FFP Reform Incoming- UEFA

[Mr Popodopolous]

Not really read many of the details yet but it appears that it will be reformed or overhauled!!

Took long enough to get the message out there about it in general! Now it sounds like a new version is on its way. 

Unsure how this will impact domestic Leagues, let alone the Championship?

https://sempremilan.com/ffp-overhaul-new-york-times

Saw something online earlier about a) A 70% limit on Football Expenditure and b) 3 seasons for transition. God knows in short...may look it up in more depth in the coming days.

Plus seen reference to in-season monitoring by UEFA, with possible sanctions listed as Points deductions and relegation from the Champions League!

Edited March 22, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

16 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Not really read many of the details yet but it appears that it will be reformed or overhauled!!

Took long enough to get the message out there about it in general! Now it sounds like a new version is on its way. 

Unsure how this will impact domestic Leagues, let alone the Championship?

https://sempremilan.com/ffp-overhaul-new-york-times

Saw something online earlier about a) A 70% limit on Football Expenditure and b) 3 seasons for transition. God knows in short...may look it up in more depth in the coming days.

Plus seen reference to in-season monitoring by UEFA, with possible sanctions listed as Points deductions and relegation from the Champions League!

Looks like it’s closer to SCMP than P&S.

http://www.financialfairplay.co.uk/scmp.php

[Rocking Red Cyril]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Looks like it’s closer to SCMP than P&S.

http://www.financialfairplay.co.uk/scmp.php

Ok then for the ones that FFP is just another thing to have no idea about.

Is SCMP or P&S going to save us from potential points deductions next session as FFP was expected to give us. And does this mean we have money for transfers now and do not have to sell Scott, Semenyou or HNM?

[Davefevs]

Some useful tweets from Kieran Maguire

 

There are a few tweets giving different views of whether clubs would struggle to hit the 70%.

[chinapig]

6 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Some useful tweets from Kieran Maguire

 

There are a few tweets giving different views of whether clubs would struggle to hit the 70%.

So it will favour the richest clubs? I'm shocked I tell you, shocked.

[Rocking Red Cyril]

15 hours ago, Rocking Red Cyril said:

Ok then for the ones that FFP is just another thing to have no idea about.

Is SCMP or P&S going to save us from potential points deductions next session as FFP was expected to give us. And does this mean we have money for transfers now and do not have to sell Scott, Semenyou or HNM?

I take it Dave I not close to the truth then 

[Davefevs]

6 minutes ago, Rocking Red Cyril said:

I take it Dave I not close to the truth then 

Sorry was your initial post aimed at me to answer?

The easy bit is that for City, FFP and P&S are the same thing!!!  As it stands we have the 15 months, including 2 transfer windows to sort ourselves out.  We either cut costs, improve revenue (inc transfers) or a combo of both.  I honestly don’t think we will take a points deductions, I.e. we will find a way to comply.

If this new fangled idea was to come in to the Champ for next season, and applied at 70%, then about 21/24 Championship clubs would be over 70%!!!

 

[Rocking Red Cyril]

6 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Sorry was your initial post aimed at me to answer?

The easy bit is that for City, FFP and P&S are the same thing!!!  As it stands we have the 15 months, including 2 transfer windows to sort ourselves out.  We either cut costs, improve revenue (inc transfers) or a combo of both.  I honestly don’t think we will take a points deductions, I.e. we will find a way to comply.

If this new fangled idea was to come in to the Champ for next season, and applied at 70%, then about 21/24 Championship clubs would be over 70%!!!

 

Thank Dave makes much more sense .I might have taught GCSE maths but FFP really goes into areas of maths I not wanna know

[Mr Popodopolous]

Bit of info in yesterday's Times by Martyn Ziegler- albeit still early days of course.

Three pillars is referenced, and these are listed as:

• "Squad cost control"- Whereby clubs limited to spending 70% of their revenue- this goes back to the start a bit what with "Relevant Income", I assume some of these definitions will still apply- anyway yes 70% on player wages, transfers and agents fees. This can be extended through selling players BUT transfer income is averaged out over 6 years. I suppose if you make a £20m profit on disposal in year 1, £10m the following year, £5m in year 3, £2m loss in year 4, £5m profit in year 5 and £4m in Year 6 then your average is £42m- which means you can bump it up by £4.9m in a year or per year, sounds a logistical nightmare!
• "Financial stability"- The UEFA loss limit will be doubled- subject to equity it'll be 3 year losses of 60m rather than 30m- but there are some suggestions that there will no longer be excludable costs such as Infrastructure, youth academy, even women's football! The higher loss limit would be offset or eaten into by no exclusions...
• "Overdue payables"- A certain East Midlands club should take note! UEFA intend to kick clubs out for falling foul of this. I suppose kicking a club out of the EFL is perhaps a bit much but points deductions seem a fair solution.

The good news is that there is a 3 year transition period- 90% in 2023, 80% in 2024 and 70%- the intended limit- in 2025. 

Another interesting detail is that it should cover a calendar year rather than a football season accounts...

See my line in Point 1- sounds a logistical nightmare on early analysis! Sounds like points deductions and real time as opposed to after the fact analysis are on the table- so are fines and sliding scales.

Edited March 25, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

8 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Bit of info in yesterday's Times by Martyn Ziegler- albeit still early days of course.

Three pillars is referenced, and these are listed as:

• "Squad cost control"- Whereby clubs limited to spending 70% of their revenue- this goes back to the start a bit what with "Relevant Income", I assume some of these definitions will still apply- anyway yes 70% on player wages, transfers and agents fees. This can be extended through selling players BUT transfer income is averaged out over 6 years. I suppose if you make a £20m profit on disposal in year 1, £10m the following year, £5m in year 3, £2m loss in year 4, £5m profit in year 5 and £4m in Year 6 then your average is £42m- which means you can bump it up by £4.9m in a year or per year, sounds a logistical nightmare!
• "Financial stability"- The UEFA loss limit will be doubled- subject to equity it'll be 3 year losses of 60m rather than 30m- but there are some suggestions that there will no longer be excludable costs such as Infrastructure, youth academy, even women's football! The higher loss limit would be offset or eaten into by no exclusions...
• "Overdue payables"- A certain East Midlands club should take note! UEFA intend to kick clubs out for falling foul of this. I suppose kicking a club out of the EFL is perhaps a bit much but points deductions seem a fair solution.

The good news is that there is a 3 year transition period- 90% in 2023, 80% in 2024 and 70%- the intended limit- in 2025. 

Another interesting detail is that it should cover a calendar year rather than a football season accounts...

See my line in Point 1- sounds a logistical nightmare on early analysis! Sounds like points deductions and real time as opposed to after the fact analysis are on the table- so are fines and sliding scales.

PoF pod yesterday was suggesting 70% of “income minus wages and amortisation”…which is far simpler. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

PoF pod yesterday was suggesting 70% of “income minus wages and amortisation”…which is far simpler. 

Cheers. Haven't listened to it as much as I should,, got a few to catch up on...yes when put like that it sounds not too bad.

[downendcity]

On 23/03/2022 at 17:50, Davefevs said:

Sorry was your initial post aimed at me to answer?

The easy bit is that for City, FFP and P&S are the same thing!!!  As it stands we have the 15 months, including 2 transfer windows to sort ourselves out.  We either cut costs, improve revenue (inc transfers) or a combo of both.  I honestly don’t think we will take a points deductions, I.e. we will find a way to comply

So are you saying that lying, cheating, bending/breaking the rules, general deviousness, underhand actions and bullshit are no longer acceptable courses of action for championship club's to avoid ffp sanctions? 

[Midred]

9 minutes ago, downendcity said:

So are you saying that lying, cheating, bending/breaking the rules, general deviousness, underhand actions and bullshit are no longer acceptable courses of action for championship club's to avoid ffp sanctions? 

Not unless you're in administration!

[Waconda]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

PoF pod yesterday was suggesting 70% of “income minus wages and amortisation”…which is far simpler. 

I like this idea in principle. 

[ExiledAjax]

2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Another interesting detail is that it should cover a calendar year rather than a football season accounts...

Seems odd to me. So English clubs would have three financial dates - Tax Year, Season end/contract end date, and FFP date. That won't cause any confusion will it.

[Mr Popodopolous]

6 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Seems odd to me. So English clubs would have three financial dates - Tax Year, Season end/contract end date, and FFP date. That won't cause any confusion will it.

Think it's still a work in progress- and I agree, muddies the water badly! Perhaps Europe wide.

[ExiledAjax]

4 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Think it's still a work in progress- and I agree, muddies the water badly! Perhaps Europe wide.

Yeh. We seem to be witnessing something of a regulatory arms race at the moment, especially in England. Seems to me like football itself is rapidly trying to prove that it can regulate itself in the hope that this either removes the need for the independent regulator, or ensures that the Prem has a strong argument for weakening the initial powers of that regulator.

Boris said in PMQs yesterday that “I do agree with my honourable friend the Member for Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch), who has just conducted a review on the matter, that we should indeed have an independent regulator for football,”

So I'd say we can be 99% sure that regulation will be in the Queen's Speech in May.

My suspicion is that the Prem is leaning on UEFA to get something in place quickly so as to ensure that the regulator is limited to items of corporate governance and fan engagement rather than also dealing with finances. UEFA would likely agree that it would quite like the financial governance of it's most lucrative member league, to be outside of the remit of a new third party regulator.

Ultimately, I am kind of ok with this I think - subject to the precise rules that come into place. If one result of the FLR is that football is forced to reform its FFP rules, then that is good. We can see how it plays out, and once the regulator is in place they could extend its remit should these FFP rules prove faulty. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2022/04/08/cost-controls-wild-west-championship-finally-sight/?

Just as we are potentially getting to grips with the old one collectively, here we go again!! Plus, it could be pretty soon.

It also mentions that our revised Covid loss claims were £30m...struggling to see it myself!

Sounds like a move to the UEFA ones is on the cards- you surely can't switch around mid cycle?

Edited April 8, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Sleepy1968]

23 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2022/04/08/cost-controls-wild-west-championship-finally-sight/?

Just as we are potentially getting to grips with the old one collectively, here we go again!! Plus, it could be pretty soon.

It also mentions that our revised Covid loss claims were £30m...struggling to see it myself!

Sounds like a move to the UEFA ones is on the cards- you surely can't switch around mid cycle?

"The current model leaves the likes of Bristol City and Cardiff City racking up losses of £2m-plus a month merely to remain competitive in the division."

Surely the telegraph is wrong on both points concerning us ...

[Mr Popodopolous]

12 minutes ago, Sleepy1968 said:

"The current model leaves the likes of Bristol City and Cardiff City racking up losses of £2m-plus a month merely to remain competitive in the division."

Surely the telegraph is wrong on both points concerning us ...

I mean in theory, £2m per month could be possible- pre tax loss of say £2m a month minus estimated FFP allowances=£5m and minus another £2.5m covid addback/allowance...although I think it's a little on the high side but it might be in that ballpark.

Remember that transfer profits helped to prop up our accounts for a few years before and we can speculate but we don't know how far revenue has recovered post Covid. My estimates though take us below £2m a month but not hugely.

Edited April 8, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[CyderInACan]

On 25/03/2022 at 17:11, ExiledAjax said:

Seems odd to me. So English clubs would have three financial dates - Tax Year, Season end/contract end date, and FFP date. That won't cause any confusion will it.

As long as we don’t employ the guy in charge of contract extensions at the Bears we’ll be ok 

[Sleepy1968]

3 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I mean in theory, £2m per month could be possible- pre tax loss of say £2m a month minus estimated FFP allowances=£5m and minus another £2.5m covid addback/allowance...although I think it's a little on the high side but it might be in that ballpark.

Remember that transfer profits helped to prop up our accounts for a few years before and we can speculate but we don't know how far revenue has recovered post Covid. My estimates though take us below £2m a month but not hugely.

Wow. I'm obviously in denial because I've kept up to date with all the FFP posts. At least Cardiff have a bit of an excuse for screwing up so badly (Premier League football). I suppose when you consider 15% of these losses can be attributed to the wages of our three highest paid players then the loss rate begins to make sense.