Massengo: sell vs keep + compensation

[SecretSam]

Morning campers,

I was listening to the 3Peeps pod last week about our various transfer dealings (good stuff, BTW) and they mentioned that one option for us with HNM was to keep him and get compensation when/if he leaves at the end of his contract - if the bids are only (say) £2m, we might get that in compo, and we'd keep him another season.

Anyone know how this works?

[RedRoss]

I heard that too but that would be very risky as I'm sure we wouldn't get compensation if a foreign team offered him a contract when it runs down.

Think the only way we would get compensation is if a English club offered a contract due to his age.

[Davefevs]

20 minutes ago, RedRoss said:

I heard that too but that would be very risky as I'm sure we wouldn't get compensation if a foreign team offered him a contract when it runs down.

Think the only way we would get compensation is if a English club offered a contract due to his age.

For those of you that read the Reuben McAllister thread on the transfer sub-forum, I mentioned that yesterday I was reading up on “compo”, both the EPPP stuff for academy / young players but also the FIFA RSTP Training Development and Solidarity Payments stuff.  The other reason for doing so was because of Han.  I’d read some stuff before but it isn’t straightforward.

In Han’s case he is beyond the EPPP stuff, and therefore if he was to run his contract down he falls into two camps next summer:

1. signs for an English FA team - compo is governed by the PFCC (Professional Football Compensation Committee)…what we often refer to as “gone to tribunal”
2. signs for a club outside of the English FA - compo is governed by FIFA RSTP (Regulations on the Status of Players and Transfers) and because it’s end of contract, it would be Training Compensation.

At it’s most simple level, 1. would mean significantly more compo than 2.

My gut feel is that should he be allowed to wind his contract down he would move back home (or abroad), so the upshot is we can’t afford to let a €3m signing go and only get approx €300k in Compo.  I suspect we’d get £3m through PFCC.

Personally I hope he signs a new deal, but if he won’t, then we must sell in this window.

In January he can sign pre-contract terms with non-English FA clubs….so we can’t wait til the winter window.

 

[Monkeh]

I'm not actually that bothered, he stays he will give 100%as that's the type of person he is, he's also forfilled his contract obligations to us and we will receive compo regardless

He signs a new contract great

He leaves for a transfer fee, we lose a good player but all players can be replaced and it helps the clubs ffp problems

[Major Isewater]

We can only sell him if there is a buyer. Apparently there have been no bids as yet. If we or he is counting on returning to France to play then 99% of French clubs are skint and the others are probably too high a level ,just yet , to entertain signing the lad for their first team. 

[RoystonFoote'snephew]

I'm with Davefevs and Monkeh on this. I'd like him to sign as I believe there's more development to come. However, if he's not going to sign then we must sell this window. 

[Clutton Caveman]

I think this a classic case of much potential but little end product. The guys appeals to the young fans because he is sort of cool and they actually have a song for him but I wonder if he was a carrot top form deepest wales if he would get the same interest.

For me he is now old enough to have gained some level of consistency and got rid of his 2-3 serious mistakes per game.

He shows us occasionally what he can do but far too rarely. He can't shoot and loses the ball in some awful positions.

I think he has potential but I hope that a lack of serious offers will make him realise that hype and potential are no longer enough and he has to get his head down and improve a lot. I think his game is better suited to the continent than EFL but if he wants a decent move he needs to show some consistent form.

[Monkeh]

21 minutes ago, Clutton Caveman said:

I think this a classic case of much potential but little end product. The guys appeals to the young fans because he is sort of cool and they actually have a song for him but I wonder if he was a carrot top form deepest wales if he would get the same interest.

For me he is now old enough to have gained some level of consistency and got rid of his 2-3 serious mistakes per game.

He shows us occasionally what he can do but far too rarely. He can't shoot and loses the ball in some awful positions.

I think he has potential but I hope that a lack of serious offers will make him realise that hype and potential are no longer enough and he has to get his head down and improve a lot. I think his game is better suited to the continent than EFL but if he wants a decent move he needs to show some consistent form.

He's 20 not 27, he's still learning

[RedRoss]

6 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

He's 20 not 27, he's still learning

Agreed I think fans forget this as he was introduced to the first team very early on.

He gets less patience than others in his age bracket because of his exposure to the team which is wrong. Semenyo is case and point to not writing players off this early in their careers.

[Davefevs]

19 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

He's 20 not 27, he's still learning

2 minutes ago, RedRoss said:

Agreed I think fans forget this as he was introduced to the first team very early on.

He gets less patience than others in his age bracket because of his exposure to the team which is wrong. Semenyo is case and point to not writing players off this early in their careers.

Agree. Both.

3 months older than Sam Pearson.

3 months younger than Owura Edwards.

18 months younger than Antoine Semenyo / Saikou Janneh (just picking these two shows the broad spectrum).

Callum O’Dowda was allowed to be inconsistent at 26, Jamie Paterson at 29.

He also doesn’t make 2-3 serious mistakes per match.

 

[Simon79]

9 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Agree. Both.

3 months older than Sam Pearson.

3 months younger than Owura Edwards.

18 months younger than Antoine Semenyo / Saikou Janneh (just picking these two shows the broad spectrum).

Callum O’Dowda was allowed to be inconsistent at 26, Jamie Paterson at 29.

He also doesn’t make 2-3 serious mistakes per match.

 

All the while doing it in a different country & in the most competitive league in the world. Hopefully signs & improves with us, but if he won’t, as gutting as it would be, we need to sell him in this window. COYR 

[SecretSam]

4 hours ago, Davefevs said:

For those of you that read the Reuben McAllister thread on the transfer sub-forum, I mentioned that yesterday I was reading up on “compo”, both the EPPP stuff for academy / young players but also the FIFA RSTP Training Development and Solidarity Payments stuff.  The other reason for doing so was because of Han.  I’d read some stuff before but it isn’t straightforward.

In Han’s case he is beyond the EPPP stuff, and therefore if he was to run his contract down he falls into two camps next summer:

1. signs for an English FA team - compo is governed by the PFCC (Professional Football Compensation Committee)…what we often refer to as “gone to tribunal”
2. signs for a club outside of the English FA - compo is governed by FIFA RSTP (Regulations on the Status of Players and Transfers) and because it’s end of contract, it would be Training Compensation.

At it’s most simple level, 1. would mean significantly more compo than 2.

My gut feel is that should he be allowed to wind his contract down he would move back home (or abroad), so the upshot is we can’t afford to let a €3m signing go and only get approx €300k in Compo.  I suspect we’d get £3m through PFCC.

Personally I hope he signs a new deal, but if he won’t, then we must sell in this window.

In January he can sign pre-contract terms with non-English FA clubs….so we can’t wait til the winter window.

 

Thanks, sad, but I think we have to resign ourselves to him leaving.

[SecretSam]

1 hour ago, Clutton Caveman said:

I think this a classic case of much potential but little end product. The guys appeals to the young fans because he is sort of cool and they actually have a song for him but I wonder if he was a carrot top form deepest wales if he would get the same interest.

For me he is now old enough to have gained some level of consistency and got rid of his 2-3 serious mistakes per game.

He's 20 years old, FFS, if you can't make mistakes at age 20, when can you? At what point does development stop? As long as he learns from his errors and/or is taught about how to avoid them, he'll improve.

[PHILINFRANCE]

3 hours ago, Clutton Caveman said:

I think this a classic case of much potential but little end product. The guys appeals to the young fans because he is sort of cool and they actually have a song for him but I wonder if he was a carrot top from deepest wales if he would get the same interest.

You mean, like Sam Pearson?

Seriously, Han-Noah has become a sort of cult player; because he is 'cool' as you say, but also because of that haircut .

Personally, I like him, both as a player and because of his personality/haircut, and whilst, of course, he still has lots to learn, I hope he stays here long enough to prove himself.

 

[Rocking Red Cyril]

6 hours ago, RoystonFoote'snephew said:

I'm with Davefevs and Monkeh on this. I'd like him to sign as I believe there's more development to come. However, if he's not going to sign then we must sell this window. 

But we need offers to buy to sell 

2 hours ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

You mean, like Sam Pearson?

Seriously, Han-Noah has become a sort of cult player; because he is 'cool' as you say, but also because of that haircut .

Personally, I like him, both as a player and because of his personality/haircut, and whilst, of course, he still has lots to learn, I hope he stays here long enough to prove himself.

 

Am I the only one that thinks his hair cut looks bloody silly 

[JackofromSanJavier]

25 minutes ago, Rocking Red Cyril said:

But we need offers to buy to sell 

Am I the only one that thinks his hair cut looks bloody silly 

 

Are you being hair-ist?  Disgraceful  

[RoystonFoote'snephew]

1 hour ago, Rocking Red Cyril said:

But we need offers to buy to sell 

Am I the only one that thinks his hair cut looks bloody silly 

Fair point. Perhaps we could loan him to Chelsea for a big fat fee. They've never got enough players on their books. 

[cidercity1987]

Can't we sell him to Ipswich or something?

The fact he is being compared to local prospects like Pearson and Bell who definitely haven't cost us £5m-£6m in fees and wages shows what a failure this whole thing has been

[Fammyfan]

We have to assess the likelihood of him signing, if it’s unlikely then we should get rid.

As much as Han is a decent player, even a cut price fee will allow us to get a replacement, albeit with considerably less potential. Potential matters for nothing when the player isn’t signing.

Whilst we don’t know about any offers so far, we haven’t even reached July yet. I’d be highly surprised if no premiership clubs are willing to take a punt.

We should be looking north of £5m had the contract situation been in our side. However, if cut price, we should still be expecting at least £3m, I’d be surprised if nobody would drop to this price. It’s a small fee in relation to the costs incurred but a fee which can help towards our financial struggles or go a long way in todays market should we be looking for a replacement

[KegCity]

20 hours ago, Clutton Caveman said:

I think this a classic case of much potential but little end product. The guys appeals to the young fans because he is sort of cool and they actually have a song for him but I wonder if he was a carrot top form deepest wales if he would get the same interest.

For me he is now old enough to have gained some level of consistency and got rid of his 2-3 serious mistakes per game.

He shows us occasionally what he can do but far too rarely. He can't shoot and loses the ball in some awful positions.

I think he has potential but I hope that a lack of serious offers will make him realise that hype and potential are no longer enough and he has to get his head down and improve a lot. I think his game is better suited to the continent than EFL but if he wants a decent move he needs to show some consistent form.

It's the other way round. If he was born in Clifton he'd be labelled as a future England player, worthy of a record breaking fee etc etc. As others have said he's only 20, very promising and consistent when on the pitch. 

I don't understand what he's done to be written off, I assume it goes back to the "he hasn't scored" argument which makes no sense. He offers something nobody else does in our midfield which is direct play, a lot of energy and quick feet. He's undoubtedly worth extending but equally if he won't sign we need to cash in.

[Davefevs]

5 minutes ago, KegCity said:

It's the other way round. If he was born in Clifton he'd be labelled as a future England player, worthy of a record breaking fee etc etc. As others have said he's only 20, very promising and consistent when on the pitch. 

I don't understand what he's done to be written off, I assume it goes back to the "he hasn't scored" argument which makes no sense. He offers something nobody else does in our midfield which is direct play, a lot of energy and quick feet. He's undoubtedly worth extending but equally if he won't sign we need to cash in.

It was only one year ago, several posters had written off the goalscoring “potential” of Antoine Semenyo, a player who plays as a forward.  It is the way of OTIB, to make your mind up quickly and then steadfastly/ stubbornly stick to that view, either against actual evidence or historical evidence that young players improve.

I’m a big fan of Massengo, and I do recognise he’s not a kid through our academy, and that we paid €3m for him (and his wages)…but we paid €3m for long term value.  We don’t know who is driving the possibility of leaving, is it club not offering enough, Massengo asking too much, another club forcing the issue with a big fee…but it just feels disappointing to me that we are possibly going to lose a player who is still developing at such a young age.

[headhunter]

46 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

It was only one year ago, several posters had written off the goalscoring “potential” of Antoine Semenyo, a player who plays as a forward.  It is the way of OTIB, to make your mind up quickly and then steadfastly/ stubbornly stick to that view, either against actual evidence or historical evidence that young players improve.

I’m a big fan of Massengo, and I do recognise he’s not a kid through our academy, and that we paid €3m for him (and his wages)…but we paid €3m for long term value.  We don’t know who is driving the possibility of leaving, is it club not offering enough, Massengo asking too much, another club forcing the issue with a big fee…but it just feels disappointing to me that we are possibly going to lose a player who is still developing at such a young age.

For Massengo asking for "too much" perhaps it should read his agent? I posted on Twitter yesterday that if he hangs around here until next summer he's bound to get some minutes even if he isn't first choice in a 3 and as a free agent [save for some meagre compo] he and his agent get a better deal as there is no fee involved.

[Davefevs]

21 minutes ago, headhunter said:

For Massengo asking for "too much" perhaps it should read his agent? I posted on Twitter yesterday that if he hangs around here until next summer he's bound to get some minutes even if he isn't first choice in a 3 and as a free agent [save for some meagre compo] he and his agent get a better deal as there is no fee involved.

Han’s agent is his dad I think…so I’m not sure that will come into the equation!

[NcnsBcfc]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

It was only one year ago, several posters had written off the goalscoring “potential” of Antoine Semenyo, a player who plays as a forward.  It is the way of OTIB, to make your mind up quickly and then steadfastly/ stubbornly stick to that view, either against actual evidence or historical evidence that young players improve.

I’m a big fan of Massengo, and I do recognise he’s not a kid through our academy, and that we paid €3m for him (and his wages)…but we paid €3m for long term value.  We don’t know who is driving the possibility of leaving, is it club not offering enough, Massengo asking too much, another club forcing the issue with a big fee…but it just feels disappointing to me that we are possibly going to lose a player who is still developing at such a young age.

@Davefevs

Dave, although you and I disagree on HNM, I actually have no problem on him staying per se.

The issue is that we probably need to sell one of our 4 most sellable assets (Weimann, HNM, Scott & Semenyeo) in order to probably allay any potential FFP considerations allied to an upgrade of a squad that has struggled in the last two seasons.

That allied to the fact that he appears to be reluctant (for whatever reason) to sign the new contract offered makes him for me the most dispensable asset of the above four.

The perceived lack of development, whether that be offensively or defensively in my eyes; whilst still bearing in mind his "potential" means that after 3 years we are still hoping that "potential" will come through.

Ultimately with Scott moving back into the centre next season, and another CDM rumoured to be on the agenda, what does choice does not make HNM; 4th or 5th at the very least. How many minutes will be actually get on the pitch? A bit like Wells last season.

It all feels very similar to the COD situation of 3 years ago. We give a new contract to a player, who hasn't really done that much, but has "potential". Thinking of course that other clubs are going to be interested in buying him/he develops in such a way as to make the new contract a real investment.

There are of course no guarantees with any player, and I will put my hand up over Semenyeo (I must have criticised him so much to @GrahamC over the years. But for me HNM is a fringe player now, and as such our contract offer to him probably reflects that.

[TonyTonyTony]

24 minutes ago, NcnsBcfc said:

 

Ultimately with Scott moving back into the centre next season, and another CDM rumoured to be on the agenda, what does choice does not make HNM; 4th or 5th at the very least. How many minutes will be actually get on the pitch? A bit like Wells last season.

It all feels very similar to the COD situation of 3 years ago. We give a new contract to a player, who hasn't really done that much, but has "potential". Thinking of course that other clubs are going to be interested in buying him/he develops in such a way as to make the new contract a real investment.

There are of course no guarantees with any player, and I will put my hand up over Semenyeo (I must have criticised him so much to @GrahamC over the years. But for me HNM is a fringe player now, and as such our contract offer to him probably reflects that.

You do realise it's a squad game now? You have multiple players per position. To suggest HNM is a fringe player is a bit odd. If he stays, which is unlikely, he would of course play games.

I for one understand the club needs the money, but id love to watch HNM develop at AG. I think he is the real deal

Edited June 21, 2022 by TonyTonyTony

[Davefevs]

43 minutes ago, NcnsBcfc said:

@Davefevs

Dave, although you and I disagree on HNM, I actually have no problem on him staying per se.

The issue is that we probably need to sell one of our 4 most sellable assets (Weimann, HNM, Scott & Semenyeo) in order to probably allay any potential FFP considerations allied to an upgrade of a squad that has struggled in the last two seasons.

That allied to the fact that he appears to be reluctant (for whatever reason) to sign the new contract offered makes him for me the most dispensable asset of the above four.

The perceived lack of development, whether that be offensively or defensively in my eyes; whilst still bearing in mind his "potential" means that after 3 years we are still hoping that "potential" will come through.

Ultimately with Scott moving back into the centre next season, and another CDM rumoured to be on the agenda, what does choice does not make HNM; 4th or 5th at the very least. How many minutes will be actually get on the pitch? A bit like Wells last season.

It all feels very similar to the COD situation of 3 years ago. We give a new contract to a player, who hasn't really done that much, but has "potential". Thinking of course that other clubs are going to be interested in buying him/he develops in such a way as to make the new contract a real investment.

There are of course no guarantees with any player, and I will put my hand up over Semenyeo (I must have criticised him so much to @GrahamC over the years. But for me HNM is a fringe player now, and as such our contract offer to him probably reflects that.

It’s looking as if Palmer is moving on today, saving us £x, we’ve moved O’Dowda on, saving us £y.  Cundy, nominal budget likely to be saved, but Moore, Bakinson and Vyner all candidates to move on, saving more than rotting away the budget.

I think there is financial scope to keep Han.

And we haven’t needed to talk about Kalas or Wells leaving yet.  I believe the financial situation is “in hand”, and there wouldn’t be a contract offer on the table if we didn’t think it was viable.

So, I think we can “sort of” ignore the finances, Gould appears to be well on top of things.  So it’s really about him on the pitch.

We are probably gonna have to disagree about who is x choice, y choice (best eleven type stuff) as you know I don’t feel it works like that per se, especially as each midfielder brings different things to the piece.  With Nige I feel he wants competition for places to raise standards, and we also know players get injured, suspended, fall into and out of form too.

Against a central midfield 6 of James, Williams, King, Palmer, Massengo, and Scott at the start of last season, many thought he was 4th / 5th / even 6th choice then.  Han played 2647 mins (30 games worth), only James 2785 (31) and Scott 2833 (32) played more minutes.  Nobody else hit 1300 minutes.  Many of Scott’s minutes were at RWB.

If you prescribe to a view that you have a best eleven and everyone else is fringe, you end up with no squad.  Han is a bonafide match day 18 member. Bar the opening game last season and a few he missed through injury he made every squad, only 3 times post injury was he an unused sub.  I wouldn’t categorise that as fringe myself, albeit accept this can be a lingo thing.

Also, It feels nothing like to O’Dowda situation to me!

But, good debate, from both sides of the argument.

[NcnsBcfc]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

It’s looking as if Palmer is moving on today, saving us £x, we’ve moved O’Dowda on, saving us £y.  Cundy, nominal budget likely to be saved, but Moore, Bakinson and Vyner all candidates to move on, saving more than rotting away the budget.

I think there is financial scope to keep Han.

And we haven’t needed to talk about Kalas or Wells leaving yet.  I believe the financial situation is “in hand”, and there wouldn’t be a contract offer on the table if we didn’t think it was viable.

So, I think we can “sort of” ignore the finances, Gould appears to be well on top of things.  So it’s really about him on the pitch.

We are probably gonna have to disagree about who is x choice, y choice (best eleven type stuff) as you know I don’t feel it works like that per se, especially as each midfielder brings different things to the piece.  With Nige I feel he wants competition for places to raise standards, and we also know players get injured, suspended, fall into and out of form too.

Against a central midfield 6 of James, Williams, King, Palmer, Massengo, and Scott at the start of last season, many thought he was 4th / 5th / even 6th choice then.  Han played 2647 mins (30 games worth), only James 2785 (31) and Scott 2833 (32) played more minutes.  Nobody else hit 1300 minutes.  Many of Scott’s minutes were at RWB.

If you prescribe to a view that you have a best eleven and everyone else is fringe, you end up with no squad.  Han is a bonafide match day 18 member. Bar the opening game last season and a few he missed through injury he made every squad, only 3 times post injury was he an unused sub.  I wouldn’t categorise that as fringe myself, albeit accept this can be a lingo thing.

Also, It feels nothing like to O’Dowda situation to me!

But, good debate, from both sides of the argument.

Indeed, can you imagine the scenes at AG if/when HNM scores a goal?

It would be like the Arsenal John Jensen celebrations. Followed by countless t-shirts saying "I was there, when Massengo scored"