LJ to Hibs

[Harry]

7 hours ago, billywedlock said:

 

He has achieved nothing and left our club in financial turmoil with a poorly balanced squad , overpaid average players and no discernible playing style . Dishing up the most boring football seen in decades  despite a spending spree on wages and transfer fees never seen in our history. Some legacy that.

Thankfully Sunderland got rid , so they could get promoted . He was on another losing streak , as they had seen the previous season . Could not risk it again , and were justified by being unbeaten since Feb , with a win percentage better than Billy BS . ( his record did not last long ) and promotion. 

Biggest blagger ever. 

 

 

Everything that is said about the recruitment policy, overpaid players, huge debts etc, is all down to Ashton. LJ had zero say in the finances of any deals and also had minimal say in who was actually coming in. I know this, from the horses mouth. 
Looking at his recruitment at Sunderland, (where he did have much more control), we can see that yesterdays playoff winning team consisted of 9 players of the 14 used which Lee brought in himself ;

Baath, Cirkin, Evans, Roberts, Pritchard, Stewart, Clarke, Doyle & Broadhead, as well as Patterson & Embleton who had not been used by the previous manager. 
Only Gooch, O’Nien and Bailey Wright weren’t brought into that squad by LJ. 
Add in Matete and Winchester who’ve played important roles through the season too. 
 

I think his Sunderland recruitment gives you a much better idea of who was in charge of things whilst he was at AG. 
Also look at his recruitment at Oldham & Barnsley. The outlier is Bristol City. And there’s a specific reason why. 
 

I’ve said before and I’ll continue to say it, LJ was not responsible for recruitment here, Ashton is at fault for our current plight. But anyway, that’s been done to death on here. 

Edited May 22, 2022 by Harry

[mossey]

15 hours ago, Sweeneys Penalties said:

Lee Johnson: Sunderland fan's view on what Hibs can expect of 'streaky' new boss | Edinburgh News (scotsman.com)

Sums him up perfectly , it’s his comments and Johnson speak that got to me in the end, could no longer listen to his comments after a game.

Edited May 22, 2022 by mossey
Added to comment

[bpexile]

On 21/05/2022 at 07:43, Malago said:

They wouldn’t have gone to the depth of research in terms of what I have and haven’t done, That was important because the club was able to tell me my successes without me having to deliver that to them.”

From an interview in the Times

That wouldn't have taken long !!

[bpexile]

49 minutes ago, Harry said:

Everything that is said about the recruitment policy, overpaid players, huge debts etc, is all down to Ashton. LJ had zero say in the finances of any deals and also had minimal say in who was actually coming in. I know this, from the horses mouth. 
Looking at his recruitment at Sunderland, (where he did have much more control), we can see that yesterdays playoff winning team consisted of 9 players of the 14 used which Lee brought in himself ;

Baath, Cirkin, Evans, Roberts, Pritchard, Stewart, Clarke, Doyle & Broadhead, as well as Patterson & Embleton who had not been used by the previous manager. 
Only Gooch, O’Nien and Bailey Wright weren’t brought into that squad by LJ. 
Add in Matete and Winchester who’ve played important roles through the season too. 
 

I think his Sunderland recruitment gives you a much better idea of who was in charge of things whilst he was at AG. 
Also look at his recruitment at Oldham & Barnsley. The outlier is Bristol City. And there’s a specific reason why. 
 

I’ve said before and I’ll continue to say it, LJ was not responsible for recruitment here, Ashton is at fault for our current plight. But anyway, that’s been done to death on here. 

I'm not doubting you for one minute Harry but why on earth do you think LJ didn't draw it to the notice of SL & son. He was/is afterall a family friend that should have made it clear what was going on, or did he & it was ignored?.

I always thought we were perhaps one club too soon for LJ to shine.

 

Edited May 22, 2022 by bpexile
Just read your LJ's CV post & it is quite impressive, it's something that I wasn't fully aware of ?

[Glen hump]

51 minutes ago, Harry said:

Everything that is said about the recruitment policy, overpaid players, huge debts etc, is all down to Ashton. LJ had zero say in the finances of any deals and also had minimal say in who was actually coming in. I know this, from the horses mouth. 
Looking at his recruitment at Sunderland, (where he did have much more control), we can see that yesterdays playoff winning team consisted of 9 players of the 14 used which Lee brought in himself ;

Baath, Cirkin, Evans, Roberts, Pritchard, Stewart, Clarke, Doyle & Broadhead, as well as Patterson & Embleton who had not been used by the previous manager. 
Only Gooch, O’Nien and Bailey Wright weren’t brought into that squad by LJ. 
Add in Matete and Winchester who’ve played important roles through the season too. 
 

I think his Sunderland recruitment gives you a much better idea of who was in charge of things whilst he was at AG. 
Also look at his recruitment at Oldham & Barnsley. The outlier is Bristol City. And there’s a specific reason why. 
 

I’ve said before and I’ll continue to say it, LJ was not responsible for recruitment here, Ashton is at fault for our current plight. But anyway, that’s been done to death on here. 

I’m pretty sure LJ said on multiple occasions he had the final say on all signings, or was he bullshiting?

[Sheltons Army]

8 hours ago, billywedlock said:

 

He has achieved nothing and left our club in financial turmoil with a poorly balanced squad , overpaid average players and no discernible playing style . Dishing up the most boring football seen in decades  despite a spending spree on wages and transfer fees never seen in our history. Some legacy that.

Thankfully Sunderland got rid , so they could get promoted . He was on another losing streak , as they had seen the previous season . Could not risk it again , and were justified by being unbeaten since Feb , with a win percentage better than Billy BS . ( his record did not last long ) and promotion. 

Biggest blagger ever. 

 

 

Or put another way

He blew the best opportunity we had , for decades 

[Davefevs]

3 hours ago, bpexile said:

I'm not doubting you for one minute Harry but why on earth do you think LJ didn't draw it to the notice of SL & son. He was/is afterall a family friend that should have made it clear what was going on, or did he & it was ignored?.

I always thought we were perhaps one club too soon for LJ to shine.

 

On the recruitment aspect, couldn’t agree more, and something he should’ve called out.  He didn’t.  Especially when he brought McAllister into the first team coaching set up to give him more time to concentrate on recruitment.  If that was because he was worried about Ashton, then he had a long time to sort that out.

Away from recruitment it appears:

• he is a good coach
• But lacks man-management skills

I thought he struggled to read a game in match (during the 90) at times, I saw opposition managers made tweaks and LJ not react.

Overall, he did okay.

 

[Harry]

8 hours ago, bpexile said:

I'm not doubting you for one minute Harry but why on earth do you think LJ didn't draw it to the notice of SL & son. He was/is afterall a family friend that should have made it clear what was going on, or did he & it was ignored?.

I always thought we were perhaps one club too soon for LJ to shine.

 

It was the model that he was working under. No point complaining if you’ve agreed to work under that model. He was essentially a Head Coach with Ashton acting as a Director of Wankery (sorry Football). Happens at lots of clubs where the head coach doesn’t have control over recruitment. LJ did mention a few times that he thought certain things needed to be ‘tweeked’ in the model, certainly where he referenced random overseas signings that he didn’t really need or want. 
 

For what it’s worth, I actually agree with your final sentence. I always had a feeling he’d end up managing us, but I do think it came too early in his career. 

8 hours ago, Glen hump said:

I’m pretty sure LJ said on multiple occasions he had the final say on all signings, or was he bullshiting?

Not bullshit, but also not the truth. Much more nuanced. 
 

There’s a big difference between the following 2 scenarios:

1)
MA - Lee, who would you like us to sign?  
LJ - I’m interested in Alex and Bob. Would prefer Alex, but if not Bob would be good. 
MA - I’ve arranged a fee for Bob. Are you happy with that. 
LJ - Yes. 
 

2)
MA - Lee, I’ve got Colin, Dave & Eddie on my shortlist. Who do you fancy? 
LJ - Can’t we get Alex or Bob? 
MA - No. Just Colin, Dave or Eddie. 
LJ - Ok, well I suppose Colin from that list please. 
MA - Great. I’ve arranged a fee for Colin. Shall we go ahead?  
LJ - Ok yes. 
 

Edit. Note also that none of that ‘sign off’ would have any input from LJ in terms of the price and the wage. That’s all on Ashton. 

Edited May 22, 2022 by Harry

[Sheltons Army]

17 minutes ago, Harry said:

It was the model that he was working under. No point complaining if you’ve agreed to work under that model. He was essentially a Head Coach with Ashton acting as a Director of Wankery (sorry Football). Happens at lots of clubs where the head coach doesn’t have control over recruitment. LJ did mention a few times that he thought certain things needed to be ‘tweeked’ in the model, certainly where he referenced random overseas signings that he didn’t really need or want. 
 

For what it’s worth, I actually agree with your final sentence. I always had a feeling he’d end up managing us, but I do think it came too early in his career. 

Not bullshit, but also not the truth. Much more nuanced. 
 

There’s a big difference between the following 2 scenarios:

1)
MA - Lee, who would you like us to sign?  
LJ - I’m interested in Alex and Bob. Would prefer Alex, but if not Bob would be good. 
MA - I’ve arranged a fee for Bob. Are you happy with that. 
LJ - Yes. 
 

2)
MA - Lee, I’ve got Colin, Dave & Eddie on my shortlist. Who do you fancy? 
LJ - Can’t we get Alex or Bob? 
MA - No. Just Colin, Dave or Eddie. 
LJ - Ok, well I suppose Colin from that list please. 
MA - Great. I’ve arranged a fee for Colin. Shall we go ahead?  
LJ - Ok yes. 
 

Edit. Note also that none of that ‘sign off’ would have any input from LJ in terms of the price and the wage. That’s all on Ashton. 

Sorry Harry

But quite simply , if either of those scenarios were routine ,then quite simply he shouldn’t have been in post anyway.

Are you seriously suggesting that he agreed to sign players he didn’t want or rated ? or that during his time here this was never conveyed to the Lansdowns , even when his back was against the wall , or on his exit conversations , so much so that he took the blame and the sack whilst the Lansdowns continued happily employing , and praising Ashton ?

As I said if there is truth in what you say , (and having heard Johnson speak , at length regarding recruitment , off camera , I think you are at the very least exaggerating any situation)  , and Johnson ‘ meekly soldiered on ‘ , without a word , he didn’t deserve the job , or to keep it.

And as for the ‘Harry Redknapp shoulder slide’ re finances , I also think that’s poor - A professional manager / head coach has to have some idea of finances and the picture , in rough at least , and some sort of recruitment plan which includes the finance

Others primary responsibility , but to a far lesser degree his too 

Edited May 22, 2022 by Sheltons Army

[Davefevs]

10 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

A professional manager / head coach has to have some idea of finances and the picture , in rough at least , and some sort of recruitment plan which includes the finance

Yep, totally.  In our case, it’s why he / MA had to sell players, because he / MA spent too much on players that didn’t deliver.  The ones that did were great (Brownhill, Webster, 1 or 2 others), but far too many just clogged up the squad.

I get that football is cut throat and not being in a job is a bad position to be in.  But surely LJ backed himself?  SL’s surrogate son, he should’ve played on that.  Or was there a deep down insecurity about his position?

 

[Northern Red]

First signing in, David Marshall on a 2 year deal. LJ says he tried to sign him at Sunderland.

[Sheltons Army]

29 minutes ago, billywedlock said:

Then why did he say he approved every signing . If he was lying then he is far too weak . He had the ear of the owner more than any manager during Lansdown’s ownership . If he was pretending to go along with situations he disagreed with then he is even worse than I thought . Weak and without gumption . Hardly the characteristics of a top coach . So he was a puppet then ? 

Ashton was awful . But LJ was an integral part of that process and equally as culpable . Giving him a get out for Ashton is quite frankly  laughable and either discredits LJ further or is an attempt to deflect his incredible deficiencies away from the real issue . He is just not very good , has achieved nothing , despite have time and money at City , and one of the most notable wage bills at Sunderland .

He made it up as he went along , had no clear plans or strategy . Left out club in disarray and on a financial precipice . That after all those years it was impossible to discern what our playing style was , apart from being death defying boring , then that is down to him .

He was given the golden ticket and delivered nothing but a financial black hole . 
 

He might make a good academy manager under a coach who knows what they are doing .    
 

 

 

If the scenario was as Harry claims 

I would have less respect for him than I would for any failings in recruitment , coaching , management , selection and tactics , or anything else 

If in anyway true he’s weak , dishonest and completely misled the supporters , and as I said in my earlier post , if so he never deserved the role or to keep it.

My personal belief is he was totally complicit in creating an expensive , disjointed , bloated , demotivated and unbalanced squad .

* Actually He would be complicit if Harry’s claim is true , I actually think he’s far more responsible than ‘complicit’

Edited May 23, 2022 by Sheltons Army

[Harry]

On the contrary. It’s called professionalism. 
A manager who publically calls out his owner, chairman or CEO won’t be in a job for very long. 
That same behaviour isn’t good for your long term career prospects either as you’ll be perceived as ‘difficult to work with’. 
Any public communication from the manager will always toe the party line. All parties at a football club need to be publically seen to be in agreement else the fans will revolt. 
Far from it being a weak minded trait, it’s a polite and clever one to ensure you stay onside with the hierarchy. 
Trust me, behind closed doors, disagreements were had. But publically a strong front would always have to be displayed. 

[Harry]

4 hours ago, Northern Red said:

First signing in, David Marshall on a 2 year deal. LJ says he tried to sign him at Sunderland.

And another. 
Nohan Kenneh from Leeds. 
LJ getting his business done straight away! 

[DaveF]

1 hour ago, Harry said:

And another. 
Nohan Kenneh from Leeds. 
LJ getting his business done straight away! 

Seems like a pretty impressive signing for Hibs that one!

[BS4 on Tour...]

On 21/05/2022 at 08:48, Phileas Fogg said:

He just finds it very difficult to take the L. Especially when it concerns detail.

You’d think one would be able to hold their hands up and say ‘Oh yes, apologies, forgot the JPT’ (their personal views on the prestige of the trophy neither here not there) but seemingly not. 

Too much hassle to type ‘loss’ rather than ‘the L’ ?! And with the space it’s actually more characters than ‘loss’ - by trying to appear to be ‘street’ you actually had to put in more effort!

[BS4 on Tour...]

On 21/05/2022 at 10:05, Redtucks said:

 

................and the previous 5 points of Harry's post???????

Your reply to those seems to have disappeared!

 

I was simply replying to Harry saying LJ was the most successful Sunderland manager in the last 100 years in terms of win percentage - that was incorrect - didn’t realise you wanted me to critique all his points?! Life’s too short ...

[BS4 on Tour...]

On 21/05/2022 at 05:33, TedsHeadIs Red said:

Superb pedantry 

Why is stating facts dismissed as pedantry by yourself? It’s a fact that LJ does not have the best win percentage of any Sunderland manager over the last 100 years. I merely pointed that out and proved it - and you say ‘superb pedantry’ - I totally accept that I’m quite rightly seen as being a bit pedantic on here - but most of the time that is levelled at me when I just state facts - yes, facts - so how was my correcting the guy who said that LJ is the most successful Sunderland manager over the last 100 years, ‘superb pedantry’ - when I was just correct ...

[View from the Dolman]

21 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Too much hassle to type ‘loss’ rather than ‘the L’ ?! And with the space it’s actually more characters than ‘loss’ - by trying to appear to be ‘street’ you actually had to put in more effort!

Would anyone say "take loss" rather than "take the loss"? So I'd say "take the L" is actually more efficient and it looks like you've wasted more effort than @Phileas Fogg. 

[Stortz]

21 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Too much hassle to type ‘loss’ rather than ‘the L’ ?! And with the space it’s actually more characters than ‘loss’ - by trying to appear to be ‘street’ you actually had to put in more effort!

Oh dear oh dear.

He'd have had to type the 'the' in either scenario wouldn't he, so there's an additional 'L' for your collection!

[BS4 on Tour...]

1 minute ago, View from the Dolman said:

Would anyone say "take loss" rather than "take the loss"? So I'd say "take the L" is actually more efficient and it looks like you've wasted more effort than @Phileas Fogg. 

Someone more pedantic than me! Brill! Cheers ...

[BS4 on Tour...]

1 minute ago, Stortz said:

Oh dear oh dear.

He'd have had to type the 'the' in either scenario wouldn't he, so there's an additional 'L' for your collection!

That sounds just like a post I’d have written - it’s great that all my fellow pedants, who’ve obviously been hiding away, are rushing out from undercover now! Cheers all ...

[View from the Dolman]

3 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Someone more pedantic than me! Brill! Cheers ...

Why is using language correctly dismissed as pedantry by yourself? Blah blah. 

[Stortz]

9 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

That sounds just like a post I’d have written - it’s great that all my fellow pedants, who’ve obviously been hiding away, are rushing out from undercover now! Cheers all ...

 

18 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Why is stating facts dismissed as pedantry by yourself? It’s a fact that LJ does not have the best win percentage of any Sunderland manager over the last 100 years. I merely pointed that out and proved it - and you say ‘superb pedantry’ - I totally accept that I’m quite rightly seen as being a bit pedantic on here - but most of the time that is levelled at me when I just state facts - yes, facts - so how was my correcting the guy who said that LJ is the most successful Sunderland manager over the last 100 years, ‘superb pedantry’ - when I was just correct ...

 

[And Its Smith]

If I was offered a great job and there was a proviso that I towed the company line on something then I would do it. It’s as simple as that.  Ashton made the signings.  LJ’s signings at Sunderland show that he knows a player when he sees one. We know that Webster was his man and the same with Brownhill.  I appreciate it’s hard for some to give LJ any credit at all but as Harry says, he does deserve some. 

[Kid in the Riot]

17 hours ago, Sheltons Army said:

If the scenario was as Harry claims 

I would have less respect for him than I would for any failings in recruitment , coaching , management , selection and tactics , or anything else 

If in anyway true he’s weak , dishonest and completely misled the supporters , and as I said in my earlier post , if so he never deserved the role or to keep it.

My personal belief is he was totally complicit in creating an expensive , disjointed , bloated , demotivated and unbalanced squad .

* Actually He would be complicit if Harry’s claim is true , I actually think he’s far more responsible than ‘complicit’

Do you have the same opinion of Klopp, Mourinho, successive Man U and Chelsea managers, all of whom kowtow to a transfer "committee" that decide which players are brought in? Of course the manager/head coach is consulted on which players are being scouted and who prospective signings are, however the modern model does not give the manager the overall and ultimate responsibility of signing who they want to. It has been like this at the top clubs for quite a few years, so it's surprising some fans are still confused about how things work. When Mark Ashton rocked up at Ipswich, are you expecting us to believe that Paul Cook had a list of 23 players that he wanted to sign, and that Ashton purely did the administrative work behind the deals? 

8 hours ago, billywedlock said:

Well how about calling them out privately. He did not. He was supporting the Ashton nonsense. Ask the owner. Sorry you have been sold a seriously warped story and are far off the mark. And we know who fed you this nonsense. He was as complicit in the disaster as Ashton and to suggest otherwise is disingenuous and false. 

With respect, you couldn't possibly know that. I don't either btw, however I'd put to you that it is very unlikely that in 4 years LJ did not privately express concerns regards Ashton. Very unlikely. 

[Redtucks]

11 hours ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

I was simply replying to Harry saying LJ was the most successful Sunderland manager in the last 100 years in terms of win percentage - that was incorrect - didn’t realise you wanted me to critique all his points?! Life’s too short ...

Life is not too short for you to reply to all the points you disagree with though.

I suggest that you didn't reply to the previous 5 points because you couldn't disagree with them!

 

 

Edited May 24, 2022 by Redtucks

[Harry]

12 hours ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

I was simply replying to Harry saying LJ was the most successful Sunderland manager in the last 100 years in terms of win percentage - that was incorrect - didn’t realise you wanted me to critique all his points?! Life’s too short ...

Hopefully we can put a stop to the silliness of this particular conversation that seems to have irked a few. 
 

No probs BS4 on Tour. I’ll take that challenge re Billy Elliott’s stint. 
I’d previously mentioned the win rate a few months ago and I’d forgotten that I’d meant to caveat it with ‘permanent managers that have had at minimum a full season’

In fairness, Alex Neill to date has had a higher %, but not yet managed a full season. 
End of the day, the decision to replace LJ with Neil has been a success, so we can’t question that the decision was wrong. I guess all we can suppose is whether LJ would have also achieved promotion. Neil has been commended for shoring up the defence. It could easily be argued that LJ signing Ba’ath late in January was the critical element of ensuring that happened. Together with the signing of Roberts, which allowed a more dynamic attacking option, with a player who was capable of carrying the ball forward and advancing the team 50 yards up the pitch whenever on the ball. 
Those 2 signings late in Jan were crucial to shoring up the defence. LJ was never given the opportunity to play those players whom he’d just signed in order to make the effective change required. 
All supposition though. So hey ho. 

[Bristol Oil Services]

Leaving aside what we think of him, what does Professional Football think about Lee and his "level" as a Head Coach? Looks like Football thinks he is L1/Scotland but not Old Firm.

One Championship position secured and worked at by Lee thus far, and there was a degree of "who you know" (as much as "what you've done") in that appointment I think we can agree it is fair to say. And at any other Championship club, I believe it is also fair to speculate, Lee would not have survived the season he served up in 2016/17. The season where he set a new club record for consecutive league defeats (and was rewarded with a contract extension).

Unless Lee is turning down Championship clubs every month and we're not aware of it? Were Posh interested? Does that count?

 

[TonyTonyTony]

1 minute ago, Bristol Oil Services said:

Were Posh interested? Does that count?

Pretty sure LJ/JM turned them down. Being a championship club at the time, it does count.

Re: Sunderland. Anyone watching them this second half of the season will surely have noticed how instrumental Alex Pritchard was for them. He has said himself he credits that to Johnson. No doubt some of you will disregard that as well