Jump to content
IGNORED

Get the defence sorted and we’re contenders?


bcfcredandwhite

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

@spudskithought you might like this.

6C0A89C9-7AAA-495E-8094-D97841D38BA9.jpeg.add3a1ee97ba42a27819b5a0a787331e.jpeg

44327239-18D8-45E4-A94F-4152D3992681.jpeg.9ce2fd837d76902e5195b81ed414f87e.jpeg

I agree that he has improved his finishing, but wonder whether some of it is shot selection too?  Those half a dozen shots from the right hand corner of the penalty are low percentage chances, a few more taken from outside the box in 19/20 (20/21 injury hit) versus this season (21 v11) make a big difference too.

Think it might’ve been after the Swansea game when he scored his 1v1, I looked at all of his chances, and he scored every 1v1.  That’s pretty epic.  Did you hear his BBCRB interview on Saturday evening.  Usual stuff from Hadwin about “did you have too much time”.  The reply was (paraphrased) “I had it under control, waiting to see whether the keeper was gonna come out and I might be able to go around him. But he stayed back so I planned to hit it past him with a bit of height”.  Shows a man confident and in control.

If Antoine could improve his shot selection further (I think he has a bit already), then he could be lethal.  His finish on Saturday was him not trying to hit it as hard as he could!!!

Is it also perhaps that being part of a front 3 where you're not the sole source of goals allows you to be more selective with your shots. Rather than feeling that desperation to shoot from anywhere, you can be patient.

Does Antoine need to learn this patience?

Those are interesting graphics. As a team we've favoured quality over quantity of shot for a while now. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Is it also perhaps that being part of a front 3 where you're not the sole source of goals allows you to be more selective with your shots. Rather than feeling that desperation to shoot from anywhere, you can be patient.

Does Antoine need to learn this patience?

Those are interesting graphics. As a team we've favoured quality over quantity of shot for a while now. 

Imho, I think he has already…but he can improve it more.  Some of that is positional, switching from wide forward to a more inside forward.

But I think you’re right in your first para, if you’re not sure where the next chance is coming from, you might take the wrong option out of desperation!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Imho, I think he has already…but he can improve it more.  Some of that is positional, switching from wide forward to a more inside forward.

But I think you’re right in your first para, if you’re not sure where the next chance is coming from, you might take the wrong option out of desperation!

Heard Ian Wright a while ago say that he always aimed for the keeper. Seemed a bit strange but when you think about it how many shots remain true and accurate, so most will naturally go either side.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

It's fine, given he's been part of a front 3 at times. Assists too, clever play bringing others in.

Certainly is.

But shifting the goal posts from “the number that I think he’s scored” to “the number he has actually scored still isn’t enough”, is fairly standard on here.

Martin is about a lot more than simply goals, look at his career, the level he’s consistently played at & who for.

As has been debated a fair bit recently some are just looking for a reason to moan, but he’s been excellent this season.

Edited by GrahamC
  • Like 7
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Sir Geoff said:

Heard Ian Wright a while ago say that he always aimed for the keeper. Seemed a bit strange but when you think about it how many shots remain true and accurate, so most will naturally go either side.

Was always taught to aim for keepers ankles for tight, close range first time shots. Amazing how many times it either goes through the legs, in off or rebounds back into the 6yd box for a tap in. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Davefevs said:

@spudskithought you might like this.

6C0A89C9-7AAA-495E-8094-D97841D38BA9.jpeg.add3a1ee97ba42a27819b5a0a787331e.jpeg

44327239-18D8-45E4-A94F-4152D3992681.jpeg.9ce2fd837d76902e5195b81ed414f87e.jpeg

I agree that he has improved his finishing, but wonder whether some of it is shot selection too?  Those half a dozen shots from the right hand corner of the penalty are low percentage chances, a few more taken from outside the box in 19/20 (20/21 injury hit) versus this season (21 v11) make a big difference too.

Think it might’ve been after the Swansea game when he scored his 1v1, I looked at all of his chances, and he scored every 1v1.  That’s pretty epic.  Did you hear his BBCRB interview on Saturday evening.  Usual stuff from Hadwin about “did you have too much time”.  The reply was (paraphrased) “I had it under control, waiting to see whether the keeper was gonna come out and I might be able to go around him. But he stayed back so I planned to hit it past him with a bit of height”.  Shows a man confident and in control.

If Antoine could improve his shot selection further (I think he has a bit already), then he could be lethal.  His finish on Saturday was him not trying to hit it as hard as he could!!!

Very good always Dave. My worry is he will be sold 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Sir Geoff said:

Heard Ian Wright a while ago say that he always aimed for the keeper. Seemed a bit strange but when you think about it how many shots remain true and accurate, so most will naturally go either side.

Of course it depends how much time you have, but in frantic 'open play' I was always told not to waste precious milliseconds looking at the goal or the keeper. I was told 'you know where the goal is - it doesn't move - it's in the same place all game EVERY game- be aware of where it is in relation to your surroundings and shoot without looking. If the keeper makes a save then fair enough, that's what he's paid to do'. 

It seemed to work ok for me in the dizzy heights of the Wiltshire league Div 3 ?

 

 

Edited by bcfcredandwhite
change words
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

Is it also perhaps that being part of a front 3 where you're not the sole source of goals allows you to be more selective with your shots. Rather than feeling that desperation to shoot from anywhere, you can be patient.

Does Antoine need to learn this patience?

Those are interesting graphics. As a team we've favoured quality over quantity of shot for a while now. 

I think it's more that he could to be less precise with his finishing - to explain: I think he tries for the perfect finish most of the time. He has definitely improved, but he is always looking for the precise - right in the corner, right by the post finish. Last season when there were some doubts about him as a championship level forward it was because of lack of goals, but if you look at the games he played he was often missing by inches or hitting the woodwork. Even against Derby he had a chance where it was pulled back to him and he goes for the top corner with power. Sometimes he is in a good enough position where he just needs to strike the ball well and roughly to one side of the keeper and he'll score, those (for want of a better word) 'messier' finishes would actually benefit his game at times (IMO). 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, BCFC Richard said:

I think it's more that he could to be less precise with his finishing - to explain: I think he tries for the perfect finish most of the time. He has definitely improved, but he is always looking for the precise - right in the corner, right by the post finish. Last season when there were some doubts about him as a championship level forward it was because of lack of goals, but if you look at the games he played he was often missing by inches or hitting the woodwork. Even against Derby he had a chance where it was pulled back to him and he goes for the top corner with power. Sometimes he is in a good enough position where he just needs to strike the ball well and roughly to one side of the keeper and he'll score, those (for want of a better word) 'messier' finishes would actually benefit his game at times (IMO). 

Interesting theory. Perhaps something to it, although we see from Antoine's stats that this season he is both more accurate, and scoring more goals than last season. Although I guess you're suggesting that it is because he's not trying to be accurate that he is being more accurate. Kind of like when you ride a bike or ski - if you think too much about what you're doing you'll hesitate, wobble, and fall over. 21/22 and 20/21 are the only two seasons worth looking at in the below, as well as the 4 season average for us. That 4 season total is interesting as it suggests that Antoine's end-product this season - 7 goals from 22 shots on target - is sustainable. 

I love that he averages nearly 3 shots per game. That's a great figure. Real hunger, desire, tenacity coming through in that figure. Good for a striker, we need to nurture that. He's actually 8th in the league for number of shots per 90, and he's comfortably our most common shooter. Wells is the only other player who has taken more than 2 per 90 this season. 2.98 shots per 90, combined with 33% on target is a pretty solid set of numbers, and compares nicely to those strikers getting well into double figures. More, more, more please Antoine!

image.png.6b1e3f7bd2b67ad910b31e8afa33ae3b.png

Weimann is weird. Bar the actual 20 goals, his stats don't suggest a man who would score 20 goals. He's played nearly every minute of every game, but has actually only taken 78 shots, only 37 of which have been on target. A staggering 20 of those have gone in. It's clinical finishing on a whole other level. No other player who is taking that number of shots is getting near a 26% conversion rate, the closest are Piroe (98 shots) and Mitrovic (who has hit a frankly ludicrous 185 shots), both on 19% conversion.

Just to put a 26% shot/goal conversion rate into a bit more perspective - Salah is on 14%, Ronaldo is on 14%, Son Heung-Min is just shy of it on 24%, Jota on 19%. You get the point. It's an incredible figure.

Our forward line is really, really healthy right now. It's such a shame that the defence has been so poor in comparison, otherwise we really could have done something this season.

I guess ultimately that is OP's entire point isn't it.

Edited by ExiledAjax
  • Like 2
  • Flames 1
  • Robin 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 hours ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

If Andi stays fit and we keep on creating chances for him then why not?

If, like me, you think we'll almost certainly be a better team next season, he may well even have a significantly increased number of opportunities.

He's scored twice as many league goals this season as he ever has before.

He probably didn't believe himself capable of scoring 20 at Championship level, and now he knows he is his self belief in front of goal will be sky high.

Agree about a getting in a quicker, younger version of Martin, but I'd still expect CM to start the majority of games and he won't let us down.

If he has a full season I can see Semenyo doubling this season's total next year, at least, 15+ for Antoine.

 

 

I wasn't claiming that we would regress on the attacking front, just that we possibly could. Our two older strikers will be another year older, which inevitably brings a slowing down in pace, this is likely to affect Weimann more so than Martin, as it's one of his major assets. Along with that, being recognised as a dangerous striker, no doubt he'll receive a little more attention, which has probably already happened. Given the extra attention and the slight effects of the ageing process, I think it's fair to say he won't get any better than this season. So, as two of our strikers will possibly be less effective, however slightly, it remains for Semenyo to up his game a bit to take over the mantle. I have great faith that he will improve still more but, will it be with us, I certainly hope so, as he's one of the most exciting players I've seen in years. Add in another big, fast, strong striker to replace the disappointing Wells and we'll have a really good strike force.

I suppose a lot of this is about the entertainment and excitement of seeing a good effective strike force. Martin is Mr reliable but, doesn't get me out of my seat in expectation. I'd like to be able to experience that a bit more than recent seasons.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, SBB said:

Was always taught to aim for keepers ankles for tight, close range first time shots. Amazing how many times it either goes through the legs, in off or rebounds back into the 6yd box for a tap in. 

Correct, two little pins stuck to the floor are harder to move in reaction to a shot.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, Rich said:

Correct, two little pins stuck to the floor are harder to move in reaction to a shot.

Conversely, it looks brilliant when a keeper manages to drop from standing and get a hand to parry off their ankles. Great reaction times. Underappreciated save. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Davefevs said:

@spudskithought you might like this.

6C0A89C9-7AAA-495E-8094-D97841D38BA9.jpeg.add3a1ee97ba42a27819b5a0a787331e.jpeg

44327239-18D8-45E4-A94F-4152D3992681.jpeg.9ce2fd837d76902e5195b81ed414f87e.jpeg

I agree that he has improved his finishing, but wonder whether some of it is shot selection too?  Those half a dozen shots from the right hand corner of the penalty are low percentage chances, a few more taken from outside the box in 19/20 (20/21 injury hit) versus this season (21 v11) make a big difference too.

Think it might’ve been after the Swansea game when he scored his 1v1, I looked at all of his chances, and he scored every 1v1.  That’s pretty epic.  Did you hear his BBCRB interview on Saturday evening.  Usual stuff from Hadwin about “did you have too much time”.  The reply was (paraphrased) “I had it under control, waiting to see whether the keeper was gonna come out and I might be able to go around him. But he stayed back so I planned to hit it past him with a bit of height”.  Shows a man confident and in control.

If Antoine could improve his shot selection further (I think he has a bit already), then he could be lethal.  His finish on Saturday was him not trying to hit it as hard as he could!!!

Much appreciated Dave. ??

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, SBB said:

Conversely, it looks brilliant when a keeper manages to drop from standing and get a hand to parry off their ankles. Great reaction times. Underappreciated save. 

Knees bent and on your toes helps to do that. You are also in the position to spring either way.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 25/04/2022 at 10:01, Red-Robbo said:

I agree with those that say the midfield is the real issue. 

We have some very talented players there, but no one who really breaks up opposition play. James and Williams, whose role that should really be, have been disappointing in that sense. 

I was thinking about how Gary Johnson took a fairly ordinary team of players to the play-off final in 2008 and the thing I remember in that season and others around it was how important Marvin Elliott was at occupying that space right in the middle of the park and preventing opponents running in on the defence from distance. Bradley Orr's defensive work from distance was great too, but it was Marv more often than not who could cut down opponents' options, slow down their attacks or totally neutralise them. 

No one would say Marv was the most "cultured" footballer out there and going forward, he was decent but not outstanding.

However it was hard to just run past him, and that's what we need.

We need a Marv. 

Good post, and what a Elliott was in his first season. Arguably the best £100k we’ve ever spent. 

I’d add that the class of 07/08 was physically (LJ aside) a big side too, with the likes of Basso, McCombe, Carey, Vasko, Orr, Skuse, Elliott, Betsy, Adebola and Showumni all over 6ft.

The game’s changed a lot since those days, but we don’t have the same physicality week in week out as we had back then. We’re quite a small side in that regard IMO. When Klose, Cundy and Atkinson play, that element improves a lot, though. 

We need more balance across the squad IMO. Full backs, wingers and a Marv. Even then I doubt we’ll be contenders, but it should improve. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, tin said:

Good post, and what a Elliott was in his first season. Arguably the best £100k we’ve ever spent. 

I’d add that the class of 07/08 was physically (LJ aside) a big side too, with the likes of Basso, McCombe, Carey, Vasko, Orr, Skuse, Elliott, Betsy, Adebola and Showumni all over 6ft.

The game’s changed a lot since those days, but we don’t have the same physicality week in week out as we had back then. We’re quite a small side in that regard IMO. When Klose, Cundy and Atkinson play, that element improves a lot, though. 

We need more balance across the squad IMO. Full backs, wingers and a Marv. Even then I doubt we’ll be contenders, but it should improve. 

I haven't checked to verify, but I seem to remember Basso being one of the smallest GKs in the league at that time - it was one of his very few weaknesses (and one he could do absolutely nothing about of course)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, bcfcredandwhite said:

I haven't checked to verify, but I seem to remember Basso being one of the smallest GKs in the league at that time - it was one of his very few weaknesses (and one he could do absolutely nothing about of course)

Basso looked smaller than he actually was because he usually wore an oversized shirt! I interviewed him once and was surprised to see he was around 6”1 or 6”2 at a guess. I’m 5”11 and he was bigger than me! 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 25/04/2022 at 14:08, Mr Popodopolous said:

Scott as a freeish '1' in a 4-3-1-2, then out of possession him or Weimann pull wide right, Semenyo wide left might be one way to go, although Martin has done quite well this season so it's a dilemma.

Martin has done well for a not so good side. I know there is no money as we speak but I just don’t see us pushing mid table with Martin playing as many minutes as he did this season. So as much as it seems harsh, I don’t see Martin playing well as a dilemma.
 

Hopefully Semenyo stays and can be fit for most the season. I feel more hopeful with a front 2 of Weimann and Semenyo. Hopefully a bit more of Conway too. I’d see it more as Martin behind Semenyo and Conway behind Weimann. Scott as the freeish 1 I am all for. His flair, creativity, passing and shooting with both feet will benefit us greatly imo. Also helps not getting 10m quoted as a future fee for him. 

On 25/04/2022 at 15:16, Davefevs said:

Seems to be from last week’s interview he sees the front three as as a 2+1 (behind) rather than 3 strung across the line….which although being a bit “football manager” is my preference.

I can see the 43 bit of the 433 being one athletic DM and two CMs which you can mix and match.

Ah I missed that. Think makes recruiting easier as we have a few players that can play across that front 3. Semenyo, Martin, Weimann, Conway, Scott and Benarous is not a bad 6 to give minutes to. Shedding Wells and Palmer(not as much) should give the younger players confidence to play their game without having to beat out seasoned pros. 
 

Midfield is tricky. The DM is important as think most would agree. Maybe need 2 but perhaps Williams can cover that. Want to see Williams in the CM conversation though. Don’t think he is a goal threat necessarily but think he has an array of passes and some good vision which would be beneficial. Matty James I just can’t take to. Not sure if his game is what I don’t like or the lack of mobility. Now I think he has looked a bit fresher lately in terms of mobility but still think he may need to be protected at times in his 30s. Maybe find a workhorse and rotate him and Williams. Is there anyone in the u23s that can get some minutes? I thought Kadji was a cm but not sure. 
 

To the topic, not even sure the defence is that bad. My opinion is we didn’t help our defence from the front near enough. Our midfield often was athletic enough to be narrow and close down those wide areas. Believe that dropping Martin could help us defend from front which brings ball retention questions(can semenyo take that on full time?). Getting that athletic DM is vital. As well as finding someone like Massengo(going surely) but maybe a bit more saavy in the english game. When I look at Tanner, Klose, Atkinson and Pring, I think that can be good. Cundy isn’t a bad rotation piece. Kalas and Dasilva as well good options but ones I’d try to move because of wages. If not though, on paper and individually not bad. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, JoeAman08 said:

Ah I missed that. Think makes recruiting easier as we have a few players that can play across that front 3. Semenyo, Martin, Weimann, Conway, Scott and Benarous is not a bad 6 to give minutes to. Shedding Wells and Palmer(not as much) should give the younger players confidence to play their game without having to beat out seasoned pros.

agree
 

Midfield is tricky. The DM is important as think most would agree. Maybe need 2 but perhaps Williams can cover that. Want to see Williams in the CM conversation though. Don’t think he is a goal threat necessarily but think he has an array of passes and some good vision which would be beneficial. Matty James I just can’t take to. Not sure if his game is what I don’t like or the lack of mobility. Now I think he has looked a bit fresher lately in terms of mobility but still think he may need to be protected at times in his 30s. Maybe find a workhorse and rotate him and Williams. Is there anyone in the u23s that can get some minutes? I thought Kadji was a cm but not sure.

think that whatever we go with, we have to consider “rotation / rest / form”.  Although Williams isn’t a “screen” per se, he can be a player that gets in the ball and starts attacks, might also help in managing his hamstring.  Although I do like the way he gets into his opponent by pressing aggressively.  James is a funny one, I wonder whether I’ve missed some of what he’s doing, but I’d say last couple he’s looked much more the like the one from the opening 8-10 games.

Kadji is a CM.  Highly thought of, but I think he’s got a bit more development to do first.  Having said that, I thought Benarous did too, but training within the first team group can speed up development.  I actually think Benarous has looked better in the first team than the u23s where he tends to be more “showy”.  Owers is the other CM.  Needs to improve his first touch imho, the ball too often in the edge of his control.  But I like how he gets into his opponent, doesn’t given them much time.  Left footed too, so could give nice balance.  Would imagine he’d be ahead of Kadji, but they play midfield differently to each other.
 

To the topic, not even sure the defence is that bad. My opinion is we didn’t help our defence from the front near enough. Our midfield often was athletic enough to be narrow and close down those wide areas. Believe that dropping Martin could help us defend from front which brings ball retention questions(can semenyo take that on full time?). Getting that athletic DM is vital. As well as finding someone like Massengo(going surely) but maybe a bit more saavy in the english game. When I look at Tanner, Klose, Atkinson and Pring, I think that can be good. Cundy isn’t a bad rotation piece. Kalas and Dasilva as well good options but ones I’d try to move because of wages. If not though, on paper and individually not bad.

good logic in that.

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...