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England v Hngary


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4 minutes ago, 2015 said:

I'm guessing you haven't watched our rather lukewarm displays away in Poland and at Home to Hungary at the end of last year either?

Two games that we didn't lose? What an overreaction.

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I mean, getting dicked 4-0 at home is not great is it.

I am never sure if GS is just a really negative coach who is safety first, or he has looked at the assets he has got, and gone 'we re going to play this way as its the best way of maximising our chances. He has got some great cup finishes. The runs were relatively easy. How do you judge that. Its really difficult to look at the Italy final and not see it as summing up GS. Took a final to a penalty shoot out, huge plus. Like Croatia before, when the game started to turn...just a complete absence of tweaking anything. Save all our subs against an obviously tiring defence for the penalty shoot out? Really?

Our tactic is keep it really tight, and hope Kane or Sterling can nick something. When under pressure against good teams we concede midfield and have to do far to much work without the ball. If its a case of actually we are a bit pants and GS is doing the best with what he has, there may both be some truth in that, and its pretty sad.

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, RedHienz said:

Good at beating minnows.

Great and winning friendlys.

Been tested 3 times in tournament football and that stands a 0 - 3

He lacks the tactical ability to push on, with the group of players he has the team should be able to compete consistently and imo he has achieved nothing.

That's incorrect though. Germany aren't a minnow, was definitely a test. Thumped Ukraine, say what you want about them but when have we ever thumped a team in a quarter final?

Showed great ability to beat a favoured Denmark side too. Won our first knockout penalty shoot out in how long?

I wouldn't say he's 3-0 in being "tested". I also wouldn't call Nations League "tournament football" as such.

He's about 5-2 in my book, it's just unfortunate the two losses were so dramatic, perhaps we wouldn't be so upset if we'd lost to Germany as opposed to losing the final to Italy.

Understanding of course that last night is unacceptable, but he's in credit until September at very least.

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2 hours ago, pillred said:

I think you will find the other teams also played 4 games in 10 days as well, other countries players have also had a long hard season yet it does not seem to have affected a lot of them has it, this constant use of fatigue for players in their teens twenties and early thirties is to me ridiculous. I'm sorry but the manager has to at least take some of the blame when you look at the players at his disposal I would have expected more.

Germany have won 1 in 4, France doing as badly as us, Italy poor. I don't think it's an excuse, some of our players have played 50 games + all the way last summer (Germany went home early remember!)

Not sure why you mention their age - nearly all players are in that bracket, are you suggesting it's impossible for players to be fatigued?

 

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If we take a honest look at ourselves and actually be honest we just aren’t that good! We overachieved at the last 2 tournaments even with the the relatively easy runs we’ve had! So if we analyse the starting 11 from the euro final and see if and how they’ve kicked on and if we use the common thought in club football that the Champions league is the highest level you can play! 
 

Gk Pickford! (Everton) 

Whilst being quite Solid Always looks like he has a mistake in him! Also playing for Everton he defiantly gets no Champions League football, (Hasn’t kicked on)

Rwb Trippier (Newcastle) probably our strongest position depth wise but he’s gone from Athetico winning the la Liga and playing Champoins league to playing for Newcastle No Champions league (Hasn’t kicked on)

Cb Walker (Man City) plays mostly RB for Man City he’s solid but like the a formation strength at Rb/Rwb gets shoehorn into the team at cb and doesn’t usually let us down plays Champions league football

Cb Stones (Man City) been in and out of the Man City Team the past few seasons at one point looking like he was going up for sale but when given a run of games and be consistent he’s probably our most talented CB, Plays Champions League.

Cb Maguire (Man Utd) he’s a difficult one last season became a meme and a bit of a running joke! His form was terrible and he is prone to clangers but was usually solid for England! I think if you pick on club form then there’s no way he could be included and it would probably do him good to step out of the firing line to recompose himself. 
next season no Champions league football.

Lwb Shaw (Man Utd) was solid the whole tournament and scored in the final but a inconsistent season last year plus injuries means he hasn’t kicked on from then and that is likely to be his peak! No Champions league next year!

Cm Phillips (Leeds)

this is where we fall down most in terms of squad strength, Can you see him playing for the one of the best Club teams in the world? 26 years old never played European football let alone Champions league! 
 

Cm Rice (West Ham) never Played Champions league although does seem to have some ability!

Lw/lam Mount (Chelsea) he’s a funny one a bit marmite! Like a lot of players of his flits in and out of games but is young has time to work his weaknesses! Plays Champions league!

Rw/Ram Sterling (Man City) Great player probably should score more but is one of our better players! Play Champions league. 
 

Cf Kane (Tottenham) not sure I need to say much about him key player in our team! Plays champion league Football! 
 

now I’m not saying it’s the be all and end all but all the best players play champions league football and by playing the best it’s the best way to learn and improve! But you look at it objectively only 3 (Kane, Walker and Sterling) maybe Stones at a push are considered key players in regular Champions league playing teams so maybe we just ain’t as good as we think we are!

 

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3 hours ago, Atticus said:

Complete nonsense used as excuses by Guardian readers.

Ive seen no hate at all on Southgate by any "ring wing" outlets. He's hardly had it the same as Eriksson (personal life stuff) Mclaren or Hodgson.

The criticism is due to performances, team selections and tactics.

An easy obvious recent example is the 1-0 loss to Hungary. 5 at the back with 2 defensive mids in front. Its infuriating and frustrating to see us set up like that when we are clearly more talented going forward. Last night may not of shown it, but the players looked clueless.  Thats down to him. He has no idea how to utilise attack minded players. He is to scared to lose. 

Plus a complete lack of experience. It was a barmy appointment to begin with imo. He did well, I think that time has been and gone now. 

It's not nonsense. The sniping at him has always been with accusations of 'woke' and political correctness. That's political. 

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4 hours ago, Cowshed said:

Working on passing patterns to get the ball out of his back seven. Hopefully he wont continue thinking Phillips in front of the multiple CB's is a player maker. Possession is well and good but by the time the ball enters the final third, if it does at all it has moss on it. 

 

I think Phants q and my reply was about City 

I may be wrong !

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4 hours ago, Phileas Fogg said:

To an extent that’s true yes. My gut feeling about him has always been negative. Similar to when we appointed Holden in many ways.

His tournament record is obviously very good - I just feel he won’t win us a tournament and risks wasting this talented group of players. 

I’m not too bothered about his politics of personal views - I’m purely talking about him as a manager. 

I got that which is why I pointedly referred to the criticism up till now. Most of it from people who've never watched an England game or who play football manager a lot. 

Overall I think he's done an excellent job. However, he has royally ballsed up his approach these last 4 weeks and I fear it will create a negative momentum going into the tournament.  

He let Henderson have a rest. Should've been 8 or 9 others as well. If we'd got the same results with 2nd/3rd choice players few would've really complained as even the most myopic could see that resting these players was done for the right reasons.  His desire to test combinations has proved futile and brought a lot of pressure on him. He also cannot be any wiser about some of the newer players as they got dragged down by their more experienced, knackered team mates.

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2 hours ago, And Its Smith said:

I look forward to the Pearson out calls if we lose our first two games of next season!

You clearly don’t get the difference between Club Management and International and being Manager of England

Even ignoring it was one of our few chances to prepare for the WC and fwiw it was the equivalent of us losing 4-0 at home against Stockport which undoubtedly attract many calls for Pearson’s head

 

Ill remind you

Remaining doubts about his defensive mind and lack of tactical nous

4 games , 

Two defeats to Hungary

1 goal , a penalty

Outplayed for significant periods by Italy and Germany when Pickford And Ramsdale saved defeats

And the WORST home defeat by margin (Ignoring the fact it was Hungary :laugh: , not an all conquering Brazil side)

IN 94 YEARS

 

Thats some achievement

 

You appear to have your blind faith in Johnson syndrome reoccurring 

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Just now, Sheltons Army said:

You clearly don’t get the difference between Club Management and International and being Manager of England

Even ignoring it was one of our few chances to prepare for the WC and fwiw it was the equivalent of us losing 4-0 at home against Stockport which undoubtedly attract many calls for Pearson’s head

 

Ill remind you

Remaining doubts about his defensive mind and lack of tactical nous

4 games , 

Two defeats to Hungary

1 goal , a penalty

Outplayed for significant periods by Italy and Germany when Pickford And Ramsdale saved defeats

And the WORST home defeat by margin (Ignoring the fact it was Hungary :laugh: , not an all conquering Brazil side)

IN 94 YEARS

 

Thats some achievement

 

You appear to have your blind faith in Johnson syndrome reoccurring 

What a bizarre rant in response to a light hearted comment about fans short term thinking.  For the record, I don’t particularly care about the England team or Southgate.  It is funny that you mention the 94 year record and don’t mention that he got us to a major final last year for the first time for ages.  Some fans have a personal dislike for Southgate it seems and focus on the negatives whilst ignoring the positives.  Goodness only knows why 

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5 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

What a bizarre rant in response to a light hearted comment about fans short term thinking.  For the record, I don’t particularly care about the England team or Southgate.  It is funny that you mention the 94 year record and don’t mention that he got us to a major final last year for the first time for ages.  Some fans have a personal dislike for Southgate it seems and focus on the negatives whilst ignoring the positives.  Goodness only knows why 

Funny how , when you get a response to your nonsense comments that it’s always ‘it was a lighthearted comment / joke’ 

 

PS - It’s not a rant , it’s facts -

 unlike you who aligns himself to anything foreign I am proud to be English , and last night was as bad as I’ve seen in my lifetime , including many awful showings as I followed them across the World

It was simply , a shambolic embarrassment

 

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1 minute ago, Sheltons Army said:

Funny how , when you get a response to your nonsense comments that it’s always ‘it was a lighthearted comment / joke’ 

 

Well clearly I don’t think that Pearson Out comments will happen if we lose the first two games!!  If we are in the bottom 3 in November though, there will a fair bit of it.  

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2 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

Well clearly I don’t think that Pearson Out comments will happen if we lose the first two games!!  If we are in the bottom 3 in November though, there will a fair bit of it.  

You know our fans right, we lose a couple of friendlies and the haters will be all over Pearson. 

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5 hours ago, MarcusX said:

Germany have won 1 in 4, France doing as badly as us, Italy poor. I don't think it's an excuse, some of our players have played 50 games + all the way last summer (Germany went home early remember!)

Not sure why you mention their age - nearly all players are in that bracket, are you suggesting it's impossible for players to be fatigued?

 

No but I find it incredible that after even a week off players that age would be tired, that's all.

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2 hours ago, pillred said:

No but I find it incredible that after even a week off players that age would be tired, that's all.

You’ve used fatigue and tired there as if they are the same thing. There’s more to fatigue than just “tired”. Theres also mental fatigue, at the end of the day this is a job to them. Players deserve time off to recharge the batteries and enjoy time with their families.

Given the Euros were played a year later and we’ve got a World Cup I think it was silly to squeeze a Nations League in this year personally.

 

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1 hour ago, MarcusX said:

You’ve used fatigue and tired there as if they are the same thing. There’s more to fatigue than just “tired”. Theres also mental fatigue, at the end of the day this is a job to them. Players deserve time off to recharge the batteries and enjoy time with their families.

Given the Euros were played a year later and we’ve got a World Cup I think it was silly to squeeze a Nations League in this year personally.

 

There was a decent interval between the season finishing and the Nations league, we have all had jobs I got a coupe of weeks off twice a year if I was lucky, why would playing a game you loved make you fatigued? I'm sorry but I just don't buy it, sorry but we will have to agree to disagree.

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6 minutes ago, pillred said:

There was a decent interval between the season finishing and the Nations league, we have all had jobs I got a coupe of weeks off twice a year if I was lucky, why would playing a game you loved make you fatigued? I'm sorry but I just don't buy it, sorry but we will have to agree to disagree.

You're talking nonsense in fairness. 

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1 hour ago, Super said:

You're talking nonsense in fairness. 

Go on then explain yourself instead of insulting me. How is playing football going to make you mentally or physically tired or fatigued after a two week break I will be interested to hear as I'm sure a lot of other people with far more demanding and stressful jobs that don't pay £100,000 grand a week will be.

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52 minutes ago, pillred said:

Go on then explain yourself instead of insulting me. How is playing football going to make you mentally or physically tired or fatigued after a two week break I will be interested to hear as I'm sure a lot of other people with far more demanding and stressful jobs that don't pay £100,000 grand a week will be.

Forget the two week “holiday” which for a professional player will still involve a daily routine of stretching, exercising, etc…just forget that.  Our seasons are workload heavy.  Most other leagues play 34 league games, less importance is put on cups, etc.

It is possible to go “stale” if nothing else (covering both mental and physical fatigue) from playing and training lots.  Happens below pro level too.

For info, playing football as a professional is much more than playing 90 minutes once or twice a week, it’s a daily routine of discipline, sacrifice for which the minority are paid handsomely.

Comparing it to other jobs and then using the amount of money versus stress as rationale is very naive and without trying to sound insulting shows a complete lack of understanding of the world of professional football, the short career and the stresses that places on a player, knowing that your shelf-life isn’t 40 years of employment (like you or I) in your skilled area, but on average 6-8 years of maximising pay to set you and your family up for a fair chunk of the rest of your life.

Do we have have to perform in front of thousands too?  Do the media write and comment about you to millions.

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Sporting bodies are more powerful than the law! So uefa decided on the verge of a world cup,and with the season starting early to carry on and play the nations league.Thus giving players no break .Kevin De Bruyne described these games as glorified friendlies and that is exactly what they are.But uefa has spoken so we must obey! All players should be resting now and preparing for the coming season.Not bothered by the England results,come the world cup the commitment, the team selection will be on a much higher level.and we should get out of the group stage easily enough(famous last words?) I don't believe we will wn the world cup,although we have a great crop of players. And i am not calling for Southgate's head even though i am not a fan.Descisions or lack of descisions he made during the WC semi and the euro final cost us dearly.1-0 up at the break against Croatia,not Germany or Brazil or Argentina but Croatia!! In the 2nd half we seemed drained of energy and devoid of ideas,in the euro finals we took a very early lead,and then just went back and back and disappeared up our own backsides in a cloud of blue smoke,then came the penalty debacle! For my money he is mister safety first,and does not trust the flair players,and cannot make the right calls during a game.Happy to be proved wrong?

 

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8 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Forget the two week “holiday” which for a professional player will still involve a daily routine of stretching, exercising, etc…just forget that.  Our seasons are workload heavy.  Most other leagues play 34 league games, less importance is put on cups, etc.

It is possible to go “stale” if nothing else (covering both mental and physical fatigue) from playing and training lots.  Happens below pro level too.

For info, playing football as a professional is much more than playing 90 minutes once or twice a week, it’s a daily routine of discipline, sacrifice for which the minority are paid handsomely.

Comparing it to other jobs and then using the amount of money versus stress as rationale is very naive and without trying to sound insulting shows a complete lack of understanding of the world of professional football, the short career and the stresses that places on a player, knowing that your shelf-life isn’t 40 years of employment (like you or I) in your skilled area, but on average 6-8 years of maximising pay to set you and your family up for a fair chunk of the rest of your life.

Do we have have to perform in front of thousands too?  Do the media write and comment about you to millions.

There may well be mental pressures on players, it's the players look tired physically bit I don't get, surely after even a weeks rest a young and they are young players should not be tired and that's the excuse I have been hearing time and time again for England's poor performances in the Nations league.

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11 hours ago, pillred said:

There was a decent interval between the season finishing and the Nations league, we have all had jobs I got a coupe of weeks off twice a year if I was lucky, why would playing a game you loved make you fatigued? I'm sorry but I just don't buy it, sorry but we will have to agree to disagree.

 

Because the game is physical and mental. A player cannot physically maintain physical fitness for an entire season, or an extended season. Fitness morphs over months. Fitness over a season diminishes frequently. Pre-season training involves threshold training. Players will be exerted over normal physical norms to gain a physical peak at the start of the season. This training to attain that physical peak cannot be endured physically season long, the body will fail, and players bodies over a season have to fatigue. 

With respect the game of football cannot be compared to normal employment. I work in an industry that is extremely stressful, but the stresses cant be compared to football. I don’t go into work expected to be in a aggressive intense challenge state. My work doesn’t fill my body full of performance and stress inducing hormones. I do not experience extreme highs of emotion in my work.  I also do not have employment that strips me of my autonomy in the same manner as  foootball does to individuals. To play football you effectively surrender aspects of your personality to a coaches/Managers direction, to a game.

I loved football and train train game at Tiverton train train game at Taunton ****** my head months into a season.

.

 

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32 minutes ago, pillred said:

There may well be mental pressures on players, it's the players look tired physically bit I don't get, surely after even a weeks rest a young and they are young players should not be tired and that's the excuse I have been hearing time and time again for England's poor performances in the Nations league.

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31 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Because the game is physical and mental

Nutshell….and the stuff you posted below it to explain.

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