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LJ to Hibs


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13 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

 I haven’t tried to degrade LJ’s cv - he has zero achievements on it - that’s all I said, and it’s pretty true ....

Winning a trophy at Wembley isn’t zero achievements is it? A trophy you seem to want to degrade despite going to see it 2 or 3 times by your own admission. Strange behaviour tbh

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6 minutes ago, TonyTonyTony said:

Winning a trophy at Wembley isn’t zero achievements is it? A trophy you seem to want to degrade despite going to see it 2 or 3 times by your own admission. Strange behaviour tbh

Lee Johnson has been a manager for 450 games at various clubs - he is not a ‘young upcoming gaffer’ as many try to portray him, and his one claim to fame is winning the tier three/tier four Football League Trophy for a club as massive as Sunderland - and that is it. Really not sure why you describe my questioning of this as ‘strange behaviour’ - he hasn’t really achieved anything ... it’s sad, but it’s true ...

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“It’s not about proving anyone wrong,” he said. “I understand it; I wasn’t a massive name in football as a player, they wouldn’t have gone to the depth of research in terms of what I have and haven’t done, and of course there were some big football names bandied about. But the due diligence that the club carried out makes me comfortable as well that it wasn’t just a quick, snap decision. That was important because the club was able to tell me my successes without me having to deliver that to them.”

From an interview in the Times.

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10 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Lee Johnson has been a manager for 450 games at various clubs - he is not a ‘young upcoming gaffer’ as many try to portray him, and his one claim to fame is winning the tier three/tier four Football League Trophy for a club as massive as Sunderland - and that is it. Really not sure why you describe my questioning of this as ‘strange behaviour’ - he hasn’t really achieved anything ... it’s sad, but it’s true ...

Anyway @TonyTonyTony - it’s getting late now, but just to say, I appreciate our online sparrings, it’s great that you constantly hold me to account for my views and I do the same back at you. It’s never personal for me, just good old fashioned debate, which is what a forum like this is all about - especially on a Friday night! Have a great weekend - cheers 👍

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8 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Lee Johnson has been a manager for 450 games at various clubs - he is not a ‘young upcoming gaffer’ as many try to portray him, and his one claim to fame is winning the tier three/tier four Football League Trophy for a club as massive as Sunderland - and that is it. Really not sure why you describe my questioning of this as ‘strange behaviour’ - he hasn’t really achieved anything ... it’s sad, but it’s true ...

You clearly have an agenda here. I note you now acknowledge his “one claim to fame” when previously suggesting he had done nothing. That’s at least more honest than you were previously when you dismissed the EFL trophy as counting for nothing. Despite following your own team to finals several times.

As i said : weird as ****

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Just now, TonyTonyTony said:

You clearly have an agenda here. I note you now acknowledge his “one claim to fame” when previously suggesting he had done nothing. That’s at least more honest than you were previously when you dismissed the EFL trophy as counting for nothing. Despite following your own team to finals several times.

As i said : weird as **

I’ve never had an agenda with regards to football - an agenda was what we used to have in pathetic meetings back in my previous corporate life - and the last item on the agenda was always ‘AOB’ - which was when the real debate started! And that annoyed the majority of the meeting attendees who were just waiting for the buffet to arrive! I’ve never disliked LJ or had ‘an agenda’ against him, never ever ...

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Just now, BS4 on Tour... said:

I’ve never disliked LJ or had ‘an agenda’ against him, never ever ...

So why so dismissive of the EFL trophy he won? It’s black (red) and white. He won it for sunderland - nothing else to say.

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18 minutes ago, Harry said:

LJ’s CV. 

6) Sunderland - when dismissed had produced the highest win percentage of any Sunderland manger in nearly 100 years. 

That’s not true, Billy Elliott returned a 53.8% win percentage before departing as Sunderland manager in 1979 - LJ’s win percentage with the Black Cats was 51.3% ... 

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23 minutes ago, Harry said:

LJ’s CV. 
 

1) Oldham. First season. In relegation zone when he took charge. 10 games, 15 points. Survival. Points per game ratio would have seen them 8th in the league across the season. 
2) Oldham. First full season. Took them to their best league finish in years. 
3) Oldham. 3rd season. Had them into the top 10 before being hunted by Barnsley. Oldham would win only 3 of their remaining 15 without him. 
During that 2 years he also took a previously struggling Oldham to a semi and a quarter in the JPT. 
4) Barnsley. Took them on at 16th and again managed a 1.5 ppg ratio to guide them to 11th. Then guided them to the final of the JPT before being hunted by City. 
5) Bristol City. Took over a relegation threatened team which had won 3 games in 17, and guided them to 8 wins in 17 to safety. Proceeded to present 3 playoff challenging seasons for a club that had challenged the 2nd level playoffs only once in the previous 40+ years. Add in a quite remarkable league cup run. 
6) Sunderland. Took an underperforming team to the playoffs and to a JPT victory. Season 2, had the team in the playoffs and  when dismissed had produced the highest win percentage of any Sunderland manger in nearly 100 years. 
 

So, with 2 unfashionable clubs (for their level) he achieved a quarter, a semi, a final in the JPT, then with another unfashionable club (for the level) managed a league cup semi and 3 seasons of playoff contention, then led a sleeping giant to a JPT win, the playoffs and a best win percentage in 100 years. 
 

Ok, no promotions to his name. But it’s stretching it to say he has nothing on his CV. Success is all relative to the club. I’d say he’s improved every club he’s been at so far. 

Really good post. Ultimately LJ’s record so far is a consistently solid record of getting clubs to perform to their expected level or slightly above it, albeit with some dips in form a long the way. He is not an outstanding manager and I think his main obstacle to another job in the Championship is that - based on form to date - there is always likely be a more impressive name on the shortlist but he certainly isn’t a poor manager either.

One presumes at Hibs the expectation is to get the team meeting their potential in the table with no serious expectation they will regularly compete for trophies. I think he’s probably a very decent appointment in that regard.

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12 hours ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

I’ve never said or held the view that anyone who supported LJ is a snowflake ... strange assertion that ... 

Your twisting what I’m saying here - your words:

“when I recently suggested on here that LJ had ‘zero achievements on his cv’ I was leapt upon by the cancel culture/snowflake brigade because apparently he won the Leasing.com/Papa Johns Trophy”

You said the people who disagreed with you were the cancel culture/snowflake brigade. I was just asking how you made that conclusion. 

Edited by Alessandro
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54 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

Your twisting what I’m saying here - your words:

“when I recently suggested on here that LJ had ‘zero achievements on his cv’ I was leapt upon by the cancel culture/snowflake brigade because apparently he won the Leasing.com/Papa Johns Trophy”

You said the people who disagreed with you were the cancel culture/snowflake brigade. I was just asking how you made that conclusion. 

He just finds it very difficult to take the L. Especially when it concerns detail.

You’d think one would be able to hold their hands up and say ‘Oh yes, apologies, forgot the JPT’ (their personal views on the prestige of the trophy neither here not there) but seemingly not. 

Edited by Phileas Fogg
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5 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

He just finds it very difficult to take the L. Especially when it concerns detail.

You’d think one would be able to hold their hands up and say ‘Oh yes, apologies, forgot the JPT’ (their personal views on the prestige of the trophy neither here not there) but seemingly not. 

Another point is the idea that getting a trophy or promotion is the only way to judge his performance is ridiculous. As @Harryhas shown, the only one of the teams he has Managed that would reasonably "expect" promotion is Sunderland, and it could be argued he was well on the way to achieving it when they hit the panic button.

There are something like 600 Managers registered with the LMA, many of whom would be considered for jobs despite the majority probably never having "won" anything.

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10 hours ago, Harry said:

LJ’s CV. 

6) Sunderland. Took an underperforming team to the playoffs and to a JPT victory. Season 2, had the team in the playoffs and  when dismissed had produced the highest win percentage of any Sunderland manger in nearly 100 years. 
 

 

10 hours ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

That’s not true, Billy Elliott returned a 53.8% win percentage before departing as Sunderland manager in 1979 - LJ’s win percentage with the Black Cats was 51.3% ... 

:facepalm:

................and the previous 5 points of Harry's post???????

Your reply to those seems to have disappeared!

:dunno:

 

Edited by Redtucks
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11 hours ago, Harry said:

LJ’s CV. 
 

1) Oldham. First season. In relegation zone when he took charge. 10 games, 15 points. Survival. Points per game ratio would have seen them 8th in the league across the season. 
2) Oldham. First full season. Took them to their best league finish in years. 
3) Oldham. 3rd season. Had them into the top 10 before being hunted by Barnsley. Oldham would win only 3 of their remaining 15 without him. 
During that 2 years he also took a previously struggling Oldham to a semi and a quarter in the JPT. 
4) Barnsley. Took them on at 16th and again managed a 1.5 ppg ratio to guide them to 11th. Then guided them to the final of the JPT before being hunted by City. 
5) Bristol City. Took over a relegation threatened team which had won 3 games in 17, and guided them to 8 wins in 17 to safety. Proceeded to present 3 playoff challenging seasons for a club that had challenged the 2nd level playoffs only once in the previous 40+ years. Add in a quite remarkable league cup run. 
6) Sunderland. Took an underperforming team to the playoffs and to a JPT victory. Season 2, had the team in the playoffs and  when dismissed had produced the highest win percentage of any Sunderland manger in nearly 100 years. 
 

So, with 2 unfashionable clubs (for their level) he achieved a quarter, a semi, a final in the JPT, then with another unfashionable club (for the level) managed a league cup semi and 3 seasons of playoff contention, then led a sleeping giant to a JPT win, the playoffs and a best win percentage in 100 years. 
 

Ok, no promotions to his name. But it’s stretching it to say he has nothing on his CV. Success is all relative to the club. I’d say he’s improved every club he’s been at so far. 

Lots of good achievements in LJ’s managerial career.  Achievements aren’t always measured in trophies are they?

He did some crap stuff too, but just like evaluating any player / manager, there’s more to it that just trophies and win percentages, context is everything (to me).

I really think this is a great job for him (and likewise for Hibs).

I watched both his appointments interview with the CEO and his own interview and I think I heard a bit more humility in his words, that he’s probably learned from the past.  That’s a good sign.

He’s gonna be responsible for recruitment - so we can see how that pans out (from afar), and see whether he can do well in that aspect without Ashton.  I didn’t really look at it that closely during his time at Sunderland, but Ross Stewart (Ross County) for £300k looks a snip…and evidence he will look for the non-obvious types of signings.

Good luck to him…Scottish football is on the up, both domestically and at international level.  They are taking advantage of different work permit rules to our own FA and they can attract players we can’t, especially u23s that are OOC, because they aren’t financially constrained by the Tribunal System, just EPPP development costs which are much lower (Google Joe Ariba).

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Bonus pedantry:

Billy Elliott:

Record whilst caretaker (1972/73 FA cup winning season before Bob Stokoe arrived) - winning percentage: 0% (0/4)
Record record whilst permanent (1978/79): 53.8% (14/26)
Overall record: 46.0% (14/30)

League record: 48.1% (13/27)
 

Lee Johnson:
Overall: 51.3% (40/78)

League: 49.2% (30/61)

 

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39 minutes ago, elhombrecito said:

Good luck to him, hope he does well. Don't really get the re-writing of history where he was awful for us.

No need to rewrite history- he wasn’t awful but  just not what we needed and failed in the stated mission to get us in the play-offs. Good luck to him. He will have different objectives at Hibs. 

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45 minutes ago, elhombrecito said:

Good luck to him, hope he does well. Don't really get the re-writing of history where he was awful for us.

He wasn’t though was he?

(Blige - I’m standing up for LJ!)

Edited by Davefevs
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I have BBC scotland on in the background, and a lot of the chatter of the guys on this particular show are quite glowing of LJ's ingress at Hearts, noting that he wants to be involved in as much of the day-to-day running and meeting as many of the staff as possible.

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12 hours ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

That’s not true, Billy Elliott returned a 53.8% win percentage before departing as Sunderland manager in 1979 - LJ’s win percentage with the Black Cats was 51.3% ... 

Good dancer too…

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36 minutes ago, sephjnr said:

I have BBC scotland on in the background, and a lot of the chatter of the guys on this particular show are quite glowing of LJ's ingress at Hearts, noting that he wants to be involved in as much of the day-to-day running and meeting as many of the staff as possible.

What would be seen as success for Hibs? I’d imagine coming 3rd (whilst pushing the Old Firm clubs) and a domestic trophy final would be seen as good going.

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37 minutes ago, sephjnr said:

I have BBC scotland on in the background, and a lot of the chatter of the guys on this particular show are quite glowing of LJ's ingress at Hearts, noting that he wants to be involved in as much of the day-to-day running and meeting as many of the staff as possible.

Hasn't he gone to Hibs?

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45 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

What would be seen as success for Hibs? I’d imagine coming 3rd (whilst pushing the Old Firm clubs) and a domestic trophy final would be seen as good going.

Not for some. Would still be people saying ‘he still hasn’t won anything!’

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