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Does Nige want to play 4 at the back?


Harry

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4 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Think @billywedlockand @Dr Ballshave given you the pluses.

To add to that, he never really had any pace, so there’s not much to have lost (Ala Teddy Sheringham).

Downsides / Other Considerations: where would that leave Matty James?  I don’t think you could play both together.  I think both Williams and Massengo (if he stays) would benefit from him….always available, calm in possession, etc.  Was discussing with @Harryand @redcherryberryyesterday about back 4 and 4141 type stuff.  Pack would fit that nicely.  Perm any 4 in front of that.

I guess we will have to wait and see.  It’s a kind of “romantic” suggestion.

In an ideal world, we should be trying to identify the next Marlon Pack, but it’s not an easy position to pick out watching tv highlights, and trying a data based approach can lead you up blind alleys.  DM screens don’t tend to jump out at you unless you are watching specifically for that.

For info, I looked at the stats of quite a few (realistic Champ) players with the traits to be a good screen….I finally came up with Romal Palmer at Barnsley.  So I sat down and watched some video of him, but he doesn’t screen.  He just gets similar stats from a different role.  Therefore “eyes” so important.

I do fear our Recruitment team is too data led.  It is obvious in my eyes that you use data to compare players but not every aspect of the game can be drilled down to data and you need to use your footballing intellect when doing so.   It's not baseball or darts or cricket which are repetitive sports that lead themselves to data analysis.  Then you have to take into account the different styles of teams.  For example, a heavily possession based side will have CBs and CDMs with high pass accuracy as they look to build play, whereas a counter attacking side like us will have lower accuracy as we're looking to play early balls forward.  

FWIW, if Pack is willing to accept a lower wage, I'd sign him up.  31 with over 300 Championship appearances?   That shouldn't stop us trying to find the next Marlon Pack though..

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3 hours ago, The Bard said:

I do fear our Recruitment team is too data led.  It is obvious in my eyes that you use data to compare players but not every aspect of the game can be drilled down to data and you need to use your footballing intellect when doing so.   It's not baseball or darts or cricket which are repetitive sports that lead themselves to data analysis.  Then you have to take into account the different styles of teams.  For example, a heavily possession based side will have CBs and CDMs with high pass accuracy as they look to build play, whereas a counter attacking side like us will have lower accuracy as we're looking to play early balls forward.  

FWIW, if Pack is willing to accept a lower wage, I'd sign him up.  31 with over 300 Championship appearances?   That shouldn't stop us trying to find the next Marlon Pack though..

If you go back far enough, to when we were relegated in 2012/13, Pack was the young replacement for Skuse, once he had transferred to Ipswich. Both players were under appreciated by many on here because as noted by @Davefevsthe role that they played is not flashy but is essential to screen a back 4 plus bring the ball out from the back. And before Skuse, it was Cisse. You could argue that Matty James plays the same role now but if that is the case (and I don’t think it really is, which is why we currently need 3 central defenders) then he doesn’t do it as well as any of those above.

Over the years, our midfield has always been a problem, both in terms of shielding the defence and creating for the forwards. Our best run under LJ in 2017/18 came with our 4 central defender defence, plus Pack and Smith in central midfield, Brownhill on the right and Bryan on the left. That was solid, workmanlike and also some pace on the wings, and allowed Paterson and Reid the freedom to roam further forward. (Looking back, you also realise that when on form how top quality that 2017/18 team was and what a disaster that the post-Christmas slump was, especially as we then started selling off players to turn a profit on them.)

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Some of these might be sold or similar but...

Starting point.

                Bentley

 Tanner Kalas Atkinson DaSilva

   Massengo James Williams

                 Scott

       Weimann Semenyo

Might be one way to go. Out of position if Scott or Weimann pull right and Semenyo left that can perhaps help to guard against 2 v 1.

Kalas and Atkinson I believe are the pair best suited to the high line. Martin is of course an option but wouldn't play him every week, Williams well we know what he can do when fit- 3 genuine CMs would help to bring out their strengths and mask their weaknesses a little.

Sort of a fluidish 4-3-3/4-3-1-2.

Then there are debates to be had on Baker, Cundy, Klose, Pring and of course Martin. Wells too if he sticks around/is retained...subject to retention, contract renewal or general ability to play in a few of these examples.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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On 20/04/2022 at 09:29, Davefevs said:

DM screens don’t tend to jump out at you unless you are watching specifically for that.

I remember one of my all-time favourites - David Batty - was invisible most of the time. But I remember one game he had for Engerlund, away somewhere in Eastern Europe, and he literally intercepted and tackled everything - he was utterly outstanding.

Similarly, Owen Hargreaves for England back in the '06 WC finals was the only player to come away with his reputation enhanced. 

Personally, I think a good DMF is worth their weight in gold.

And as pace isn't that important, they can play quite late into their careers - see Pirlo as an example (not a true DMF, but you know what I mean).

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36 minutes ago, SecretSam said:

I remember one of my all-time favourites - David Batty - was invisible most of the time. But I remember one game he had for Engerlund, away somewhere in Eastern Europe, and he literally intercepted and tackled everything - he was utterly outstanding.

Similarly, Owen Hargreaves for England back in the '06 WC finals was the only player to come away with his reputation enhanced. 

Personally, I think a good DMF is worth their weight in gold.

And as pace isn't that important, they can play quite late into their careers - see Pirlo as an example (not a true DMF, but you know what I mean).

Funny you mention Hargreaves….he’s kinda who I want Massengo to evolve into.

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He was asked this Q in the pre-match press conference yesterday. Sensibly said that he’ll play whatever system suits the players at his disposal. And having a reliable defence is the first criteria for whether you can play a back 4; defensive midfielder is a secondary issue. 

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26 minutes ago, eardun said:

He was asked this Q in the pre-match press conference yesterday. Sensibly said that he’ll play whatever system suits the players at his disposal. And having a reliable defence is the first criteria for whether you can play a back 4; defensive midfielder is a secondary issue. 

Yes, and also said people assume he prefers a flat 4-3-3 but he likes to play 2 up front with 1 behind. Which is pretty obvious from watching us anyway.

Pretty much dismissed the importance of a defensive midfielder as you imply.

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1 hour ago, chinapig said:

Yes, and also said people assume he prefers a flat 4-3-3 but he likes to play 2 up front with 1 behind. Which is pretty obvious from watching us anyway.

Pretty much dismissed the importance of a defensive midfielder as you imply.

4-3-1-2 could incorporate both, with the right personnel.

Might a midfield 3 of Massengo-James-Williams be collectively secure enough?

Scott behind the strikers ie as the '1' with Weimann and Semenyo as a strike pair,

OUT of possession, it's the 4-3, but then Scott can build on his work at wingback to pull wider right and Semenyo wider left...Weimann pressing in the middle.

Weimann and Semenyo are strikers but not necessarily orthodox due to their versatility. Could play to our advantage.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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1 hour ago, chinapig said:

Yes, and also said people assume he prefers a flat 4-3-3 but he likes to play 2 up front with 1 behind. Which is pretty obvious from watching us anyway.

Pretty much dismissed the importance of a defensive midfielder as you imply.

Yeah, although he did mention it a few weeks ago….seems to be “I want power and pace” to sit alongside the right ability level, and then go from there.  Feels very much like we are heading 4312 / 5212 (3412).  If you put those two “systems” on a piece of paper you could argue that the “DM” in the 4312 and the “Central CB” in the 5212 are the differentiator.  I’m not saying it is anywhere near as simplistic as swapping one player for another, but might we be starting to understand the thinking behind those matches where Joe Williams played as a “front sweeper”, i.e. was it a back 4 or back 5, were the full-backs really wing-backs, etc?

I guess it boils down to not getting too fixated on formations and player positions, especially when we see lots of mixed opinions on playing Sam Bell at “right-back”.  We’ve seen the good footballers in our squad show their adaptability.  There was little (no?) moaning about Ayman Benarous coming on on Monday at LWB, whereas he’d been thrown under the bus when played there previously.  Just goes to show how a result influences people’s mindset!

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On 22/04/2022 at 11:41, Davefevs said:

Funny you mention Hargreaves….he’s kinda who I want Massengo to evolve into.

Without the dodgy knees, one assumes - Bayern rather than ManUre version

Still, he's got the weird hybrid accent sorted - French Bristolian!

Edited by SecretSam
Mumph
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