The Palmer problem

[chinapig]

1 hour ago, BTRFTG said:

Yep, plenty of them down the years and it's getting worse.

Many kids retained by Premier clubs until they're 23 have enough money never to have to play again when released and that's why they pack it in.

It's real problem for football development here taking hundreds of EFL standard players out of the game before they ever have a chance to show what they might have achieved.

As Gary Johnson said, some of them like being footballers but don't like playing football.

[Sir Geoff]

1 hour ago, Mad Cyril said:

Do you really believe any footballer is happy wasting a chunk of their short career not playing the game?

Even Bale would rather be playing, albeit at a team where he is appreciated.

Sometimes a big fat contract can actually be a curse not a gift.

The best outcome in any such situation for every party is to find a way the player can get back in the team and have an impact.

Didn't seem like it last year at Spurs imo.

[1960maaan]

2 hours ago, Marcus Aurelius said:

On most browsers, normally to the right of the URL bar, you have the option to remove all visual content & only read the article, the button is usually a piece of paper with straight lines across indicating text only.

It's happened all of a sudden without me touching anything. 

I'll have a look though , cheers.

[Rocking Red Cyril]

20 hours ago, spudski said:

He is playing regular football...everyday in training. 

Gets to train, play, learn (coached), eat healthily, keep fit, whilst being paid said over a £Million for the next year. 

Gets a load of time off to spend with young family in a lovely City. 

He's made for life.

At his age he will know his limits. He will know he isn't Prem quality and can go through the motions at a lower wage with another team at this level or below. He'll still get a team after this final year, all be it on a lower, but still decent wage.

Why want to play match day and be under pressure and judged weekly?

He's living the dream. Millionaire, playing football every day with no pressure. If your main drive in life is your young family, it's a no brainer.

This is why people are still fixated with Ashton...this situation is his doing.

 

Surely his main drive should be to be playing first team football 

[NcnsBcfc]

Can't help feeling that maybe the relationship between Palmer and the club has broken down now, to the extent that he may well just see out his contract.

He was always going to be the most difficult to shift from our long list of players we want to move on. A combination of lack of playing time, high wages; and "injuries".

Either way, that's QPR, Birmingham; and Cardiff that have all looked as to whether a deal can be done. If KP was interested for footballing reasons he would have gone out on loan/perm long ago. It is now a question of who backs down first, the club or KP over taking a hit.

His current stance just reminds me of Bogarde at Chelsea all those years ago.

Either way the Palmer deal must go down as potentially the worst deal in my time watching city ,(since 1977).

[GrahamC]

@NcnsBcfc Think Engvall & Styvar run him close, but agree.

[NcnsBcfc]

2 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

@NcnsBcfc Think Engvall & Styvar run him close, but agree.

@GrahamC good shout on both of those.

But the transfer fee, probably loan fee before that; and the subsequent wages pushes Palmer into a whole new level for me. 

[IdliketoRogerMoore]

3 hours ago, Rocking Red Cyril said:

Surely his main drive should be to be playing first team football 

From whose point of view you’d be surprised at the amount of players who don’t like football don’t like playing it just happened to ggo’s enough to go pro and make money! For proof you have to look no further than 3rd choice goalkeepers in the prem, never likely to play but will get paid very handsomely to train fitness eat well and be finished work at like 12:30ish everyday!

[Superjack]

Said it at the start and I'll say it again. "Show Pony".

Could have understood why we signed him if we hadn't already seen him on loan.

Was delighted when we signed Kalas and Dasilva permanently. I said at the time, "We have got the two we needed". Then Ashton and Johnson couldn't help themselves.

It will sting, but I think we should just pay the ****er up and get shot.

[Dr Balls]

On 28/05/2022 at 12:51, IdliketoRogerMoore said:

From whose point of view you’d be surprised at the amount of players who don’t like football don’t like playing it just happened to ggo’s enough to go pro and make money! For proof you have to look no further than 3rd choice goalkeepers in the prem, never likely to play but will get paid very handsomely to train fitness eat well and be finished work at like 12:30ish everyday!

Yes but many 3rd choice goalkeepers are either youngsters coming through who may or may not get a loan or permanent deal elsewhere in due course or players coming to the end of their careers who are looking to make a bit of extra money and don’t mind not playing much. They may also do a bit of coaching on the side.

Palmer’s position is completely different. He is in his mid 20s. He could have another 10 years of a career where he might get paid another £5 million plus, with a bit of luck and some application on his part. Or he could sit out the next year and bank a million. The latter sounds initially attractive from an income perspective, but then what? Who will want a player who hasn’t made it at a number of Championship clubs? League 1 wages are a lot less so his only other options for anything similar to what he’s getting now are USA, Australia or China.

If I was his agent, I would be telling him that another year of not playing much at Championship level is not going to do him any favours in the long term. Get your deal paid up to terminate the contract, make up most of the difference with a signing on fee as a free agent and get another 3 year contract at Championship level even if it is on less wages than now. The problem is that in the short term that may not be the biggest earner for his agent who is the fourth person to add into this mix of player, club and potential new club.

[The Bard]

On 28/05/2022 at 09:20, NcnsBcfc said:

@GrahamC good shout on both of those.

But the transfer fee, probably loan fee before that; and the subsequent wages pushes Palmer into a whole new level for me. 

Absolutely.  

[robin for life]

33 minutes ago, Dr Balls said:

Yes but many 3rd choice goalkeepers are either youngsters coming through who may or may not get a loan or permanent deal elsewhere in due course or players coming to the end of their careers who are looking to make a bit of extra money and don’t mind not playing much. They may also do a bit of coaching on the side.

Palmer’s position is completely different. He is in his mid 20s. He could have another 10 years of a career where he might get paid another £5 million plus, with a bit of luck and some application on his part. Or he could sit out the next year and bank a million. The latter sounds initially attractive from an income perspective, but then what? Who will want a player who hasn’t made it at a number of Championship clubs? League 1 wages are a lot less so his only other options for anything similar to what he’s getting now are USA, Australia or China.

If I was his agent, I would be telling him that another year of not playing much at Championship level is not going to do him any favours in the long term. Get your deal paid up to terminate the contract, make up most of the difference with a signing on fee as a free agent and get another 3 year contract at Championship level even if it is on less wages than now. The problem is that in the short term that may not be the biggest earner for his agent who is the fourth person to add into this mix of player, club and potential new club.

Australia has strict rules now. 8 of a 20 man squad, have to be home grown, A Maximum wage of 15,000 AUD applies, except for a maximum of 2 Marquee players who can be paid a maximum of 1,500,000 AUD a season. This included bonuses and signing on fees, wages and everything. So effectively about 750,000 a season or 14,400 a week, but this includes everything and is a maximum of 2 players per team, the remainder can't be on anymore than 15,000 AUD a week, including all fees and bonuses. Therefore very few bigger names are ending up in Aus now, and a lot are moving from MLS, or J League or lesser leagues in Europe. Gone are the days of Premier League and Championship players galore ending up in AUS.

Many end up in China, and only when exhausted money out there, go to Aus. I know earlier in the year Aaron Mooy wanted to head back to Melbourne City, but they already had 2 marquee players so he wasn't a viable option.

Kasey Palmer would have to go down as a Marquee player to go out there, as he wont take less than 7.5K a week all in, I'm sure. Even if he went anywhere as a Marquee player (Of the 12 teams, 6 have already 2 Marquee players contracted for next season and 4 have 1, 2 have none) we would have to foot some of the wages.

If we terminate his contract with compensation, a move out there becomes somewhat possible, but it wouldn't be as lucrative as it was 5/6 years ago. 

As a club, we should be scouting the A League, as a lot of young players are getting a lot of game time and experience out there now. There's a lot of under 25s who would not cost the earth and given the max wage they would have been on is 7,500 a week, we would be an attractive proposition.

Lachlan Wales (Western United), Birkan Kirdar (Melbourne Victory), Daniel Walsh (Perth Glory), Tate Russell (Western Sydney) & George Blackwood (Adelaide United) are all very good promising players who have stood out this year and could easily play at Championship Level, and a few of these will end up Socceroo's before long. If we were to lose one of our midfielders or strikers in the summer, Lachlan Wales or George Blackwood could certainly come in and do a job.

I mentioned in the if Pearson got sacked who should be our next manager thread the other week, that we should look at John Aloisi as a potential manager. He has done wonders at Western United, and they have one of the smallest budgets being one of the newest sides and he got Brisbane very competitive until 2018 when he left them to join Western United when they joined the A League. This year, they have been outstanding with their quick, impressive passing football and Aloisi was a decent player in the 90s and even played for Portsmouth, and Coventry behind return to AUS. He got Roar who had been bottom 3 team for season's a top 4 team and semi finalists , before he resigned and had a break from management. Last year he then joined Western United and has taken them from being the 10th best team, to 3rd, having been up there for most of the season. He then has seen them go to the final of the grand series and win it. The way they played the first half yesterday against Melbourne City (sister club of Man City) showed Aloisi's tactical genius, and then they closed it out in the second half. This is Aloisi's first major honour as a manager, but at 46, his style of football has him tipped to be the next Socceroo boss. If we did part ways with Pearson at any time in the next 12 months, he is exactly the sort of manager who could get us to the premier league. He has worked on the 11th highest budget in the A League, and was unable to sign a single marquee players as the clubs finances couldn't afford it, yet he has led them to the series finals and won the series. A manager who has a team play attacking and impressive passing football and able to close games out, and run down the clock when winning and then show the heart to win when it matters, and on a shoe string budget. Regardless of what league you're in, these qualities show Aloisi as a potential top class manager and he is still young at 46, and has a good CV in the game as a player. He's a manager the fans would hate as many would have never heard of him, but he would be exactly the type of manager who would take us to the Premier League. 

[DOZZYBCFC]

On 27/05/2022 at 14:22, CodeRed said:

He lives in Swansea the last I heard !!!

So not lovely then 

He doesn’t live in Swansea, has a house in the same estate as Nahki.

[robin for life]

Just now, DOZZYBCFC said:

He doesn’t live in Swansea, has a house in the same estate as Nahki.

Development ...... Footballers don't live in estates  

[DOZZYBCFC]

5 minutes ago, robin for life said:

Development ...... Footballers don't live in estates  

Lol was thinking that as I wrote it!

[77 punk]

how would palmers contract be taken on if coventry bought him ?

Edited June 6, 2022 by 77 punk

[SBB]

18 minutes ago, 77 punk said:

how would palmers contract be taken on if coventry bought him ?

See the other thread, in the transfer section.

[downendcity]

KP might well chose to stay here just to pick up £1m in wages for the last ear of his contract, but if he's not playing during that time, what then for him? 

With no game time for us, and a history of failing to produce at a few clubs, when his contract finishes in a years' time there is a real danger that he could be offered  a substantial drop in wages and only a short term contract by a new club, which is not great for a player in his his prime.

Conversely, and while his stock is still reasonably good ( skill , ability and potential if someone can get it out of him) there is some logic to a mutual agreement to tear up his contract. While he might then lose out on the £1m wages he would have picked up here over the last year of his present contract, a new club could compensate for that with a decent signing on fee, as they would not have to pay a transfer fee to us. Also, while he would almost certainly have to take a drop on his current wages there is a good chance that he would still be on a good money and crucially on something like a 2/3 year deal.

In addition to the above and as has already been suggested, we might also contribute towards his wages to "sweeten" the deal for both KP and a potential new club, in order to get him off the books and thereby improve our ffp position.

 

[The Bard]

8 hours ago, 77 punk said:

how would palmers contract be taken on if coventry bought him ?

That would be subject to negotiation between him and his agent, us and the buying club.  

We'd still probably have to pay him something for him to essentially rip up his contract with us.  Once that's done,  he'll probably then accept much lower wage at a new club but over 2 or 3 years.

If he thinks he can sit on his arse for another year and still get a decent contract next season he's kidding himself.  He's probably already got a reputation similar to Jack Rodwell 

[And Its Smith]

5 minutes ago, The Bard said:

That would be subject to negotiation between him and his agent, us and the buying club.  

We'd still probably have to pay him something for him to essentially rip up his contract with us.  Once that's done,  he'll probably then accept much lower wage at a new club but over 2 or 3 years.

If he thinks he can sit on his arse for another year and still get a decent contract next season he's kidding himself.  He's probably already got a reputation similar to Jack Rodwell 

There will always be a club who is willing to sign players like Kasey Palmer on a free for a 2 year deal and pay him good money so I think he probably could get a decent contract next season.  Coaches will back themselves to improve his desire 

[The Bard]

5 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

There will always be a club who is willing to sign players like Kasey Palmer on a free for a 2 year deal and pay him good money so I think he probably could get a decent contract next season.  Coaches will back themselves to improve his desire 

I find that bizarre. Surely it would be better to sign someone with a superb attitude who will improve technically because of their football coaching.  

They read SAF's autobiography and they think they're geniuses in man-management.

[1960maaan]

On 29/05/2022 at 17:08, robin for life said:

As a club, we should be scouting the A League, as a lot of young players are getting a lot of game time and experience out there now. There's a lot of under 25s who would not cost the earth and given the max wage they would have been on is 7,500 a week, we would be an attractive proposition.

Lachlan Wales (Western United), Birkan Kirdar (Melbourne Victory), Daniel Walsh (Perth Glory), Tate Russell (Western Sydney) & George Blackwood (Adelaide United) are all very good promising players who have stood out this year and could easily play at Championship Level, and a few of these will end up Socceroo's before long. If we were to lose one of our midfielders or strikers in the summer, Lachlan Wales or George Blackwood could certainly come in and do a job.

 

If you haven't already, you should stick these suggestions on the ** Independent Fans Scouting Group ** page on here.

[TheReds]

On 29/05/2022 at 15:10, Superjack said:

Said it at the start and I'll say it again. "Show Pony".

Could have understood why we signed him if we hadn't already seen him on loan.

Was delighted when we signed Kalas and Dasilva permanently. I said at the time, "We have got the two we needed". Then Ashton and Johnson couldn't help themselves.

It will sting, but I think we should just pay the ****er up and get shot.

As much is it was down to them, didn't the majority of fans want him as well? I cannot remember too much negativity before signing him permanently, or when it was a done deal. It just hasn't worked out, he needs to play in the right type of formation/team/players etc.

Reading some of the stuff on here (now) you would think nobody at all wanted him bar Ashton/LJ, which was definitely not the case.

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, TheReds said:

As much is it was down to them, didn't the majority of fans want him as well? I cannot remember too much negativity before signing him permanently, or when it was a done deal. It just hasn't worked out, he needs to play in the right type of formation/team/players etc.

Reading some of the stuff on here (now) you would think nobody at all wanted him bar Ashton/LJ, which was definitely not the case.

I was certainly happy he signed, but questioned the timing and the strategy having already signed Szmodics and Pato being here.

It hasn’t worked out bar a 5 game spell in 19/20 and another 5 game spell when returning from his Swansea loan in 20/21.

[TheReds]

4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I was certainly happy he signed, but questioned the timing and the strategy having already signed Szmodics and Pato being here.

It hasn’t worked out bar a 5 game spell in 19/20 and another 5 game spell when returning from his Swansea loan in 20/21.

I do not disagree, but no doubt there are many on here where who seem to imply we should have never have signed him, worse signing ever (hindsight), yet I really cannot remember a huge bunch of people actually against the signing at the time, and it seemed to me (I may well be wrong), that the huge majority of fans were ecstatic when it was announced.

[Leveller]

17 minutes ago, TheReds said:

I do not disagree, but no doubt there are many on here where who seem to imply we should have never have signed him, worse signing ever (hindsight), yet I really cannot remember a huge bunch of people actually against the signing at the time, and it seemed to me (I may well be wrong), that the huge majority of fans were ecstatic when it was announced.

Football fans seem ridiculously prone to extremes of adulation and dislike.

Palmer was obviously hugely popular at one stage - or with one group - given the crowd song that was prevalent for a while.

Now, people talk as if he was bought by the management as an act of sheer folly that we all recognised at the time.

[PHILINFRANCE]

Palmer wasn't the first 'star' player signed after fans' loud adulation following a successful loan.

I seem to recall a similar situation with Lee Tomlin.

[1960maaan]

1 hour ago, Leveller said:

Football fans seem ridiculously prone to extremes of adulation and dislike.

Palmer was obviously hugely popular at one stage - or with one group - given the crowd song that was prevalent for a while.

Now, people talk as if he was bought by the management as an act of sheer folly that we all recognised at the time.

I think it's somewhere between the two.

It was a very strange buy, and it's been talked about before.
We had Szmodics all through pre season doing well. Then just as Swansea looked to sign Palmer, we dived in. 
He did look very good at times, with Afobe/Weimann ahead of him we looked like we could be decent. Then we had a spell where we were struggling. No one looked good in that side and Palmer looked like a luxury player.
I still think he's a good player, in the right side. I also think that Covers could be a good fit for him.

Without doubt it's good to get his wage off of the Bill, shame we couldn't get some of that £2m back, but we have to be grateful for small mercies .

[TheReds]

13 minutes ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

Palmer wasn't the first 'star' player signed after fans' loud adulation following a successful loan.

I seem to recall a similar situation with Lee Tomlin.

I was just going to mention him myself!

[GTFABM]

1 hour ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

Palmer wasn't the first 'star' player signed after fans' loud adulation following a successful loan.

I seem to recall a similar situation with Lee Tomlin.

Difference is Tomlin was more than decent on loan. Palmer really didn’t show anything of note.