Where do we go from here

[redapple]

 

A goalkeeper with concentration, a defence with some aggression, a midfield with some speed and stamina, forwards who move in the box ( backwards as well as stationary) and wing(ers)backs who can pull a ball back and not just put it on the big centre backs forehead are all required either by replacing or coaching the current mob. Some collective heart also needed. 
I don't know how to achieve this. I thought NP would have the answers but not so sure now. It’s not rocket science. The basic resources are there but it’s getting them to work together properly and more efficiently. 
 

[cityfan1958]

Very many years ago I was sent on a prospective middle managers course. The whole point of this course was this. 
As a manager or owner of a company you set your goals you wish to achieve, and then the process by which you achieve them. If you believe you have the right goals and processes to achieve them, and if you don’t why have you set them to start with, you them let the processes work. If at the first sign of trouble you panic and change them all you end up doing is going around in a constant circle back to the place you started, and never achieve anything. It’s about having faith in your judgement. 
Two things, a good number of people on this forum might have benefited from this course, and secondly the failure to see a project through should probably be the motto of this club.

[Davefevs]

35 minutes ago, cityfan1958 said:

Very many years ago I was sent on a prospective middle managers course. The whole point of this course was this. 
As a manager or owner of a company you set your goals you wish to achieve, and then the process by which you achieve them. If you believe you have the right goals and processes to achieve them, and if you don’t why have you set them to start with, you them let the processes work. If at the first sign of trouble you panic and change them all you end up doing is going around in a constant circle back to the place you started, and never achieve anything. It’s about having faith in your judgement. 
Two things, a good number of people on this forum might have benefited from this course, and secondly the failure to see a project through should probably be the motto of this club.

I spent time at Warwick Business School and learned similar things.

Whikst having clear strategies, you also need to be able to adapt quickly to changes.  Bristol City are like that tanker stuck in the canal (Panama/Suez), a behemoth of cost that takes ages to turn around.

Personally I don’t think changing the manager is the root cause.  I think he’s succeeded in many respects this season.  My gut feel is that there are ambiguous expectations and lack of reality across the club.

But I do expect SL to wield the axe.  And then we are into unknown territory again. 

[cityfan1958]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I spent time at Warwick Business School and learned similar things.

Whikst having clear strategies, you also need to be able to adapt quickly to changes.  Bristol City are like that tanker stuck in the canal (Panama/Suez), a behemoth of cost that takes ages to turn around.

Personally I don’t think changing the manager is the root cause.  I think he’s succeeded in many respects this season.  My gut feel is that there are ambiguous expectations and lack of reality across the club.

But I do expect SL to wield the axe.  And then we are into unknown territory again. 

The biggest problem is we don’t have an ingrained identity.  Over too many years we have flipped and flopped from one way and another. The inference from Pearsons appointment was that part of his remit was to instil some sort of identity, not something that’s going to be achieved overnight.

[David Brent]

18 hours ago, Dullmoan Tone said:

Do you think we changed our shape to exploit the opportunity, or did we keep on doing the same thing, with the same formation, hoping we might get another header on target?

We had changed shape just before the red card already (Although I think Nigel got that wrong in the first place)

It was a lack of quality that cost us, not a lack of effort. I thought the shape vs 10 was fine. 

[Mr Chappers]

Where do we go? Whoever is manager has to sell assets, sort out finances, recruit wisely, play and encourage the youngsters, and hopefully stay in the Championship. Then rebuild in a financially sustainable way.

All part of the City experience, seen it a few times, spend big, spend badly, pay the price a year or two later.

[Bodiesaffer]

22 hours ago, Tafkarmlf said:

Nowt to do with the owner

Appreciate the sentiment 

Basics on pitch would be a start. 

That's what many are calling for. It shouldn't be this difficult 

Players are thick as pig shit. NP kept it simple these lot only show it how it’s done once every 10 games.

[Loosey Boy]

7 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I spent time at Warwick Business School and learned similar things.

Whikst having clear strategies, you also need to be able to adapt quickly to changes.  Bristol City are like that tanker stuck in the canal (Panama/Suez), a behemoth of cost that takes ages to turn around.

Personally I don’t think changing the manager is the root cause.  I think he’s succeeded in many respects this season.  My gut feel is that there are ambiguous expectations and lack of reality across the club.

But I do expect SL to wield the axe.  And then we are into unknown territory again. 

You honestly think that SL will get rid of Nige? @Davefevs

If he does, surely he will give him the summer and 10-15 games of next season?

Edited April 10, 2022 by Loosey Boy

[Davefevs]

18 minutes ago, Loosey Boy said:

You honestly think that SL will get rid of Nige? @Davefevs

If he does, surely he will give him the summer and 10-15 games of next season?

Yes, I do, because he doesn’t like criticism.

[1960maaan]

7 hours ago, cityfan1958 said:

The biggest problem is we don’t have an ingrained identity.  Over too many years we have flipped and flopped from one way and another. The inference from Pearsons appointment was that part of his remit was to instil some sort of identity, not something that’s going to be achieved overnight.

While I take your point, Pearson has had 14 months. We have made very slight improvements in that time, I'd say we control, hold and move the ball very slightly better than under Holden or Johnson. I know there have been mitigating circumstances, but I expected more. Not miracles, but more in the way of style and control, organisation and system. 
The minimal improvement we have seen I do have doubts about Pearson. Equally I'd worry about any new man coming into our situation. 
It is a tough position, and not one with an easy or obvious solution .
 

[Shaun Taylor]

A question for you loyal bunch. I recall Nigel saying the same a year ago so how can he change things?

 

[RedM]

On 09/04/2022 at 17:43, Snufflelufagus said:

Don't think he reads the forum

He employs others to do that. Seriously, he is aware of comments on social media.

[Numero Uno]

5 minutes ago, billywedlock said:

It is the lack of any strategy these last 20 years plus employing so many people with zero experience of getting us where we are told we are aiming . The SC and Burt turnaround was impressive and they built a hungry close knit group that excelled . Hey so did GJ . SC was not backed as he should have been , we got lost , then appointed 2 people who were blogging their way forward . As soon as the L1 team was broken up we went  back to type. Paying too much for average players . I mean how many times have we done this ? Where was the plan to build a Prem club ? We followed not one exa one of others in the same scenario . Result , the mess we have now . We can change NP ( but who ??? ) yet the issues are the same . It took 20 years to get a decent training ground . We have had no guidance with expertise at the top of the club and this is why SL has wasted millions . He has not taken advice or employed people who have an idea or experience in how to progress . He told all the fans it’s his money his club . 
 

Strangely, we probably have in Gould and Pearson 2 people who can actually put together a cohesive plan to sort our malaise . But we have an unhappy fanbase due to the current malaise lasting years and wanting an instant fix . That is fanciful thinking . This is not change Pearson and we are sorted . It is deeper than that . It is going to need a comprehensive overhaul . Yes change NP , maybe there is so done better , but the real issues remain and seem no closer to being sorted .

Take recruitment, so much talk on here , yet the club are floundering . Brentford led the way , yet we decided to go down a route of spending  millions on players that were already known not to be Prem level now or in the future . It is surreal to look at it and what the club were thinking . We have not replicated any model of success . It went random with Ashton , LJand SL playing .  There is a reason why we are nowhere near the Prem despite soending millions . Yet few seem to want to accept this or more importantly actually devise any form of plan. Change Pearson , he is crap . Ok , but no one comes up with any realistic options , or recognise how far off our squad is , then add in a financial melt down . 
 

its a mess and needs clarity . Moaning is fine , but we need action . But not fantasy wishes . Real action .

All that requires a clear plan, bravery to stick with the plan if things go wrong, a structure where changing the Manager doesn’t change the plan. A club of our means needs to be best in class at extracting value for money because we’ve got no money. Where is the person at BCFC who can deliver that? We do have a bloke that’s been in charge for over 20 years and with the best of intentions and the guts to put his money forward has tried more cunning plans than Baldrick and failed at every turn. People thinking all it needs is a change of Manager every six months until we get one who delivers a few results just aren’t thinking straight and are missing the root cause of the mess we are in.

[NcnsBcfc]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Yes, I do, because he doesn’t like criticism.

@Davefevs i've just put a large reply on the FBC podcast topic around this.

In essence NP is calling for revolution, not evolution this summer.

I can't see this ending well. It makes the signing of a L1 CB and a L2 RB for £2m this summer just bizarre; when you consider that half the divison spent no money at all.

I'm sure SL would want to give NP more funds for signings, but of course FFP means he can't at present. We're not skint as a club, just hamstrung by previous errors, and our over reliance of a ponzi type transfer policy that was doomed to failure.

We've built this new stadium, and the HPC; and had to take on board the massive operating costs that come with it. Any new owners, are going to have their hands tied in exactly the same way that the current owners have, such is the nonsense of the championship, where the PLs just make the whole division an absolute financial horror story.

So how do we change the position we are in?

The only way really is through a complete revolution over the summer. The board eother have to back NP in whatbhe is trying to do, or they say "thanks, but no thanks". I think i know what their answer will be.

A long hard summer ahead i believe, unless as a club we are willing to take some really hard decisions.

[Kingswood Robin]

I'd like to see a bit more of this

and a bit less of this, absent faceless leadership

[Loosey Boy]

Wonder if SL will do his usual, annual interview with Twentyman on RB when we play Hull at home? 
 

Be really interested to hear his views of the season and his suggestions as to how we look to improve next season…….

[The Coach]

Where do we go from here?

 

[NcnsBcfc]

1 hour ago, billywedlock said:

It is the lack of any strategy these last 20 years plus employing so many people with zero experience of getting us where we are told we are aiming . The SC and Burt turnaround was impressive and they built a hungry close knit group that excelled . Hey so did GJ . SC was not backed as he should have been , we got lost , then appointed 2 people who were blagging  their way forward . As soon as the L1 team was broken up we went  back to type. Paying too much for average players . I mean how many times have we done this ? Where was the plan to build a Prem club ? We followed not one exa one of others in the same scenario . Result , the mess we have now . We can change NP ( but who ??? ) yet the issues are the same . It took 20 years to get a decent training ground . We have had no guidance with expertise at the top of the club and this is why SL has wasted millions . He has not taken advice or employed people who have an idea or experience in how to progress . He told all the fans it’s his money his club . 
 

Strangely, we probably have in Gould and Pearson 2 people who can actually put together a cohesive plan to sort our malaise . But we have an unhappy fanbase due to the current malaise lasting years and wanting an instant fix . That is fanciful thinking . This is not change Pearson and we are sorted . It is deeper than that . It is going to need a comprehensive overhaul . Yes change NP , maybe there is someone  better , but the real issues remain and seem no closer to being sorted .

Take recruitment, so much talk on here , yet the club are floundering . Brentford led the way , yet we decided to go down a route of spending  millions on players that were already known not to be Prem level now or in the future . It is surreal to look at it and what the club were thinking . We have not replicated any model of success . It went random with Ashton , LJ and SL playing .  There is a reason why we are nowhere near the Prem despite soending millions . Yet few seem to want to accept this or more importantly actually devise any form of plan. Change Pearson , he is crap . Ok , but no one comes up with any realistic options , or recognise how far off our squad is , then add in a financial melt down . 
 

its a mess and needs clarity . Moaning is fine , but we need action . But not fantasy wishes . Real action .

Good post @billywedlock

And it goes to the heart of the issue.

We are not skint as a club, just that we've maxed out our financial manoeuvrability under the FFP P&S.

Because of that SL is unable to spend his way out of the mess that has been created. Any new manager coming in now, who have to work with the same restraints that NP is having to work under. There is no magic wand here, and no new owners coming in with fresh funds to give an uplift to the squad etc, FFP has seen to that.

The only way forward is a markedly different approach. That is what NP is calling for, and i don't really believe the Lansdowns are going to buy into it. Hence NP's cryptic comments about "If i'm still here".

Look at the tables that got published earlier around leading goals scored versus goals conceeded. It shows what a basket case of a club we are this season. NP knows this, and is trying to effect change.

The difference for me yesterday is in the past he spoke about players not being on the bus. Now he is basically saying the club itself is not on the bus. Harsh words, but ultimately true.

As a club we've at times thrown money at a problem with wanton abandonment to solve a problem. Without really dealing with the fundamentals of what caused the problem in the first place.

For the club to say we have to do things differently, and not appoint a head if recruitment, or DOF (if indeed that what NP wants) is a sign ofnjust empty words really; and don't get me started on having a Chairman who basically doesn't want to be chairman.

I have my fingers crossed for the summer in the somewhat naive hope that that revolution is coming, and that the board will get behind NP's views.

However i think we all know how this is going to end up. In my eyes you either back NP ( I know taking a chance), or he goes. There's no point trying to fuddle our way through another season, on the basis of trying to stay in the league; awaiting the wonders of 19 players being out of contract at the end of that.

[Davefevs]

17 minutes ago, NcnsBcfc said:

Good post @billywedlock

And it goes to the heart of the issue.

We are not skint as a club, just that we've maxed out our financial manoeuvrability under the FFP P&S.

Because of that SL is unable to spend his way out of the mess that has been created. Any new manager coming in now, who have to work with the same restraints that NP is having to work under. There is no magic wand here, and no new owners coming in with fresh funds to give an uplift to the squad etc, FFP has seen to that.

The only way forward is a markedly different approach. That is what NP is calling for, and i don't really believe the Lansdowns are going to buy into it. Hence NP's cryptic comments about "If i'm still here".

Look at the tables that got published earlier around leading goals scored versus goals conceeded. It shows what a basket case of a club we are this season. NP knows this, and is trying to effect change.

The difference for me yesterday is in the past he spoke about players not being on the bus. Now he is basically saying the club itself is not on the bus. Harsh words, but ultimately true.

As a club we've at times thrown money at a problem with wanton abandonment to solve a problem. Without really dealing with the fundamentals of what caused the problem in the first place.

For the club to say we have to do things differently, and not appoint a head if recruitment, or DOF (if indeed that what NP wants) is a sign ofnjust empty words really; and don't get me started on having a Chairman who basically doesn't want to be chairman.

I have my fingers crossed for the summer in the somewhat naive hope that that revolution is coming, and that the board will get behind NP's views.

However i think we all know how this is going to end up. In my eyes you either back NP ( I know taking a chance), or he goes. There's no point trying to fuddle our way through another season, on the basis of trying to stay in the league; awaiting the wonders of 19 players being out of contract at the end of that.

Spot on Neil.

[Red_Alligator]

14 hours ago, NcnsBcfc said:

Good post @billywedlock

And it goes to the heart of the issue.

We are not skint as a club, just that we've maxed out our financial manoeuvrability under the FFP P&S.

Because of that SL is unable to spend his way out of the mess that has been created. Any new manager coming in now, who have to work with the same restraints that NP is having to work under. There is no magic wand here, and no new owners coming in with fresh funds to give an uplift to the squad etc, FFP has seen to that.

The only way forward is a markedly different approach. That is what NP is calling for, and i don't really believe the Lansdowns are going to buy into it. Hence NP's cryptic comments about "If i'm still here".

Look at the tables that got published earlier around leading goals scored versus goals conceeded. It shows what a basket case of a club we are this season. NP knows this, and is trying to effect change.

The difference for me yesterday is in the past he spoke about players not being on the bus. Now he is basically saying the club itself is not on the bus. Harsh words, but ultimately true.

As a club we've at times thrown money at a problem with wanton abandonment to solve a problem. Without really dealing with the fundamentals of what caused the problem in the first place.

For the club to say we have to do things differently, and not appoint a head if recruitment, or DOF (if indeed that what NP wants) is a sign ofnjust empty words really; and don't get me started on having a Chairman who basically doesn't want to be chairman.

I have my fingers crossed for the summer in the somewhat naive hope that that revolution is coming, and that the board will get behind NP's views.

However i think we all know how this is going to end up. In my eyes you either back NP ( I know taking a chance), or he goes. There's no point trying to fuddle our way through another season, on the basis of trying to stay in the league; awaiting the wonders of 19 players being out of contract at the end of that.

Well said Sir. You very eloquently sum up the status quo. Top posting!

[RobintheRed Red]

On 09/04/2022 at 17:52, tin said:

The Lansdowns are entirely responsible for the situation we’re in — for sacking Cotts, for letting that crook Ashton have anything to do with the club, for appointing LJ, for taking six weeks to appoint Holden. 20+ years and what’s changed on the field? Very little. They refuse to structure the club properly, with a sporting director or DoF, no scouting network, no long-term plan at all, limping from one crisis to another. They are the problem and nothing will change — for better or worse — until they are gone. 

Spot on his fall out with cotts has put us back ten years at least.

[Davefevs]

21 minutes ago, RobintheRed Red said:

Spot on his fall out with cotts has put us back ten years at least.

Him and Burt had a good eye for players, adding to the promotion crew:

• Gray and Maguire
• Fredericks
• Liam Moore
• Baker
• Callum Robinson

[NcnsBcfc]

8 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Him and Burt had a good eye for players, adding to the promotion crew:

• Gray and Maguire
• Fredericks
• Liam Moore
• Baker
• Callum Robinson

What was the issue with Fredericks in the end?

I was on holiday, when he signed; and then 23 days later he was gone.

Another elusive right back that could of been. 

As for Maguire, how close did we actually come to signing him from Hull? Instead we potentially a couple of years later got Webster, possibly the best centre back i've seen for us since the seventies.

[Davefevs]

7 minutes ago, NcnsBcfc said:

What was the issue with Fredericks in the end?

I was on holiday, when he signed; and then 23 days later he was gone.

Another elusive right back that could of been. 

As for Maguire, how close did we actually come to signing him from Hull? Instead we potentially a couple of years later got Webster, possibly the best centre back i've seen for us since the seventies.

Little punched him allegedly!

Allegedly everything was agreed with Maguire and Gray, Cotts went off on hols, to find Pelling had tried to re-negotiate the deals for less (not forgetting Burt was the DoF).  I believe it to be true.  We need a “Cider with Cotts” one day.

[NcnsBcfc]

5 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Little punched him allegedly!

Allegedly everything was agreed with Maguire and Gray, Cotts went off on hols, to find Pelling had tried to re-negotiate the deals for less (not forgetting Burt was the DoF).  I believe it to be true.  We need a “Cider with Cotts” one day.

That would be a massive interview to get for @headhunter.

With regards to Cotts, my eldest was a mascot at Leyton Orient away in the 13/14 season when we won 3-1 (Tyrone Barrett's only goal for us). They were top, and flying; i spent time in the dressing room before the game, and with Cotts as well. Absolutely a top man, and you could tell he was building something special even then.

Not sure of this "i went on holiday" angle; and everything went tits up. Can't help feeling such massive transfers as Gray would have been, then he would have made sure he was here to see it all get signed.

What i've heard, not unreasonably. Is that we were miles apart in terms of wages from what you would expect to offer someone signing for £6m+. So maybe the whole deal was badly executed from start to finish?

Still it would be good to hear SC's version of events.

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, NcnsBcfc said:

That would be a massive interview to get for @headhunter.

With regards to Cotts, my eldest was a mascot at Leyton Orient away in the 13/14 season when we won 3-1 (Tyrone Barrett's only goal for us). They were top, and flying; i spent time in the dressing room before the game, and with Cotts as well. Absolutely a top man, and you could tell he was building something special even then.

Not sure of this "i went on holiday" angle; and everything went tits up. Can't help feeling such massive transfers as Gray would have been, then he would have made sure he was here to see it all get signed.

What i've heard, not unreasonably. Is that we were miles apart in terms of wages from what you would expect to offer someone signing for £6m+. So maybe the whole deal was badly executed from start to finish?

Still it would be good to hear SC's version of events.

When Joe was mascot, Cotts was nowhere near the dressing room, he wanted nothing to do with it pre-match! After the match, Walsall in particular he was great with us.

I won’t get the figures exactly right but it was in the region of:

Gray - £4m / £14k p.w

Maguire - £2.5m / £10k p.w (he’d not set the world alight in his first season at Hull)

Pelling came along, tried to undercut the deals:

Brentford said piss off, we will tout him around, Burnley came in and offered £6m and £18k wages.

Hull said if you want to play silly beggars the price is now £4m.

Someone on here might correct those figs but it was those ball-parks from memory.

The Gayle stuff later in the window is irrelevant to this, as was the subsequent offer for Gray after the season started.

[NcnsBcfc]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

When Joe was mascot, Cotts was nowhere near the dressing room, he wanted nothing to do with it pre-match! After the match, Walsall in particular he was great with us.

I won’t get the figures exactly right but it was in the region of:

Gray - £4m / £14k p.w

Maguire - £2.5m / £10k p.w (he’d not set the world alight in his first season at Hull)

Pelling came along, tried to undercut the deals:

Brentford said piss off, we will tout him around, Burnley came in and offered £6m and £18k wages.

Hull said if you want to play silly beggars the price is now £4m.

Someone on here might correct those figs but it was those ball-parks from memory.

The Gayle stuff later in the window is irrelevant to this, as was the subsequent offer for Gray after the season started.

You're more in the know than me on this. But it does make me laugh now, when you look at those transfer fees, and realise we have absolutely no scope for anything like that in the current FFP picture, and that was 7 years ago.

[tin]

25 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Little punched him allegedly!

Allegedly everything was agreed with Maguire and Gray, Cotts went off on hols, to find Pelling had tried to re-negotiate the deals for less (not forgetting Burt was the DoF).  I believe it to be true.  We need a “Cider with Cotts” one day.

I heard everything was agreed with Maguire and Hull when Cotts went on holiday; the Gray deal still had work to be done. When Cotts came back, both deals were dead in the water. I also heard we were in for Lingard on loan that summer, before he went to Derby. 

If nothing else, that’s the last time we showed clarity both in terms of talent ID and intent, and that came from Burt and Cotts. Ashton initially undermined that and then ripped it all up once he was in office. Look where we are now. 

Edited April 11, 2022 by tin

[SecretSam]

FFS, what a shambles

[Bristol Oil Services]

On 09/04/2022 at 17:47, Tafkarmlf said:

Respect where you are, disagree, unless he's actually picking and training the first XI

In that case would be in total agreement. 

Micro: Nige

Macro: Steve

Aggro: us.