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2 hours ago, Sheltons Army said:

Southgate needs two results in September and a very decent WC or he’s toast (I think he will walk post WC)

What happens if we get tonked in those 2 games against Germany and Italy?

Too late to change at that point, and it will be f****** toxic with the fans and media. 

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2 hours ago, Fordy62 said:

I’m torn here. Never been a Southgate fan. Didn’t deserve the job, plays a poor standard of football and my word doesn’t make the most of what could be considered a fairly golden generation. But… he’s done well so far. 

We won’t win with him at the helm, but at the same time he’s done too well to be sacked.

Remember when Southampton did really really well under Adkins (I think) and then they really really harshly sacked him and everybody thought it was silly. I feel like that’s where we’re at with GS. But the FA won’t be as ruthless as Saints were. 

But didn't they replace Adkins with Pochettino. I think Adkins was quickly forgotten. If Pochettino was English, he'd be a great Southgate replacement.  

Southgate will stay because he says the right things for the FA.  England need more but all other possible English managers are probably too young for the job.

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I think some credit needs to be given to the Hungarians… they are currently topping a group consisting of ourselves, Germany and Italy. I doubt anybody gave them a chance but they’ve done really well.

England though…. We are on our worst run of results since I can remember. Zero goals scored from open play in 360 minutes of football… Not the sort of form you want to be taking into the world cup.

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Held of commenting last night as I was pretty disappointed.

Went to the game last night, firstly, Molinuex isn’t fit for purpose IMO. So much congestion in the walk ways, massive queues for toilets and the bar/food. Probably more “traditional” ground but if I was a modern fan used to Wembley, that is not a suitable alternative.

Fans were pretty poor too, constant wolves songs before the game, bore off.

As for the game, many will know I’m a Southgate fan and I’m probably guilty of viewing England through very rose-tinted glasses but I’ll try and be constructive.

That was embarrassing tonight. I’d make an argument that 4 games in 10 days after a long season is poor. The players should have been given as much time off as possible.

That said, once they are there they have to do more. I thought Phillips was poor, never made space for himself and didn’t get on the ball forcing the back line to either keep the ball far too long, or pump it up the pitch.

When we did pick the ball up in midfield it was too slow, meaning more often then not they had to recycle possession going backwards again.

Bowen and Saka had poor games. Fatigue? Maybe. Not good enough yet, probably. Found Bowen too predictable with the ball and Saka just couldn’t pass or control a ball.

Bellingham is an odd one. I want him to be good, but I don’t see the hype (I don’t watch German football). There’s probably a player kn there but again, not yet.

The game was screaming out for Grealish. I can’t stand the lad but he gives us some intent going forward and he scares defenders. He has to be playing in these games, it’s criminal that he isn’t.

Mount actually looked tidy when he came on, but we only really did anything on the counter. We couldn’t break Hungary down and it was incredibly frustrating to watch.

im a big Southgate fan, he’s given me the two best summers watching England and he’s improved us in terms of results. I completely understand the criticism he gets though, and I said before perhaps someone else would get more out of these players now. I just don’t know who would want it and do that?

I’m not going to make a knee jerk reaction and say sack Southgate, but things change quickly in football. These 4 games have been awful so September is huge now to restore some pride. He’s still in credit with a lot of fans but he needs to learn quickly from this.

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7 hours ago, billywedlock said:

Totally unnecessary tournament , there are too many games , from over exposed European leagues to international. I did not know we were playing until I saw this thread tonight .

However , there have to be doubts about Southgate , despite his results , we do have some very good players and many of them attacking , but you would be hard pressed to see that when England play .  The Italy game still rankles , we played into their hands . It seems he has no clear idea how to maximise the talent available . The results of course allow him another go , but I just have the feeling we are nowhere near the potential of the squad . 
 

Back to tonight , I would think most of the team just want a rest and want to get away and have a rest before they restart pre season . too many games . 

Same with me, I thought it was on Wednesday, wish it had been now. Went to bed after the second goal, saw the writing was on the wall.  Bearing in mind we are  2 hours in front of the UK.

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57 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

I’ve never been convinced by Southgate despite the tournament results. I’d love him to prove me wrong but he just doesn’t strike me as a winner. 

I’d be quite happy for him to go - the only viable option I can think of is Graham Potter who I think would likely be an upgrade.

I've never been convinced by is basically saying I don't like but haven't yet felt justified in criticising. 

Most of The criticism up to now has been absolutely ludicrous and is more a reflection of the poisonous 'culture war' whipped up by the right wing media than football.  Southgate is obviously more Guardian than Sun so would have got both barrels at some point. 

Now they have the poor run they were dreaming of they can really go for it.  

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14 minutes ago, The Bard said:

I've never been convinced by is basically saying I don't like but haven't yet felt justified in criticising. 

Most of The criticism up to now has been absolutely ludicrous and is more a reflection of the poisonous 'culture war' whipped up by the right wing media than football.  Southgate is obviously more Guardian than Sun so would have got both barrels at some point. 

Now they have the poor run they were dreaming of they can really go for it.  

Complete nonsense used as excuses by Guardian readers.

Ive seen no hate at all on Southgate by any "ring wing" outlets. He's hardly had it the same as Eriksson (personal life stuff) Mclaren or Hodgson.

The criticism is due to performances, team selections and tactics.

An easy obvious recent example is the 1-0 loss to Hungary. 5 at the back with 2 defensive mids in front. Its infuriating and frustrating to see us set up like that when we are clearly more talented going forward. Last night may not of shown it, but the players looked clueless.  Thats down to him. He has no idea how to utilise attack minded players. He is to scared to lose. 

Plus a complete lack of experience. It was a barmy appointment to begin with imo. He did well, I think that time has been and gone now. 

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20 minutes ago, The Bard said:

I've never been convinced by is basically saying I don't like but haven't yet felt justified in criticising

Most of The criticism up to now has been absolutely ludicrous and is more a reflection of the poisonous 'culture war' whipped up by the right wing media than football.  Southgate is obviously more Guardian than Sun so would have got both barrels at some point. 

Now they have the poor run they were dreaming of they can really go for it.  

To an extent that’s true yes. My gut feeling about him has always been negative. Similar to when we appointed Holden in many ways.

His tournament record is obviously very good - I just feel he won’t win us a tournament and risks wasting this talented group of players. 

I’m not too bothered about his politics of personal views - I’m purely talking about him as a manager. 

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7 hours ago, Prime said:

. If Pochettino was English, he'd be a great Southgate replacement.  

Southgate will stay because he says the right things for the FA.  England need more but all other possible English managers are probably too young for the job.

 

Doesn’t it really matter if he isnt English? Still be a great Southgate replacement & soon to be available.

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8 hours ago, Sheltons Army said:

 

I woud guess Phants , a chance to do some intensive work on training ground , probably then give them a few days / a week off , before a mini pre season 

 

Working on passing patterns to get the ball out of his back seven. Hopefully he wont continue thinking Phillips in front of the multiple CB's is a player maker. Possession is well and good but by the time the ball enters the final third, if it does at all it has moss on it. 

 

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Can't win a top level Nations League game and are bottom of their group with just two measly points.

Are French fans calling for the sacking of their World Cup winning manager, Didier Deschamps?

Are they being written off for Qatar?

Are they ****.

England will bounce back under Southgate, our most successful manager since Ramsay.

 

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9 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Working on passing patterns to get the ball out of his back seven. Hopefully he wont continue thinking Phillips in front of the multiple CB's is a player maker. Possession is well and good but by the time the ball enters the final third, if it does at all it has moss on it. 

 

I dont think he does, he was clearly trying different players. Isn't that what most of us have been screaming out for? If he'd played his best 11 and we'd breezed past Hungary like some expected, what would we have learnt? We do that in qualifying.

Nations League is ultimately glorified friendlies, great to win but even if we won the tournament some woudl still be unhappy and say its a pointless trophy.

I think it's silly to call it a back 7. Firstly it was a back 4 and 1 holding last night, then it was a back 3 with wing backs playing high and again still only Phillips "holding". It was in no way a back 7 last night

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11 minutes ago, Curr Avon said:

 

England will bounce back under Southgate, our most successful manager since Ramsay.

 

Good at beating minnows.

Great and winning friendlys.

Been tested 3 times in tournament football and that stands a 0 - 3

He lacks the tactical ability to push on, with the group of players he has the team should be able to compete consistently and imo he has achieved nothing.

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2 minutes ago, RedHienz said:

Good at beating minnows.

Great and winning friendlys.

Been tested 3 times in tournament football and that stands a 0 - 3

He lacks the tactical ability to push on, with the group of players he has the team should be able to compete consistently and imo he has achieved nothing.

He’s got to the final of a major tournament.  Whether you like it or not, that’s an achievement 

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23 minutes ago, MarcusX said:

I dont think he does, he was clearly trying different players. Isn't that what most of us have been screaming out for? If he'd played his best 11 and we'd breezed past Hungary like some expected, what would we have learnt? We do that in qualifying.

Nations League is ultimately glorified friendlies, great to win but even if we won the tournament some woudl still be unhappy and say its a pointless trophy.

I think it's silly to call it a back 7. Firstly it was a back 4 and 1 holding last night, then it was a back 3 with wing backs playing high and again still only Phillips "holding". It was in no way a back 7 last night

No is not silly to call Southgates formations a back seven. Their starting position are deep. Its not width depth and dispersal. And his two or one hm/cdms are deep with focus on reserve principles etc. Phillips holding is no player maker. He is no pivot. He does not make key passes =Problem =Expectation.  

Screaming out for no different players? No idea. I would expect attempts to improve upon high possession low chance creation. In the 3CB's, 2WB's, 2DCM's there is an obvious problem it was obvious in the Euros and it become more obvious now. England cant  play out efficiently. High possession low chance creation has already failed. Performance indicators were there, and this form was in the post. The different  players have not altered MrSouthages shapes, or intent, its still focussed on building play out in the same manners. Hungary dropped off and lapped it up twice. Its a coaching flaw not one of the players making. Same same= Again.

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40 years into being an England fan and I’ma bit tired of England manager bashing. We’ve had what people would call elite managers like Capello and Sven. Popular Englishmen like Bobby Robson, Venables, Keegan. Even an assistant manager to Ferguson in McClaren. None of them having managed to turn England into world or europe beaters. So I’ve little stomach now for laying into Southgate now after losing a couple of friendlies.

I’m more of the opinion that is the players that have let the manager down. Yes, you could argue that Southgate was a bit too defensive in his team selections but even if he’d played a more attacking team I’m not convinced it would have made much difference when they play in that lethargic, just expecting things to happen, way.

I will agree that tactically Southgate, and his coaching team, have some room for improvement but it’s not all doom and gloom. 

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3 hours ago, Wanderingred said:

I think some credit needs to be given to the Hungarians… they are currently topping a group consisting of ourselves, Germany and Italy. I doubt anybody gave them a chance but they’ve done really well.

England though…. We are on our worst run of results since I can remember. Zero goals scored from open play in 360 minutes of football… Not the sort of form you want to be taking into the world cup.

Hungary illustrating the benefit of employing a top level coach

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Southgate has got the most out of the England players, a bit like GJ did with us for one season. I don't think England's players are up to the standard of other top sides, particularly when it comes to intelligence and mental strength. Sacking the manager because he's never likely to win a tournament isn't really valid, no manager has won a tournament with England since Alf Ramsey in 1966 (and that was played at home) so it must be down to the quality of the players available rather than the manager.

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29 minutes ago, RedHienz said:

Good at beating minnows.

Great and winning friendlys.

Been tested 3 times in tournament football and that stands a 0 - 3

He lacks the tactical ability to push on, with the group of players he has the team should be able to compete consistently and imo he has achieved nothing.

Competing consistently is precisely what England have done under Southgate. All the more impressive because the players aren't actually as good as they are often made out to be. 

 

 

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3 hours ago, MarcusX said:

Held of commenting last night as I was pretty disappointed.

Went to the game last night, firstly, Molinuex isn’t fit for purpose IMO. So much congestion in the walk ways, massive queues for toilets and the bar/food. Probably more “traditional” ground but if I was a modern fan used to Wembley, that is not a suitable alternative.

Fans were pretty poor too, constant wolves songs before the game, bore off.

As for the game, many will know I’m a Southgate fan and I’m probably guilty of viewing England through very rose-tinted glasses but I’ll try and be constructive.

That was embarrassing tonight. I’d make an argument that 4 games in 10 days after a long season is poor. The players should have been given as much time off as possible.

That said, once they are there they have to do more. I thought Phillips was poor, never made space for himself and didn’t get on the ball forcing the back line to either keep the ball far too long, or pump it up the pitch.

When we did pick the ball up in midfield it was too slow, meaning more often then not they had to recycle possession going backwards again.

Bowen and Saka had poor games. Fatigue? Maybe. Not good enough yet, probably. Found Bowen too predictable with the ball and Saka just couldn’t pass or control a ball.

Bellingham is an odd one. I want him to be good, but I don’t see the hype (I don’t watch German football). There’s probably a player kn there but again, not yet.

The game was screaming out for Grealish. I can’t stand the lad but he gives us some intent going forward and he scares defenders. He has to be playing in these games, it’s criminal that he isn’t.

Mount actually looked tidy when he came on, but we only really did anything on the counter. We couldn’t break Hungary down and it was incredibly frustrating to watch.

im a big Southgate fan, he’s given me the two best summers watching England and he’s improved us in terms of results. I completely understand the criticism he gets though, and I said before perhaps someone else would get more out of these players now. I just don’t know who would want it and do that?

I’m not going to make a knee jerk reaction and say sack Southgate, but things change quickly in football. These 4 games have been awful so September is huge now to restore some pride. He’s still in credit with a lot of fans but he needs to learn quickly from this.

I think you will find the other teams also played 4 games in 10 days as well, other countries players have also had a long hard season yet it does not seem to have affected a lot of them has it, this constant use of fatigue for players in their teens twenties and early thirties is to me ridiculous. I'm sorry but the manager has to at least take some of the blame when you look at the players at his disposal I would have expected more.

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We have 2 problems as I see it. Our central defence is reliable only when we protect it with holding midfielders  or even add a third CB. If we went gung ho and shoehorned even more attacking players in we’d be shooting ourselves in the foot. Southgate recognises this and picks his team accordingly. If Van Dyk was English we’d have a solution. But he isn’t so we don’t. And Southgate is correct that tournaments are almost always won by the most organised team (with quality thrown in)

secondly, and an issue that has always been a problem, is our midfield struggles to keep the ball against better quality teams. Until we start producing and treasuring more technical midfielders this will continue.

So overall, yes, Southgate may have had relatively kind draws in tournaments, but I actually think he’s got the most out of most players. Let’s not forget the mediocre records of every other England manager going back to Venables (who also had home advantage), and be a bit more realistic about the quality of the squad we actually have, rather than what we think we have.

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1 hour ago, The Bard said:

I've never been convinced by is basically saying I don't like but haven't yet felt justified in criticising. 

Most of The criticism up to now has been absolutely ludicrous and is more a reflection of the poisonous 'culture war' whipped up by the right wing media than football.  Southgate is obviously more Guardian than Sun so would have got both barrels at some point. 

Now they have the poor run they were dreaming of they can really go for it.  

That my friend is a ridiculous thing to say what has politics got to do with the disappointing way we have played in the last 4 games the criticism is entirely justified and I doubt they will be giving him a easy ride in the Guardian either.

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1 hour ago, Curr Avon said:

Can't win a top level Nations League game and are bottom of their group with just two measly points.

Are French fans calling for the sacking of their World Cup winning manager, Didier Deschamps?

Are they being written off for Qatar?

Are they ****.

England will bounce back under Southgate, our most successful manager since Ramsay.

 

I would imagine many France supporters are unhappy at how their extremely talented side has under performed since the 2018 WC. Deschamps should be dismissed as should Southgate imo.

I will add that there is no room for sentiment in Football these days, if you arent performing of what is expected of you for a period of time then off you go, that's why the best remain the best, it's brutal. Kind of like thanks Southgate for what you've done but we need fresh ideas

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3 minutes ago, 2015 said:

I would imagine many France supporters are unhappy at how their extremely talented side has under performed since the 2018 WC. Deschamps should be dismissed as should Southgate imo.

I will add that there is no room for sentiment in Football these days, if you arent performing of what is expected of you for a period of time then off you go, that's why the best remain the best, it's brutal. Kind of like thanks Southgate for what you've done but we need fresh ideas

For a period of time? It's a few bad games

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