johnson down. Massengo has performed well, but I'm not sure he'd have played so much if Pearson had had his senior midfielders available all season. I think Pearson can be credited for playing many of the young players when he hasn't always had to (he could have insisted on bringing in more experience from outside but he hasn't), but his approach to them seems quite "sink or swim". Hopefully it's more subtle than that behind the scenes.

[robin for life]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

 

And if you count Semenyo and Massengo future transfers as Johnsons, you can’t include Kelly, Bryan, Reid, Flint, Kodjia, etc.  That is called “having your cake and eat it”!!  Semenyo and Massengo also weren’t worth £25m last season (that’s the year of £39m loss).  Personally I don’t think they’re worth that today either.

 

I didn't count Kodji, but I would count Kelly, Reid, Semenyo and Massengo. These were players LJ signed or promoted to the first team and gave their chance to, without LJ here, there's a chance they wouldn't have been purchased or promoted. Bryan & Flint fair enough, but both improved under LJ and got their big moves because of LJ's training. LJ was a very good coach, he just lacked the people skills needed with some, but he was influential with the youngsters and helped a lot of players develop. We could do a lot worse than have him scouting for youth players and managing our U-23s, a job I think he would be perfect for and would be a lot less pressure for him and I think both parties would mutually benefit from. He is a got spotter of young talent, he has shown that at Barnsley, here and at Sunderland.

[cheshire_red]

I was very happy when we appointed Nigel Pearson and I'm as happy he is still here. Deserves more respect considering all the issues the club has.