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How Should We Approach Next Season?


Port Said Red

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5 hours ago, Hxj said:

It has - but it has also produced some brilliant moments.

It also collapsed too many times in the last ten minutes.  

Bear in mind that I have been going to matches for almost 50 years, so I have seen some real 'god awful' football.

I’ve been going for the same period of time but this particular period of ‘god awful’ football has been going on for far far too long, when we dropped to the basement over a period of three years from the top flight it didn’t seem as bad as this as we were actually in absolute dire straits and just surviving as a football club was all that mattered, I certainly can’t recall a three year period like we’ve had to endure recently where the football has been so dull and underwhelming where every game is a ‘struggle’

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7 hours ago, Hxj said:

It has - but it has also produced some brilliant moments.

It also collapsed too many times in the last ten minutes.  

Bear in mind that I have been going to matches for almost 50 years, so I have seen some real 'god awful' football.

Just for the sake of clarity- please remind me of those "brilliant moments" this season of which you speak?

I suppose winning at home and avoiding the longest homeless win run in EFL history by one game was a relief and felt good whilst beating Cardiff was extremely satisfying but I'm stuck for any truly "brilliant" moments for several seasons.

 

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1 hour ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

Just for the sake of clarity- please remind me of those "brilliant moments" this season of which you speak?

I suppose winning at home and avoiding the longest homeless win run in EFL history by one game was a relief and felt good whilst beating Cardiff was extremely satisfying but I'm stuck for any truly "brilliant" moments for several seasons.

 

The Happy Clapper Sycophants do inhabit a strange world.

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17 hours ago, Port Said Red said:

Perhaps the most unusual season in European history will see the top divisions closing down for a long period for the World Cup.

In England the Premiership will close from the 11th November and restart on Boxing Day.

The Championship will also close on the 11th but restart on Dec 10th after the group games have finished, individual clubs will be able to postpone games though if they can show their squad is sufficiently weakened.

So as per the title, how would you approach the season? Regarding training will it be a normal pre season followed perhaps a mini pre season in December?

In games we could potentially play a heavy pressing game, knowing that we will have a mid season break for recovery and to go again in the "second half" of the season.

Ironically, it might be perfectly structured for LJ's "busy bees" team, but might also suit NP's hard working aggressive style.

The break is interesting. If you look to the same dates this season it would have actually only seen us 'skip' 4 games. It's a break, but it's not quite as drastic as it perhaps looks at first.*

So for me I'd probably not change much in terms of pre-season, and I'd definitely have 3 or 4 plans for that break, which one is implemented would depend on how we are looking after those first 18 or so games.

If we're going well then I'd expect to give the guys a few days holiday. Let them piss off to Dubai for a weekend and ease off a bit, then get them back in for a fortnight's solid training. The worse were doing the less holiday and the more training.

What will be interesting is whether we see any mid-season friendlies being scheduled. I could see us getting a match in, maybe a second "community" game v a local non-league side. Obviously that comes with injury risks, but it might be something to consider.

After the WC it'll be tough to go straight into the Christmas/New Year fixtures. Going from nothing to 5 or 6 games in 3 weeks could be very hard. We'll need to use the squad we'll in order to ease people back in. Then business as normal from mid January I expect.

*assuming that our opponents don't postpone an extra game at the end of it.

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13 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

The break is interesting. If you look to the same dates this season it would have actually only seen us 'skip' 4 games. It's a break, but it's not quite as drastic as it perhaps looks at first.*

So for me I'd probably not change much in terms of pre-season, and I'd definitely have 3 or 4 plans for that break, which one is implemented would depend on how we are looking after those first 18 or so games.

If we're going well then I'd expect to give the guys a few days holiday. Let them piss off to Dubai for a weekend and ease off a bit, then get them back in for a fortnight's solid training. The worse were doing the less holiday and the more training.

What will be interesting is whether we see any mid-season friendlies being scheduled. I could see us getting a match in, maybe a second "community" game v a local non-league side. Obviously that comes with injury risks, but it might be something to consider.

After the WC it'll be tough to go straight into the Christmas/New Year fixtures. Going from nothing to 5 or 6 games in 3 weeks could be very hard. We'll need to use the squad we'll in order to ease people back in. Then business as normal from mid January I expect.

*assuming that our opponents don't postpone an extra game at the end of it.

Seems a sensible approach, thank you. It will be interesting to see what the fitness guys think is the best way to approach it, I suppose a lot will depend on each player's requirements as usual.

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39 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

Seems a sensible approach, thank you. It will be interesting to see what the fitness guys think is the best way to approach it, I suppose a lot will depend on each player's requirements as usual.

I think the biggest shift will be in pre-season. We might see one fewer friendly game, perhaps some slightly lower intensity opening matches. I don't know. 

You're correct as well that within these broader ideas, each player will have some tailoring to their approach as well.

On the potential for extra postponements. Is that just at the EFL's discretion or have they published guidance on it. Is any Championship team seriously likely to have more than one or two players progress past the last-16?

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48 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

I think the biggest shift will be in pre-season. We might see one fewer friendly game, perhaps some slightly lower intensity opening matches. I don't know. 

You're correct as well that within these broader ideas, each player will have some tailoring to their approach as well.

On the potential for extra postponements. Is that just at the EFL's discretion or have they published guidance on it. Is any Championship team seriously likely to have more than one or two players progress past the last-16?

I suppose it depends on which teams progress (there are always surprises) and also which teams get relegated. I think the EFL will apply their normal rules on international call ups.

Edited by Port Said Red
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14 hours ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

Keep on 'blaming the mess LJ and Ashton left us in' even though Lee left 2 years and 3 seasons ago?

Alternatively, BCFC must ensure that any incomings are players who will be relevant to any new manager who replaces Nigel in the event that his record at this club continues.

Your niaive if you fell their influence is still not felt in the club. The LJ/ MA reign will be still felt until  the summer2023, when most of the dross they signed is out of contract and 2024 when the financial mess they created is no longer counted towards FFP.

 

Agree re signings though this needs to be a club policy to ensure this happens going forward. Thats why we need to appoint a DoF/ head of recruitment which ultimately is the boards/ SL’s decision 

16 hours ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

And Pearson can't work with no money???

His entire career proves otherwise - as he has repeatedly said whilst here. Presumably you've not been paying attention.

Never mind the fact that, with no money, he's developed untried players into assets worth circa 30-50 million quid this season - and at the same time kept us in the Championship! 

For your information, no City manager's ever achieved that before. 

But wait, there's more. How about putting a fit for purpose medical team in place? Or maybe you thought Andy Rolls was doing a great job anyway. 

And all the while talking to us like adults, giving it to us straight and, most importantly, with no personal agenda - just wanting what's best for our football club rather than for himself and his position.

Not good enough for you? Get a grip.

Yes, some of our football's been rubbish. But then, it was under other City managers too, at first. But, given time, they proved a great success - Alan Dicks for starters. So maybe give Pearson some time too, eh?

Maybe you're not familiar with the particulars of Alan Dicks' success. Maybe you're an impatient Generation Zer who wants everything now, now, now. Or maybe, you just love chattin shit. 

Because there's no lack of belief where it matters. But if there is where you're sat - after just 1 season of disappointment - I'd humbly suggest Bristol City isn't the club for you or any other snowflakes either. 

Times hard. The road will be bumpy. Buckle up.

agree completely with this except one point; I’ve noticed its a fair portion of our older fanbase who are being the impatient/ Nige out not just some of the younger fans. 
 

next season I am hoping for a midtable finish, see us improve both defensively and with our game management whilst trying to play some good attacking play which we have shown in glimpses this season

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This is just my opinion.

We need to try and let go of those players who aren't playing regularly, this is easy for someone like ODowda who is OOC and surely won't get a new deal, and the likes of Wells,Palmer and Moore who could be difficult to shift due to their high wages. With King, Cundy and Klose OOC I would like us to let these go with expcetion of Klose whose experience is vital. I would be tempted to see any of our high wage players including Kalas leave.

I would look at the lower leagues and free agents to try and add some pace to our side especially out wide. The likes of Mckirdy at Swindon etc, young hungry exciting but not high in fees or wages. I don't think Pearson should just go for older free agents as he did this season, I know they have been cheap but the likes of King and Simpson haven't worked.

I think we should consider selling Massengo due to his contract situation, ability to get a half decent fee and the fact he isn't a regular starter - and would be tempted to seel Semenyo if we could a high offer for him, Scott I would keep as his value over next season could easily double in my opinion.

In terms of signings we need in my view a RB, CB, CM, 2 wingers and a CF.....depending if we can move on the likes of Wells, Palmer and Kalas.

Either way I trust Pearson and Gould far more than Ashton and LJ and I'm pleased that the days of 15/20/25k per week signings are over, the likes of Luton etc have shown it just inside necessary.

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23 minutes ago, Tafkarmlf said:

I think if we can nail down the system that started to look good circa Preston rather than persist with Williams and James in midfield (who are anonymous) then that might work

Shame we've abandoned it when tried square pegs to round holes really. 

If we change management or coach, then gawd knows. 

Supplement maybe? I am told that Curtis is popular but overworked, since the other two left (Downing is considered a big miss by the players surprisingly). Alex Ball apparently doesn't have the gravitas needed for some of the more experienced pros.

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41 minutes ago, Gol said:

Your niaive if you fell their influence is still not felt in the club. The LJ/ MA reign will be still felt until  the summer2023, when most of the dross they signed is out of contract and 2024 when the financial mess they created is no longer counted towards FFP.

 

 

"You're naive if you feel..."

If you're going to respond to my post with a put down then may I suggest you actually do so with at least less than one spelling error and one grammatical  error  in your opening sentence otherwise it makes you look like an uneducated dullard.

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7 minutes ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

"You're naive if you feel..."

If you're going to respond to my post with a put down then may I suggest you actually do so with at least less than one spelling error and one grammatical  error  in your opening sentence otherwise it makes you look like an uneducated dullard.

Thank you for the correction. Yes I wouldn’t want to seem a dullard to someone correcting a typo and grammatical error on here, because their opinion was easily proven to be hopelessly wrong! 

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1 hour ago, Gol said:

Your niaive if you fell their influence is still not felt in the club. The LJ/ MA reign will be still felt until  the summer2023, when most of the dross they signed is out of contract and 2024 when the financial mess they created is no longer counted towards FFP.

 

 

So opinions:

Let's take a look at the "dross" (your words) in the first team signed by Lee Johnson :

Bentley

Weiman

Dasilva

Baker

Massengo

Scott

Pring

Palmer

ODowda

So which current first team players have a value which BCFC can reasonably expect to benefit from if sold ( all signed under LJ):-

Bentley

Massengo

Semenyo

Scott

Weiman

Dasilva

(Atkinson - NP signing)

Meanwhile Baker is very good on his day but always injured, Pring is ok, O'Dowda and Palmer quite poor for us .

NP has signed :

James

King

Simpson

Tanner

Atkinson 

of which Atkinson can genuinely be seen to have an increased value. 

Edited by Marina's Rolls Royce
dullard moment
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27 minutes ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

So opinions:

Let's take a look at the "dross" (your words) in the first team signed by Lee Johnson :

Bentley

Weiman

Dasilva

Baker

Massengo

Scott

Pring

Palmer

ODowda

So which current first players players have a value which BCFC can reasonably expect to benefit from if sold ( all signed under LJ):-

Bentley

Massengo

Semenyo

Scott

Weiman

Dasilva

(Atkinson - NP signing)

Meanwhile Baker is very good on his day but always injured, Pring is ok, O'Dowda and Palmer quite poor for us .

NP has signed :

James

King

Simpson

Tanner

Atkinson 

of which Atkinson can genuinely be seen to have an increased value. 

I didn’t say all their signings were poor. Out of the 50 + signings they made and over trebling of the wage bill I would expect some good signings!

 

 By Dross I meant O’Dowda Palmer, Wells, Moore,  Vyner (whose contract was extended under MA) who are taking up a large portion of our wage bill. 
 

Bentley has been a good shot stopper but lacks in other areas which is why Brentford sold him but has more than earned his fee/ wages.

Kalas has done ok for us but I don’t think he has justified the fee and wages paid. Dasilva I do not think has performed as consistently since his loan was made permanent.

 

Scott, Massengo, Semenyo and Pring have all improved immeasurably under Nige.
 

With regards to his signings  They have been a mixed bag. I have been pleased with Atkinson overall bar his slump midseason when he had his illness, James started well but since returning from injury has been poor. As he was 29 when we brought him in, I doubt he was brought in with a mind to sell for a profit.

 

I have liked the look of Tanner but I am concerned with the injuries (which tbf from the recruitment side, he never had prior to signing). Weimann is having his best season ever under Pearson and was a good resigning. Baker looked good prior to his concussions and I doubt we’d have the problems at the back, we have had he been fit.
 

Klose has been an decent short term signing. Its only king and Simpson which have been poor IMO and at least both were on 1 year deals on low wages unlike others from the MA/ LJ reign.5374321F-75C1-4C9D-A431-F5EE21D1D7DE.thumb.jpeg.f7c2ffb1be610248dc7aa12ca9e65903.jpeg

D44F21AF-B3EF-4438-94B2-0ADE65CD4804.jpeg

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3 hours ago, East Londoner said:

Would also be a good opportunity to go on tour to some warmer countries and play some games for team building etc like we saw in Gambia before the double winning season 

Pearson said last year that he prefers to go abroad for pre-season if possible, so this seems likely now that covid restrictions are being removed. 

PS. It was Botswana not Gambia. 

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For me it's all about the summer. If we are going to lose any/all of Scott, Semenyo and HNM, I hope it's done early in the close season so we aren't trying to shop from the dregs and end up paying over the odds in salary to get people in, not sure what influence we have over that however.

Aside from that, a strong pre-season without any long term injuries and I think we have a chance of not being in a relegation scrap.

 

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17 hours ago, Hxj said:

I'm strangely content about next season already.

GK: Bentley, O'Leary

CB: Atkinson, Klose, Cundy, Kalas, Vyner

WB: Dasilva, Pring, Tanner, Scott

MF: Williams, James, Massengo, Benarous

F: Martin, Wiemann, Semmenyo, Wells

Plus the other u23s not listed above.

May not set the world alight but if Pearson can get things moving should be interesting.

Baker will never play again - no manager would be stupid enough to let him get a third potentially life changing/fatal head injury.

That leaves nothing in terms of the bench. I think we’ll say permanent goodbyes to Baker, Vyner, Wells, Palmer, O’Dowda, Bakinson and King so there will be some funds gained there through sales/wages not being paid.

Scott needs to be used as a CM in one form or another. So a RB is an absolute necessity as well as the re-signings of Klose/Cundy.

On top of that we need to address the issue of width in the squad to give us another problem to cause opposition. 

I’d imagine another striker is also on the list.

With all that in mind you’d have to think one of Semenyo/Massengo/Scott will be sold. In an ideal world which ever one goes will also need replacing. I’d like to keep them all but if I had to pick I’d probably let HNM go circa 8-10million.

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2 hours ago, Gol said:

I didn’t say all their signings were poor. Out of the 50 + signings they made and over trebling of the wage bill I would expect some good signings!

 

 By Dross I meant O’Dowda Palmer, Wells, Moore,  Vyner (whose contract was extended under MA) who are taking up a large portion of our wage bill. 
 

Bentley has been a good shot stopper but lacks in other areas which is why Brentford sold him but has more than earned his fee/ wages.

Kalas has done ok for us but I don’t think he has justified the fee and wages paid. Dasilva I do not think has performed as consistently since his loan was made permanent.

 

Scott, Massengo, Semenyo and Pring have all improved immeasurably under Nige.
 

With regards to his signings  They have been a mixed bag. I have been pleased with Atkinson overall bar his slump midseason when he had his illness, James started well but since returning from injury has been poor. As he was 29 when we brought him in, I doubt he was brought in with a mind to sell for a profit.

 

I have liked the look of Tanner but I am concerned with the injuries (which tbf from the recruitment side, he never had prior to signing). Weimann is having his best season ever under Pearson and was a good resigning. Baker looked good prior to his concussions and I doubt we’d have the problems at the back, we have had he been fit.
 

Klose has been an decent short term signing. Its only king and Simpson which have been poor IMO and at least both were on 1 year deals on low wages unlike others from the MA/ LJ reign.5374321F-75C1-4C9D-A431-F5EE21D1D7DE.thumb.jpeg.f7c2ffb1be610248dc7aa12ca9e65903.jpeg

D44F21AF-B3EF-4438-94B2-0ADE65CD4804.jpeg

Also made £20 million(ish) profit on fees alone and several of those players are still at the club and have some value to sell - Kalas, Bentley, Weimann and HNM for example.

The reinvestment was the really poor bit.

Often misrepresented or omitted because it doesn't suit a certain narrative.

Always question a spreadsheet.

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2 hours ago, Gol said:

I didn’t say all their signings were poor. Out of the 50 + signings they made and over trebling of the wage bill I would expect some good signings!

 

 By Dross I meant O’Dowda Palmer, Wells, Moore,  Vyner (whose contract was extended under MA) who are taking up a large portion of our wage bill. 
 

 

 

Very good- just change the parameters to suit your crumbling position . You didn't mention spending so why introduce it unless you are backtracking?

Why introduce who has improved under NP- different subject  - you said dross and I stated the current first team players who were signed during LJ's management. Moore is on loan and is not "dross"  and Wells is certainly not dross although having been largely out of the team , it is now hard to say. I have no doubt there will be other clubs keen for his services albeit at a different price point as is now the case for most clubs.

Vyner was an academy player and at the time of being offered a new contract- it made total sense but no doubt he is a bad player in spite of NP as opposed to improving under him- narrative.

So , the bottom line is that your contention is that you think LJ signed "dross" and I have stated otherwise and highlighted that every player with any real value ( RA being a possible exception)  was signed on LJ's watch and if we raise any funds through sales- it's because LJ signed some cracking players- not dross.

 

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2 hours ago, Waconda said:

Also made £20 million(ish) profit on fees alone and several of those players are still at the club and have some value to sell - Kalas, Bentley, Weimann and HNM for example.

The reinvestment was the really poor bit.

Often misrepresented or omitted because it doesn't suit a certain narrative.

Always question a spreadsheet.

I’ll stick to our published accounts thanks transfer profit means little if we are not going to reinvest it wisely.

I agree the reinvestment was poor that was my original point about MAs/ LJ’s legacy is that we have an unbalanced squad with little/ no funds to change the squad easily. 

I have already gone over the players you mentioned. The latter 2s value has been increased thanks to Nige’s management this season.

 

2 hours ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

Very good- just change the parameters to suit your crumbling position . You didn't mention spending so why introduce it unless you are backtracking?

Why introduce who has improved under NP- different subject  - you said dross and I stated the current first team players who were signed during LJ's management. Moore is on loan and is not "dross"  and Wells is certainly not dross although having been largely out of the team , it is now hard to say. I have no doubt there will be other clubs keen for his services albeit at a different price point as is now the case for most clubs.

Vyner was an academy player and at the time of being offered a new contract- it made total sense but no doubt he is a bad player in spite of NP as opposed to improving under him- narrative.

So , the bottom line is that your contention is that you think LJ signed "dross" and I have stated otherwise and highlighted that every player with any real value ( RA being a possible exception)  was signed on LJ's watch and if we raise any funds through sales- it's because LJ signed some cracking players- not dross.

 

?? actually in my original point I mentioned FFP, which includes what we have spent! So no I have not changed parameters nor am I backtracking. If you want to look at the players I labeled has dross lets do it.

Lets look up the definition of dross first shall we? https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/dross


I have said LJ/ MA signed some good players, they also signed some dross. I have named the dross from my perspective that are still in the squad None of these players I mentioned have repaid their fees to Bristol Cityin terms of performance (quality) on the pitch or will make us any money upon disposal (value) therefore in terms of their quality or value to Bristol City can be considered dross. I would love that to change but unfortunately cannot see it happening.
 

Has Wells (who has had a very good career elsewhere) been worth the reported £4 million we paid for him? I don’t think so. will we recoup the money we spent on him? Highly doubtful.

With the exception of the odd game have Vyner or Moore looked like solid championship quality defenders? I’d say no. Will we make any money when both leave? I’d be pleasantly surprised. Will we recoup our fee on Moore? Again highly doubtful.

Have Palmer or O’Dowda, shown any consistent quality for us at this level? I’d say no. Will we get anything near the combined 5 mil we paid for them? No 

When they all leave, I will wish  them well in there future careers, careers which have stalled at city leaving them surplus to requirements, thus the dross of the squad.

I brought up players who quite frankly were average during the LJ/ MA and have improved under Nige. The facts speak for themselves. It is not a separate discussion as without This season under Nige they would not be valued as they currently are, or even if they would be considered good signings or not!

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4 minutes ago, Gol said:

I’ll stick to our published accounts thanks transfer profit means little if we are not going to reinvest it wisely.

I agree the reinvestment was poor that was my original point about MAs/ LJ’s legacy is that we have an unbalanced squad with little/ no funds to change the squad easily. 

I have already gone over the players you mentioned. The latter 2s value has been increased thanks to Nige’s management this season.

 

?? actually in my original point I mentioned FFP, which includes what we have spent! So no I have not changed parameters nor am I backtracking. If you want to look at the players I labeled has dross lets do it.

Lets look up the definition of dross first shall we? https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/dross


I have said LJ/ MA signed some good players, they also signed some dross. I have named the dross from my perspective that are still in the squad None of these players I mentioned have repaid their fees to Bristol Cityin terms of performance (quality) on the pitch or will make us any money upon disposal (value) therefore in terms of their quality or value to Bristol City can be considered dross. I would love that to change but unfortunately cannot see it happening.
 

Has Wells (who has had a very good career elsewhere) been worth the reported £4 million we paid for him? I don’t think so. will we recoup the money we spent on him? Highly doubtful.

With the exception of the odd game have Vyner or Moore looked like solid championship quality defenders? I’d say no. Will we make any money when both leave? I’d be pleasantly surprised. Will we recoup our fee on Moore? Again highly doubtful.

Have Palmer or O’Dowda, shown any consistent quality for us at this level? I’d say no. Will we get anything near the combined 5 mil we paid for them? No 

When they all leave, I will wish  them well in there future careers, careers which have stalled at city leaving them surplus to requirements, thus the dross of the squad.

I brought up players who quite frankly were average during the LJ/ MA and have improved under Nige. The facts speak for themselves. It is not a separate discussion as without This season under Nige they would not be valued as they currently are, or even if they would be considered good signings or not!

transfer profit means little if we are not going to reinvest it wisely

Yep that's my point but get tired of the same old myth peddled on here by some that we lost money on transfers in that period just to suit a spreadsheet or two.

We made tens of millions in transfer profit and spent that money poorly on the whole.

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1 hour ago, billywedlock said:

LJ signed in the main rubbish. 4 players signed for close to 20 m , all on over 20k a week , and unsaleable, and 4 players who will never be Prem players  , 39m loss confirmed it . The reason the club is in the current mess is down LJ , Ashton and SL not having any coherent plan and deviating from the approach that got us in the Championship . LJ inherited a lot of very good players too and was able to sell at profit to fund the eventual minestrone of a squad we have today . But it is what you leave behind that marks the quality of your work , and that quite clearly was catastrophic . We really were far off a Prem dreaming set up , despite the bluster . 
 

I should add I hold to account for the financial debacle  the three of them , it is not only about LJ . But he left no trace of a footballing identity at the club , nothing . And after 5 years and millions spent , 60 plus players , well that is the true reflection of his ability ( inability ) . 
 

Now is not about blaming the past for current challenges but managing around the complex minefield . But there is a minefield and it has to be negotiated and understood until the mess is cleared up . 
 

All opinions of course 
 


 

 

Yep, it's all about opinions.

I just struggle with the one that is:

Lee Johnson= everything bad

Nigel Pearson= everything good

I like the one's in between where LJ did some good and NP has done some bad and vice versa.

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