Players positions

[Rich]

12 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

I was always on the Gerrard side of the Lampard-Gerrard argument. Miles better player.

For Chelsea, Lampard played often as the “1” off Drogba and his average position was akin to a second striker. Huge number of shots taken. When asked to play in a midfield 2 for England, he couldn’t do it - instinctively pushed forward and meant our best CM had to sit as opposed to go box to box, detracting from his game. As we also didn’t have the same focal point as Chelsea, Lampard didn’t pick up as many “spares” to shoot in the forward position.

I’ll die on this hill, but Lampard was a very overrated footballer for who found a system that was a perfect fit but was poor - and unintelligent on the pitch - outside of those confines.

England problem for years, the pressure of having to have the best player from the best team as guaranteed starters, regardless of the impact on the team.

[Bristol Rob]

Chris Sutton.

[Gillies Downs Leeds]

Michael Antonio was a full back / winger before being converted to a striker. Matty Cash was a winger / wide mid before converting to full back. Those are another couple in recent times.

[TBW]

46 minutes ago, Lanterne Rouge said:

Didn`t Tins start out as a winger?

He played out wide for us for years.

How young are you?

Edited April 5, 2022 by TBW

[Davefevs]

30 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

I was always on the Gerrard side of the Lampard-Gerrard argument. Miles better player.

For Chelsea, Lampard played often as the “1” off Drogba and his average position was akin to a second striker. Huge number of shots taken. When asked to play in a midfield 2 for England, he couldn’t do it - instinctively pushed forward and meant our best CM had to sit as opposed to go box to box, detracting from his game. As we also didn’t have the same focal point as Chelsea, Lampard didn’t pick up as many “spares” to shoot in the forward position.

I’ll die on this hill, but Lampard was a very overrated footballer who found a system that was a perfect fit but was poor - and unintelligent on the pitch - outside of those confines.

Crikey, almost a replica of my own thoughts, although I’m not quite as critical of Lampard.  Had England had Drogba….

20 minutes ago, Simon79 said:

I might have to join you then! COYR 

[alexukhc]

23 minutes ago, Offside said:

Yes, he sticks in my mind too -  an indifferent midfielder who became a very decent right back. 

Never been replaced

[Rich]

Charles Charlie Charles was rubbish in goal but, Brilliant with the ball at his feet.

[alexukhc]

3 minutes ago, Rich said:

Charles Charlie Charles was rubbish in goal but, Brilliant with the ball at his feet.

Never good with his the nose though

[tin]

45 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

I was always on the Gerrard side of the Lampard-Gerrard argument. Miles better player.

For Chelsea, Lampard played often as the “1” off Drogba and his average position was akin to a second striker. Huge number of shots taken. When asked to play in a midfield 2 for England, he couldn’t do it - instinctively pushed forward and meant our best CM had to sit as opposed to go box to box, detracting from his game. As we also didn’t have the same focal point as Chelsea, Lampard didn’t pick up as many “spares” to shoot in the forward position.

I’ll die on this hill, but Lampard was a very overrated footballer who found a system that was a perfect fit but was poor - and unintelligent on the pitch - outside of those confines.

And Scholes was better than both of them IMO. 

[archie andrews]

18 minutes ago, TBW said:

He played out wide for us for years.

How young are you?

but he did start as a number 3 old school left back for newcastle.....

[Rich]

Bradley Orr. Midfield to right back.

[Lanterne Rouge]

34 minutes ago, TBW said:

He played out wide for us for years.

How young are you?

I meant an out and out winger when he played for Bradford, More of a wide mid/central for us.

Edit: just looked at his time at Newcastle and he was a left back!

[DaveInSA]

1 hour ago, Robbored said:

Many of the Dutch players back then were coached ‘total football’ as young lads and eventually developing into to be very versatile - I wonder what happened to that model of coaching..

When I lived in Cape Town, Ajax (Cape Town) used to talk total football, that was 2002-2017.

My view is that being a goal scorer is more natural, it’s instinct, gut feel, precise and immediate.

Whereas being a talented defender is much more nuanced and skilful. The best defenders hardly make a tackle, and they’re never on their arses sliding tackling all over the show. They read the game, position themselves and stand up.

[Lanterne Rouge]

Just now, DaveInSA said:

When I lived in Cape Town, Ajax (Cape Town) used to talk total football, that was 2002-2017.

My view is that being a goal scorer is more natural, it’s instinct, gut feel, precise and immediate.

Whereas being a talented defender is much more nuanced and skilful. The best defenders hardly make a tackle, and they’re never on their arses sliding tackling all over the show. They read the game, position themselves and stand up.

Was it Maldini that said if I have to make a tackle I`ve made a mistake?

[Silvio Dante]

43 minutes ago, Lanterne Rouge said:

Was it Maldini that said if I have to make a tackle I`ve made a mistake?

There is an insane stat a couple of years ago that Van Dijk made about 10 tackles in a season.

When coaching, you try and impart that a tackle is a last resort. Your key defence is positioning. If that’s right, you don’t need to tackle. This is evidenced in Maldinis statement 

[Waconda]

Playing a 19 year old Centre Forward at Wing Back in a Championship game when there were other options available was a ridiculous decision.

I can't believe that some people have gone so far down the rabbit hole that they attempting to equate this situation to that of Clive Whitehead or Chris Sutton.

We all know it was a mistake, attempting to justify it is embarrassing.

[TBW]

2 hours ago, Lanterne Rouge said:

I meant an out and out winger when he played for Bradford, More of a wide mid/central for us.

Edit: just looked at his time at Newcastle and he was a left back!

Played out on the left for about 6/7 years. It's hardly an example of a player being converted to a different position. A bit like saying David Beckham was a centre midfielder...

[tin]

9 hours ago, Waconda said:

Playing a 19 year old Centre Forward at Wing Back in a Championship game when there were other options available was a ridiculous decision.

I can't believe that some people have gone so far down the rabbit hole that they attempting to equate this situation to that of Clive Whitehead or Chris Sutton.

We all know it was a mistake, attempting to justify it is embarrassing.

A selection mistake said with the benefit of hindsight for that one specific game which had no bearing on our season.

Bell had played over an hour at RWB in the home win over Boro and did OK, so I could understand his selection for Birmingham. He hasn’t been selected in that position since. 

Given the injuries and small squad we have, having players who can play more than one position is very useful. 

[GrahamC]

13 hours ago, chinapig said:

Gerry Sweeney played midfield and full back.

Trevor Tainton, winger who became one of our best ever midfielders imo.

Sween did a decent job at Centre Half a few times too, what a player.

[GrahamC]

3 minutes ago, tin said:

A selection mistake said with the benefit of hindsight for that one specific game which had no bearing on our season.

Bell had played over an hour at RWB in the home win over Boro and did OK, so I could understand his selection for Birmingham. He hasn’t been selected in that position since. 

Given the injuries and small squad we have, having players who can play more than one position is very useful. 

Yep & as I pointed out previously he did ok there v Coventry as well but that doesn’t fit the “never played there before, out of position” narrative, does it?

[Super]

12 hours ago, Silvio Dante said:

I was always on the Gerrard side of the Lampard-Gerrard argument. Miles better player.

For Chelsea, Lampard played often as the “1” off Drogba and his average position was akin to a second striker. Huge number of shots taken. When asked to play in a midfield 2 for England, he couldn’t do it - instinctively pushed forward and meant our best CM had to sit as opposed to go box to box, detracting from his game. As we also didn’t have the same focal point as Chelsea, Lampard didn’t pick up as many “spares” to shoot in the forward position.

I’ll die on this hill, but Lampard was a very overrated footballer who found a system that was a perfect fit but was poor - and unintelligent on the pitch - outside of those confines.

As a goal scoring midfielder there was nobody better in the PL era. I guess it depends on what you want from a midfielder.

[TRL]

Ruud Gullit.

 

Personally I believe to be the best all-round footballer ever.  Centre Back, Right back, Left Back, Sweeper, Defensive Midfield, Attacking Midfield, Central Midfield, Winger, Striker, he could play all of these positions at the top level of the game.

 

If there has ever been a better all-round footballer, and in turn best footballer ever I am yet to see it.  Granted there were better players in each of these positions, but as a all-round footballer, I think the term banded about now is GOAT

[Waconda]

50 minutes ago, tin said:

A selection mistake said with the benefit of hindsight for that one specific game which had no bearing on our season.

Bell had played over an hour at RWB in the home win over Boro and did OK, so I could understand his selection for Birmingham. He hasn’t been selected in that position since. 

Given the injuries and small squad we have, having players who can play more than one position is very useful. 

A selection mistake - Thank you.

[tin]

13 minutes ago, Waconda said:

A selection mistake - Thank you.

Said with the benefit of hindsight…

If you’re going to quote me, quote the full sentence for context.

Good to see you and your bias are back, VT.

Edited April 6, 2022 by tin

[Waconda]

6 minutes ago, tin said:

Said with the benefit of hindsight…

If you’re going to quote me, quote the full sentence for context.

Good to see you and your bias are back, VT.

But still a selection mistake as much as it pains you to admit.

[grifty]

10 hours ago, Waconda said:

Playing a 19 year old Centre Forward at Wing Back in a Championship game when there were other options available was a ridiculous decision.

I can't believe that some people have gone so far down the rabbit hole that they attempting to equate this situation to that of Clive Whitehead or Chris Sutton.

We all know it was a mistake, attempting to justify it is embarrassing.

I haven't agreed with much you've said that I've seen over the last couple of days, but I agree with this.

Trying to justify playing a forward player with less than what, 3 championship appearances under his belt at RWB/RB was not a good decision. People saying it's worth a go because Ray Cashley was once a defender and ended up a goalie is very odd.

We have a rubbish defence as it is, we'd be better off sticking 5 centre backs (if we had that many). Across a back 5 and just let the forward players do their thing.

[Rich]

17 hours ago, Waconda said:

Playing a 19 year old Centre Forward at Wing Back in a Championship game when there were other options available was a ridiculous decision.

I can't believe that some people have gone so far down the rabbit hole that they attempting to equate this situation to that of Clive Whitehead or Chris Sutton.

We all know it was a mistake, attempting to justify it is embarrassing.

As others have stated, this wasn't his first time in that position and, the mistake if you really want to call it that, was rectified at half time. I think you do have to give someone a bit of time to try and turn things around. Maybe he came up against opponents that were just too good for him at this time.

I would assume, you being a "professional" in the game, would know that it is more than possible to play in different positions, and, at no time was I down a rabbit hole trying to equate the situations of years ago with the recent exposure of the young lad. Merely stating a fact that it's been done before and, expanding it as a point of discussion, which worked.

What I find strange is, a "professional" slagging off a fellow professional, suggesting he be sacked/removed/moved on/got rid of, whatever you want to call it.  Plus denouncing in a brash way, anyone who supports that person while disagreeing with your version of events on a public forum.  That I would suggest is embarrassing.

[RedRock]

7 hours ago, grifty said:

I haven't agreed with much you've said that I've seen over the last couple of days, but I agree with this.

Trying to justify playing a forward player with less than what, 3 championship appearances under his belt at RWB/RB was not a good decision. People saying it's worth a go because Ray Cashley was once a defender and ended up a goalie is very odd.

We have a rubbish defence as it is, we'd be better off sticking 5 centre backs (if we had that many). Across a back 5 and just let the forward players do their thing.

Was that Ray Cashley reference related to my post?

If so, my reference was just a generalisation, not specific to Bell. That decision was a bit bonkers frankly (hence my reference to some bizarre selections by Pearson in another thread).

Can only assume Pearson had tested Bell in that defensive role against CoD in training and Bell did enough to convince the manager he could play in that position. Unfortunately, most opposition players pose a greater challenge than CoD, as Pearson found out against Brum. 

[Cowshed]

22 hours ago, Rich said:

Why do some people on here think that some players, maybe being described as a striker, think that for some reason, they can't adapt and play in a different position, as and when necessity dictates? 

 

Because individuals have differing aptitudes and skill sets. Some players really will not, and c annot meet the challenges of differing roles within teams. Famara Diedhiou as a mobile ball retaining and ball winning centre midfielder? That is fanciful. 

[Rich]

2 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Because individuals have differing aptitudes and skill sets. Some players really will not, and c annot meet the challenges of differing roles within teams. Famara Diedhiou as a mobile ball retaining and ball winning centre midfielder? That is fanciful. 

I'm fully aware of that, thanks for pointing out the bleeding obvious. But, that's not what I was implying. I referred to the ability of "some" players, not "all" players. There's also a difference regarding age of players and the expectations on whether they could do this or that type of role. Could Deidhiou have performed a a centre back? Much like has happened on numerous occasions with players of age as well.

I wasn't for one moment suggesting that a skillful slightly built winger would turn out to be a great central defender, or a bruising six foot five defender be a tricky winger. Merely suggesting that to the coaching staff, he'd done enough to give him more game time there.