Might Pearson walk?

[Bristol Oil Services]

10 minutes ago, italian dave said:

My feeling is that we are at a crossroads right now. 

I think SL (or whoever) may have made the wrong appointment, and that’s in no way being critical of NP.  We all know that there the styles of play, personalities, strategic approaches that managers adopt at a club can vary enormously. The risk is that when you change managers you end up having to change everything about the club - and that takes time.
SL did that in the past and said  he’d recognised that was a mistake and that he wouldn’t do it again. But he then didn’t seem to be able to think of an option beyond the internal appointment (Holden) to achieve it. And when that failed he reverted to type and just went for a change. He didn’t do what clubs like Brentford and Swansea have done and gone for an external appointment but one who’d absolutely buy into the existing strategy. 

NP talks about the culture and the softness and the weak approach of recent years, but it’s a culture and an approach that saw us finish in the top half of the table three years running. It’s not fundamentally flawed, it’s just an approach, a culture, that’s diametrically opposed to NPs view of the game.

You’re right that he needs time to ‘fix it’, in the sense that fix means ingrain the completely different approach a culture that he sees as the right one. That’s going to involve a complete change of personnel, including potentially a complete overhaul of the academy approach too. 

My worry is that he just won’t get that time. I really can’t see (and NP said as much in the week) that we’re going to be able to afford to change much in the summer. And if we start next season with NP in charge of what’s essentially the same squad as we have now then we will be heading for relegation. I don’t think SL will countenance relegation as part of the long term plan to overhaul the club. So mid next season we risk being back in the search for another new manager and no real sense of direction in the club. 

I’m torn now between what you say, give him the time to do what he has to do (and that’s my instinctive approach every time - including like you with LJ) and a feeling that now is the time to cut and run. I’ve no idea who, or who’d come mind you! 

The "existing strategy" was creaking, wasn’t it?

[italian dave]

4 hours ago, billywedlock said:

We need at least one person at the club who is up for the battle . He won’t walk . We have too many rolling around on the floor already . The club is a mess and it needs people who will and can change us from such a weak set up . He needs 3 years , then we might have the basis for a change . Right now we are in turmoil and it needs careful navigation and people with some backbone . 

I’d love to think you’re right, and maybe in three years time you’ll be proved right. The club is certainly a mess right now. But two questions for you - and these aren’t intended to argue against what you say, just genuinely interested.

Would you accept a relegation as part of those 3 years?

And, based on what we saw today, and have seen the last few weeks, can you see next season being anything other than a relegation season (assuming no points deductions for other clubs)? 

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, Bristol Oil Services said:

The "existing strategy" was creaking, wasn’t it?

Was meant to be sustainable wasnt it?  That was the strap-line!

[Bristol Oil Services]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 

The silence continues. 

On the One Show the other week on the telly, a Doc was talking about sleep, a big Oxford sleep census, and it turnts out the poorest sleepers are up north, the best down south. And they sleep best of all, apparently, in Guernsey. 

So, I think Steve is asleep.

[Davefevs]

Just now, Bristol Oil Services said:

On the One Show the other week on the telly, a Doc was talking about sleep, a big Oxford sleep census, and it turnts out the poorest sleepers are up north, the best down south. And they sleep best of all, apparently, in Guernsey. 

So, I think Steve is asleep.

I bet they sleep well in Guernsey

[REDOXO]

4 hours ago, SecretSam said:

He's had health issues, the club's a mess, no money, possible points deduction, we'll have to sell our young talents...plus fans are unhappy...will he just say "stuff this" and jack it?

If he has medium term health issues maybe. Otherwise no. He wants to build a team out of the crap left by Mr Lansdowns idiots. 

[italian dave]

3 minutes ago, Bristol Oil Services said:

The "existing strategy" was creaking, wasn’t it?

Those implementing it (LJ, and probably even more so MA) were, yes. 

But that doesn’t mean it was fundamentally flawed. A different appointment could have been one that would have adopted that strategy and taken it to the next level. 

[Bristol Oil Services]

1 minute ago, italian dave said:

Those implementing it (LJ, and probably even more so MA) were, yes. 

But that doesn’t mean it was fundamentally flawed. A different appointment could have been one that would have adopted that strategy and taken it to the next level. 

You don't agree with Pearson saying it was "bonkers" ?

[Bristol Oil Services]

5 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I bet they sleep well in Guernsey

Wait till he wakes up 

[ZiderEyed]

6 minutes ago, Bristol Oil Services said:

On the One Show the other week on the telly, a Doc was talking about sleep, a big Oxford sleep census, and it turnts out the poorest sleepers are up north, the best down south. And they sleep best of all, apparently, in Guernsey. 

So, I think Steve is asleep.

Any statistics on sleep walkers/talkers by region?

[Bristol Oil Services]

Just now, ZiderEyed said:

Any statistics on sleep walkers/talkers by region?

I'm off to bed, mate

[italian dave]

12 minutes ago, Bristol Oil Services said:

You don't agree with Pearson saying it was "bonkers" ?

In terms of the recruitment strategy, I think we took it to a level that was bonkers - and that was down to MA, and was probably the reason LJ ultimately failed.

The principle that a club in our position has to buy sensibly and sell at the right time and when it’s right for the club is not bonkers. What’s bonkers is selling for the sake of profit alone even though we have no plan B in place, is buying only with a future sale in mind and not how the player will fit into the team style in the meantime, is making the profit motive  so single minded that players see themselves as a commodity with no buy in to the club. That’s bonkers. 

(And, covid massively changed the goalposts, something no-one could have foreseen)

But I was also talking about the playing strategy, the style of football, the approach we take on the field too. Again, not trying to argue that LJs or NPs are right or wrong - neither is bonkers. Just that they are very different and require completely different personalities, skills and therefore personnel. 

Edited April 9, 2022 by italian dave

[SydneyCity]

With the Lansdown family in charge (and I am an overall supporter of what they’ve done), I can imagine a “this is a family club” mantra permeating through Bristol City - and the definition and application of this is “nice and friendly”.

In reality, the best, and most entertaining, families are defined by a collection of characters and personalities who may not always get on - they may even argue and fight non-stop - but ultimately would do anything for each other when push comes to shove.

You need Uncle Nige chucking truth bombs at the Christmas dinner table.

[Major Isewater]

Largish Nige needs to be given this next transfer window to try to form the team he wants. Realistically if we are still not showing signs of progress by Christmas then everyone needs to accept that a new man should be brought in.  

[Son of Fred]

7 hours ago, SydneyCity said:

With the Lansdown family in charge (and I am an overall supporter of what they’ve done), I can imagine a “this is a family club” mantra permeating through Bristol City - and the definition and application of this is “nice and friendly”.

In reality, the best, and most entertaining, families are defined by a collection of characters and personalities who may not always get on - they may even argue and fight non-stop - but ultimately would do anything for each other when push comes to shove.

You need Uncle Nige chucking truth bombs at the Christmas dinner table.

Good post & eloquently put...

I see the creative writing course was worth the money ...

Indeed,,the Lansdown's need the truth & they need it right between the ears.

[Mattredrobin]

I really hope he stays, we've needed someone like Pearson for years, will say it how it is and if you don't like it then off you pop, we've always been a soft touch on and off the pitch. I get that results and the performance yesterday was shit, but he really does need the time to sort this mess out, he said it would take 3 windows to get to where he wants so I think give him that, he is right with what he said the next manager will have the same problems. 

[Superjack]

The club need to back him to whatever extent is possible this summer. 

The problems at this club extend back throughout the whole of Lansdown's tenure. 

We have only had fleeting success when we have had managers that stand up to him, and the only one of those that he would accept that from was his mate Gary Johnson. 

Coppell saw what was going on and ran for the hills.

He stepped back long enough to let Dawe's man Cotterill get on with it until he couldn't help but interfere with the result that the best manager results-wise went absolutely fruit-loop.

He needs to finally learn. And he needs to do it right now. With Pearson he has someone in between the 'non yes man' that he loved and the 'non yes man' that he hated. He has given him three years to deliver and he needs to suck up the home truths and stick to it.

[Kibs]

I think he has a lot to offer, and he knows the components required to make a CLUB successful. I’m just not convinced he can do that as the first team manager without some of the previous staff he’s been successful with. 

I don’t buy the view that nobody else could do better. Surely in the time he’s been here, It’s more likely that nobody could have done much worse isn’t it? If you looked at a 92 club league table from when Pearson was in charge, I’m fairly sure we’d be very close to the bottom! 

https://experimental361.com/2021/12/30/2021-league-table/amp/
 

I am also getting really fed up with him blaming everyone but himself. He’s part of it whether he likes it or not. Take responsibility and take it on the chin. 

Despite all of that, I’d still like to see him given more time. The summer window and the first 15 or so games of next season at least. If I’m completely honest with myself, at the start of the season I’d have accepted staying up - I just think this squad has a bit more talent than is given credit for and could have accrued quite a few more points. 

In an ideal world, I’d really like to see him in a more senior role with more control at that level but the Lansdowns would never go for that anyway. 

[CliftonCliff]

24 minutes ago, Kibs said:

 I just think this squad has a bit more talent than is given credit for and could have accrued quite a few more points. 

And Pearson agrees with you, as do I. He stated quite explicitly yesterday that it is not a question of players’ abilities, but of the culture of the club, both on and off the pitch, which is also what many of us are arguing - and have been doing so for years.

It is an incredibly difficult task to change the ingrained culture of any organisation. Ask those at the top of the Metropolitan Police. Only a strong personality like Pearson, who is not afraid to speak truth to power, has any chance of turning it around.

As for the strategy the club is supposed to be founded on, there have been plenty of sound principles that it would be hard to disagree with. It’s the implementation that has been woeful. The explanation for that is to be found in the Boardroom, as again, many OTIB members have pointed out over and over.

In another thread yesterday, someone said (quite rightly and for the umpteenth time) “the problem lies at the very top”, and I responded by pointing out the blindingly obvious - that this is a much more profoundly difficult problem to fix than a need for change in the manager’s office or the dressing room. It would require that those at the very top recognise that the problem is at the very top. With apologies for repeating myself, it’s about as likely as Putin resigning because he massively miscalculated over Ukraine.

Don’t hold your breath.

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

15 minutes ago, CliftonCliff said:

And Pearson agrees with you, as do I. He stated quite explicitly yesterday that it is not a question of players’ abilities, but of the culture of the club, both on and off the pitch, which is also what many of us are arguing - and have been doing so for years.

It is an incredibly difficult task to change the ingrained culture of any organisation. Ask those at the top of the Metropolitan Police. Only a strong personality like Pearson, who is not afraid to speak truth to power, has any chance of turning it around.

As for the strategy the club is supposed to be founded on, there have been plenty of sound principles that it would be hard to disagree with. It’s the implementation that has been woeful. The explanation for that is to be found in the Boardroom, as again, many OTIB members have pointed out over and over.

In another thread yesterday, someone said (quite rightly and for the umpteenth time) “the problem lies at the very top”, and I responded by pointing out the blindingly obvious - that this is a much more profoundly difficult problem to fix than a need for change in the manager’s office or the dressing room. It would require that those at the very top recognise that the problem is at the very top. With apologies for repeating myself, it’s about as likely as Putin resigning because he massively miscalculated over Ukraine.

Don’t hold your breath.

But he’s not the head of the metropolitan police, which is a huge organisation, he’s the manager of a football club, and when it comes to events on the field, his job is to prepare and persuade 18 footballers to give 100%.  And patently that hasn’t been happening.  I’m sorry, but in any other walk of life, the manager would take responsibility for under-performance by their staff, but all Pearson does is blame his players and make strange comments about their ‘personality’.  I don’t buy that.  If he can’t get the players to do what he wants them to do then he has failed as a manager.

He’s had over a year now, and far from seeing any improvement, yesterday we witnessed an abject, humiliating performance against a ten-man bottom side.  And what does Pearson do?  Blames the players of course.  Has he ever taken any responsibility?  And don’t give me that stuff about football being worse under O’Driscoll and McInnes: this, for me, is the worst season I can remember - and I’ve been supporting City a long time, just a series of unrelentingly depressing matches.  No wonder people are not renewing season tickets.  This season has been close to torture at times.

I would have been very happy for Pearson to have been successful, but this is a results game and the one thing he has demonstrated is an inability to motivate his players to produce results.  I can see no reason to believe that next season will be any better if he stays.

Edited April 10, 2022 by The Dolman Pragmatist

[redapple]

I think club could do far worse than appoint DaveFevs as CEO,DOF or manager. That’s not sarcastic Dave. Your one of the few on here to consistently speak as an intelligent supporter, football enthusiast and human being with business and life sense. 

[nick jones of hereford]

Last season we were (most of us anyway) saying that if the season had lasted a few weeks longer we’d have been relegated. Most on this forum said success for this year would be avoiding relegation and blooding some of the youngsters - which is what has happened (with something to spare).

Pearson’s post match comments were wholly accurate, we don’t have the personalities to provide leadership on the pitch. 

commenting that maybe we wouldn’t spend in the summer was also accurate, a result of FFP rules might require us to sell to avoid a points penalty. A sale might enable Pearson to spend.

Whilst the debate is both healthy and interesting, I’d be very disappointed if Nigel Pearson left for whatever reason. He needs 2 to 3 years to turn the club around. My view is that he’s the ideal man for the job.

[robin for life]

If he walked he would get no payoff. I wonder if his constant digs at the team, players and how its run and the fact there is no money to spend, are him trying to push the Lansdowns buttons into sacking him. 

[ralphindevon]

28 minutes ago, redapple said:

I think club could do far worse than appoint DaveFevs as CEO,DOF or manager. That’s not sarcastic Dave. Your one of the few on here to consistently speak as an intelligent supporter, football enthusiast and human being with business and life sense. 

He’s got another 3 years on his OTIB contract so there’s no way they could afford him right now.

[italian dave]

10 hours ago, SydneyCity said:

With the Lansdown family in charge (and I am an overall supporter of what they’ve done), I can imagine a “this is a family club” mantra permeating through Bristol City - and the definition and application of this is “nice and friendly”.

In reality, the best, and most entertaining, families are defined by a collection of characters and personalities who may not always get on - they may even argue and fight non-stop - but ultimately would do anything for each other when push comes to shove.

You need Uncle Nige chucking truth bombs at the Christmas dinner table.

Point well made, and I especially like that last bit!

The worry I have is that NP can come across (and certainly did so yesterday) not as Uncle Nige, but as some kind of step-relative who’s come into the family very recently from outside, doesn’t fit in, constantly moans about everyone else and who no-one really likes. And some way removed from the close family who’d do anything etc. 

[CliftonCliff]

29 minutes ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

But he’s not the head of the metropolitan police, which is a huge organisation, he’s the manager of a football club, and when it comes to events on the field, his job is to prepare and persuade 18 footballers to give 100%.  And patently that hasn’t been happening.  I’m sorry, but in any other walk of life, the manager would take responsibility for under-performance by their staff, but all Pearson does is blame his players and make strange comments about their ‘personality’.  I don’t buy that.  If he can’t get the players to do what he wants them to do then he has failed as a manager.

He’s had over a year now, and far from seeing any improvement, yesterday we witnessed an abject, humiliating performance against a ten-man bottom side.  And what does Pearson do?  Blames the players of course.  Has he ever taken any responsibility?  And don’t give me that stuff about football being worse under O’Driscoll and McInnes: this, for me, is the worst season I can remember - and I’ve been supporting City a long time, just a series of unrelentingly depressing matches.  No wonder people are not renewing season tickets.  This season has been close to torture at times.

I would have been very happy for Pearson to have been successful, but this is a results game and the one thing he has demonstrated is an inability to motivate his players to produce results.  I can see no reason to believe that next season will be any better if he stays.

You’ve chosen to quote me,  but I don’t really know why, because we’re actually talking about different issues.

About Pearson himself, I neither strongly agree nor disagree. I, along with many others, am talking about organisational failings that were evident ten years before he was appointed and will likely still be evident in another ten years’ time, by which stage Pearson’s tenure might, for all we know, be a largely forgotten historical blip.

You can sack or appoint who you like: it won’t make a great deal of difference to the long-term trajectory of the club as a whole, unless there is meaningful change in the overall structure and ethos. It couldn’t be any more obvious.

[Kibs]

54 minutes ago, CliftonCliff said:

And Pearson agrees with you, as do I. He stated quite explicitly yesterday that it is not a question of players’ abilities, but of the culture of the club, both on and off the pitch, which is also what many of us are arguing - and have been doing so for years.

It is an incredibly difficult task to change the ingrained culture of any organisation. Ask those at the top of the Metropolitan Police. Only a strong personality like Pearson, who is not afraid to speak truth to power, has any chance of turning it around.

As for the strategy the club is supposed to be founded on, there have been plenty of sound principles that it would be hard to disagree with. It’s the implementation that has been woeful. The explanation for that is to be found in the Boardroom, as again, many OTIB members have pointed out over and over.

In another thread yesterday, someone said (quite rightly and for the umpteenth time) “the problem lies at the very top”, and I responded by pointing out the blindingly obvious - that this is a much more profoundly difficult problem to fix than a need for change in the manager’s office or the dressing room. It would require that those at the very top recognise that the problem is at the very top. With apologies for repeating myself, it’s about as likely as Putin resigning because he massively miscalculated over Ukraine.

Don’t hold your breath.

Agree with a lot of that - I just think that in-spite of it, he should be doing better on the pitch. I guess that’s where views differ. 
 

Yesterday, many of the players were either his players, or the players he trusts. 

[Davefevs]

46 minutes ago, redapple said:

I think club could do far worse than appoint DaveFevs as CEO,DOF or manager. That’s not sarcastic Dave. Your one of the few on here to consistently speak as an intelligent supporter, football enthusiast and human being with business and life sense. 

Thanks for the kind comments. But I’m just a football fan like many others on here. I like writing about football and debating football.

[The Swan and Cemetery]

10 hours ago, italian dave said:

I’d love to think you’re right, and maybe in three years time you’ll be proved right. The club is certainly a mess right now. But two questions for you - and these aren’t intended to argue against what you say, just genuinely interested.

Would you accept a relegation as part of those 3 years?

And, based on what we saw today, and have seen the last few weeks, can you see next season being anything other than a relegation season (assuming no points deductions for other clubs)? 

Personally not horrified by relegation if it really feels like a step back to take a step (ideally two!) forward. If nothing else, suspect a lot of us would say football was more enjoyable in 89/90 and 14/15 than most other seasons. But difficult to get confidence that it will be positive for the medium term. Instances like Sir Alex F (and Lord Alan Dicks) suggest sticking with someone can be hugely beneficial. But no way of assessing statistically what works, eg by now, would McInnes have us in the Champion’s League if we’d just stuck with him? Seems somewhat unlikely. 

However, I can see us staying up with some personnel tweaks, a decent pre season and youngsters/those with mainly lower division careers, having more experience at Championship level. I’m still in the NP stay camp (whilst that decision is binary, it doesn't mean a ‘happy-clapper’ binary view saying all NP does is perfect). Think he’s trying to make the cultural changes needed, whilst RG does the same operationally. Yes we’ve finished higher under different cultures, but often fading when it came to crunch time. That said, think good to get some different coaching support brought in, as not unreasonable to have expected a bit more progress on some of the consistent frustrations. 

 

[Bristol Oil Services]

 

3 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

Largish Nige needs to be given this next transfer window to try to form the team he wants. Realistically if we are still not showing signs of progress by Christmas then everyone needs to accept that a new man should be brought in.  

If we're accepting that by Christmas, we'll be L1 again by the Christmas after next