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Football Analysis: Are We Pacesetters?


handsofclay

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Just read Football Hackers by Christoph Biermann about the revolution in football statistics and analysis. It really seems to have become an industry and pretty well everything seems to be analysed these days including the personalities of players and the right mix of characteristics in a team to achieve the optimum result.

I found the chapter on 'packing' particularly interesting, not only did it include the contributions of our ex player Jens Hegeler in this field it also explained why 'packing’ statistics (completed passes that cut out players) is far more reliable as a statistic as teams with the highest packing stat in a match win far, far more often than those with the best passing or possession stats. (Obviously the best stat to determine which side is most likely to win is goals scored!)

It was an eye opener as to how many statistics are used and the variety of different facets this analysis covers with some clubs funding stat companies.

I suppose this one is more for our own Davefevs, but does anyone know where City stand as a club in the scheme of things? Are we stat and analytics sceptics or do we fully endorse this new approach to gaining an advantage. Plus where do we stand in relation to other Championship clubs in the use of this. I would imagine under LJ we were embracing this with open arms.

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12 minutes ago, handsofclay said:

Just read Football Hackers by Christoph Biermann about the revolution in football statistics and analysis. It really seems to have become an industry and pretty well everything seems to be analysed these days including the personalities of players and the right mix of characteristics in a team to achieve the optimum result.

I found the chapter on 'packing' particularly interesting, not only did it include the contributions of our ex player Jens Hegeler in this field it also explained why 'packing’ statistics (completed passes that cut out players) is far more reliable as a statistic as teams with the highest packing stat in a match win far, far more often than those with the best passing or possession stats. (Obviously the best stat to determine which side is most likely to win is goals scored!)

It was an eye opener as to how many statistics are used and the variety of different facets this analysis covers with some clubs funding stat companies.

I suppose this one is more for our own Davefevs, but does anyone know where City stand as a club in the scheme of things? Are we stat and analytics sceptics or do we fully endorse this new approach to gaining an advantage. Plus where do we stand in relation to other Championship clubs in the use of this. I would imagine under LJ we were embracing this with open arms.

Probably, but we didn't manage the "packing" bit.

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Well I’ve seen the salary for a data analyst at City and it is disgustingly below market average (which, in a sort of defence, seems to be common in football), so I’d be surprised if we had anyone notable working for us.

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The quality of the analysts is obviously important but I always found that the quality of the requirement specified by the client was critical.

Do they have a clear idea of what they need? Can they express it in quantifiable terms? Do they have realistic expectations of how analysis can aid their decision making or do they expect the analyst to give them a magic tool that will make the decisions for them? And so on.

Nigel strikes me as someone who has clarity of thought so would make good use of (good) analytics.

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1 hour ago, handsofclay said:

Just read Football Hackers by Christoph Biermann about the revolution in football statistics and analysis. It really seems to have become an industry and pretty well everything seems to be analysed these days including the personalities of players and the right mix of characteristics in a team to achieve the optimum result.

I found the chapter on 'packing' particularly interesting, not only did it include the contributions of our ex player Jens Hegeler in this field it also explained why 'packing’ statistics (completed passes that cut out players) is far more reliable as a statistic as teams with the highest packing stat in a match win far, far more often than those with the best passing or possession stats. (Obviously the best stat to determine which side is most likely to win is goals scored!)

It was an eye opener as to how many statistics are used and the variety of different facets this analysis covers with some clubs funding stat companies.

I suppose this one is more for our own Davefevs, but does anyone know where City stand as a club in the scheme of things? Are we stat and analytics sceptics or do we fully endorse this new approach to gaining an advantage. Plus where do we stand in relation to other Championship clubs in the use of this. I would imagine under LJ we were embracing this with open arms.

In terms of personalities, yeah its a massive part of recruitment including getting references from people the player has played with or a coach they've worked with to make sure they're a good fit. 

I'm not a fan of packing, it can't do anything to help plan/predict for the next match its 100% a reflective tool based on previous performance, essentially Hegeler and the guy he did it with felt they didn't get enough credit for what they did in games so developed a metric that they felt highlighted what they did and put them in a better light. But because it can't be used pre-match was a reason why City and a lot of clubs won't bother with it. Essentially it tells you breaking lines with passes is helpful with winning games.... wow shocker, but will fail to incorporate and recognise so many tactical elements.

City will have almost every tool available at their disposal, its just a matter of how many the coaching staff at a club embrace it and how good the analysts/coaching staff (whoever's using it) are at taking the relevant information from it to present to the group as it can be a flood of information and a lot of it just noise. City will be no different to most clubs with the amount of data providers they use as most clubs in the division will be signed up to one or two major providers.

 

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37 minutes ago, chinapig said:

The quality of the analysts is obviously important but I always found that the quality of the requirement specified by the client was critical.

Do they have a clear idea of what they need? Can they express it in quantifiable terms? Do they have realistic expectations of how analysis can aid their decision making or do they expect the analyst to give them a magic tool that will make the decisions for them? And so on.

Nigel strikes me as someone who has clarity of thought so would make good use of (good) analytics.

Yep, only as good as the “requirements / needs”….and as you say I suspect Nige is very clear.

33 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

In terms of personalities, yeah its a massive part of recruitment including getting references from people the player has played with or a coach they've worked with to make sure they're a good fit. 

I'm not a fan of packing, it can't do anything to help plan/predict for the next match its 100% a reflective tool based on previous performance, essentially Hegeler and the guy he did it with felt they didn't get enough credit for what they did in games so developed a metric that they felt highlighted what they did and put them in a better light. But because it can't be used pre-match was a reason why City and a lot of clubs won't bother with it. Essentially it tells you breaking lines with passes is helpful with winning games.... wow shocker, but will fail to incorporate and recognise so many tactical elements.

City will have almost every tool available at their disposal, its just a matter of how many the coaching staff at a club embrace it and how good the analysts/coaching staff (whoever's using it) are at taking the relevant information from it to present to the group as it can be a flood of information and a lot of it just noise. City will be no different to most clubs with the amount of data providers they use as most clubs in the division will be signed up to one or two major providers.

 

There was a good article (Statsbomb I think) as to how the concept of packing was analysed and it’s flaws spitted, but some of its basics were used to help the foundation of Expected Threat and xG Chain…I.e. what “score” do the passes before the goal / chance get.

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19 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Yep, only as good as the “requirements / needs”….and as you say I suspect Nige is very clear.

 

I think back to LJ and his talk of the 3” deep dossiers he had to read through in the next opponents and another in our performance for the game just played.

Its a matter of opinion but I don’t think that amount of information (In the context of a football match) can be good , particularly in terms of clarity.

i may be wrong , but I bet NP doesn’t want a 3” deep dossier landing on his desk on any subject.

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10 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

I think back to LJ and his talk of the 3” deep dossiers he had to read through in the next opponents and another in our performance for the game just played.

Its a matter of opinion but I don’t think that amount of information (In the context of a football match) can be good , particularly in terms of clarity.

i may be wrong , but I bet NP doesn’t want a 3” deep dossier landing on his desk on any subject.

I mean its very obviously an exaggeration that they were 3' deep, but its very easy for reports to be minimum of 20-30 pages or more dependant on how much information is on each page, could be a different set-piece routine is on each page etc 

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2 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

I mean its very obviously an exaggeration that they were 3' deep, but its very easy for reports to be minimum of 20-30 pages or more dependant on how much information is on each page, could be a different set-piece routine is on each page etc 

I’m only going by what he stated publicly lrrrr - I obviously hadn’t seen them and you would obviously have a very accurate knowledge ? 

There’s a balance (IMHO) as to how much information is useful, and at what point it creates a fog

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Thank you all for your replies and especially Lrrr for his insights. It has given me food for thought.

It has made me think about the futility of the packing stats for as you say it is something that only comes to light after a game. Obviously, it is something that teams, judging by the stats for packing, should strive for, but as you intimate it's the sort of thing everyone in a game worth their salt endeavours to do. Even in the walking football I play if given the option of a straightforward pass alongside to a colleague or a pass that splits the defence and cuts out five opponents I choose the latter as it scores magnificently on the bragging stakes. 

As Sheltons Army alludes to, it's interesting to guage how much analysis is used. It almost feels like a scientist with no football brain at all could produce a successful team just by implementing the masses of statistics available in the right way along with consultations with the coaches and fitness staff. But, in an ever increasing era dependent upon analysis, what about individuals such as Cloughie etc who simply have a nose for management and can assess situations and make the right call or approach and overcome a problem by using processes totally out of the box. It's fascinating and I would like to think that although it seems approaches to the game will become increasingly scientific that there will still be a role for the maverick to play in our beautiful game.

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4 hours ago, Sheltons Army said:

There’s a balance (IMHO) as to how much information is useful, and at what point it creates a fog

That’s down to mental capacity and the ability to interpret data. Most big business decisions (should) have lots of data driving them.

If you get fogged you are in the wrong role.

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10 minutes ago, handsofclay said:

Thank you all for your replies and especially Lrrr for his insights. It has given me food for thought.

It has made me think about the futility of the packing stats for as you say it is something that only comes to light after a game. Obviously, it is something that teams, judging by the stats for packing, should strive for, but as you intimate it's the sort of thing everyone in a game worth their salt endeavours to do. Even in the walking football I play if given the option of a straightforward pass alongside to a colleague or a pass that splits the defence and cuts out five opponents I choose the latter as it scores magnificently on the bragging stakes. 

As Sheltons Army alludes to, it's interesting to guage how much analysis is used. It almost feels like a scientist with no football brain at all could produce a successful team just by implementing the masses of statistics available in the right way along with consultations with the coaches and fitness staff. But, in an ever increasing era dependent upon analysis, what about individuals such as Cloughie etc who simply have a nose for management and can assess situations and make the right call or approach and overcome a problem by using processes totally out of the box. It's fascinating and I would like to think that although it seems approaches to the game will become increasingly scientific that there will still be a role for the maverick to play in our beautiful game.

The role of an analyst is more to supplement the knowledge of the manager/coaches to aid their decision making rather than making decisions for coaches. They still make the calls its just a case in the game now there's just too much going on to cover everything between a manager and assistant so they need the noise filtered out to get to the core messages that they want to implement. A good work relationship between a manager/coaches and analyst helps that filtering process so much because the analysts will know what the coach will be thinking for in a way and working from their direction. As alluded to earlier I imagine Nigel is good at this. 

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48 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

The role of an analyst is more to supplement the knowledge of the manager/coaches to aid their decision making rather than making decisions for coaches. They still make the calls its just a case in the game now there's just too much going on to cover everything between a manager and assistant so they need the noise filtered out to get to the core messages that they want to implement. A good work relationship between a manager/coaches and analyst helps that filtering process so much because the analysts will know what the coach will be thinking for in a way and working from their direction. As alluded to earlier I imagine Nigel is good at this. 

True of analysts/analysis in many fields: they/it can be a brilliant compliment to augment and enhance existing decision making, at times being a significant force multiplier.

But if solid data analysis doesn’t marry with more traditional means of assessment, it can just end up numbers.

I sometimes wonder how analytics worked in terms of player recruitment under our prior regime, as some of the signings whiffed of ‘stat solo’ decision making, with someone fitting a lot of criteria when you ran the numbers, but who simply didn’t show the required skills on tape. 

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33 minutes ago, samo II said:

True of analysts/analysis in many fields: they/it can be a brilliant compliment to augment and enhance existing decision making, at times being a significant force multiplier.

But if solid data analysis doesn’t marry with more traditional means of assessment, it can just end up numbers.

I sometimes wonder how analytics worked in terms of player recruitment under our prior regime, as some of the signings whiffed of ‘stat solo’ decision making, with someone fitting a lot of criteria when you ran the numbers, but who simply didn’t show the required skills on tape. 

I went to the first fans forum with MA & LJ where they did a long presentation about their use of data , particularly in recruitment 

I asked MA specifically whether this was following a similar line to Moneyball and in some part to Brentford’s recruitment

He stated it’s was nothing like Moneyball or similar to Brentford’s way , which I have to say I found strange , and starting to think I misunderstood the basic concepts of both Moneyball &  Brentfords use of analytics , I left it

Its ironic that it does appear , in retrospect , that a lot of our recruitment was done majorly off the back of performance stats 

 

* I have to say I have absolutely no problem with the use of performance stats to ‘flag up’ Players that may otherwise escape our radar. it’s just for me, personally , that’s where the process should begin with plenty of eyes on , including from coaching staff and head coach / manager at some point 

I made the point , on a previous post , that however basic an example , that I did have a dabble at Fifa and two youngsters I ‘bought’ purely on their basic FIFA stats at young age was 

Mendy ,  and Alvarez (who’s just joined Man City)

 

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1 hour ago, Sheltons Army said:

I went to the first fans forum with MA & LJ where they did a long presentation about their use of data , particularly in recruitment 

I asked MA specifically whether this was following a similar line to Moneyball and in some part to Brentford’s recruitment

He stated it’s was nothing like Moneyball or similar to Brentford’s way , which I have to say I found strange , and starting to think I misunderstood the basic concepts of both Moneyball &  Brentfords use of analytics , I left it

Its ironic that it does appear , in retrospect , that a lot of our recruitment was done majorly off the back of performance stats 

 

* I have to say I have absolutely no problem with the use of performance stats to ‘flag up’ Players that may otherwise escape our radar. it’s just for me, personally , that’s where the process should begin with plenty of eyes on , including from coaching staff and head coach / manager at some point 

I made the point , on a previous post , that however basic an example , that I did have a dabble at Fifa and two youngsters I ‘bought’ purely on their basic FIFA stats at young age was 

Mendy ,  and Alvarez (who’s just joined Man City)

 

It’s worth reading the book Moneyball (rather than watching the film) to get a better appreciation of what was going on with baseball data science (saber-metrics).

Brentford’s moneyball is a bit misleading as they have a vast scouting network, but backed up my data, not led by data.  Frank is a great advocate of using eyes.  He says he only uses data to back up what he sees with his eyes.

Moneyball the book was quite interesting as it used data to poo-Pooh conventional scouting, where scouting bias meant certain players were missed because of physical reasons.  It also found a link between less traditional stats like how often a batter got to 1st base as being a better guide than how many runs and hits a player ultimately got.

There is quite a bit of focus on two players, one of them a fat player who scouts kept overlooking, and a pitcher who pitched “underarm”.  Their data in the minor leagues said they should be great…and they proved to be when signed by the major league team owned by Billy Beane (Brad Pitt).

But baseball isn’t football, not every event starts with a pitcher stood on a fairly fixed point to a batter stood on a fairly fixed point.  It’s too fluid, it has too much context in what is going on around it, what other players are doing.

But you don’t need data / pics to tell you Alex Scott played well the other night, do you!  But it is good for checking, re-checking.  It is good for saving time going to watch players who aren’t worth scouting several times.  Was the scout’s report one where the player played out of his skin on a one-off basis.  Data can help you there.

207E8973-727D-4ADF-8468-E6BB62C33163.jpeg.8ddd4229811b73b60bffc71c22559c9f.jpeg77931110-91D2-41FF-B66C-EED8C6EC7365.jpeg.13f887e51a08e606c4cb177433731254.jpeg89B74C47-0BF8-4B19-BE61-EA3397A588C4.jpeg.770129b4aadf2359b5c744f359fc4b4e.jpeg

Its being used more and more, and undoubtedly it’s being used in a more sophisticated way.  Back to LJ, he wanted to know where the top sides crossed from in 18/19.  Here’s how data helped.  Look at those cut-back zones for Norwich and Leeds!  Sheffield Utd slinging crosses in from everywhere.

image.thumb.jpeg.618721d54de19f150a02e610bc431bd9.jpeg

 

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2 hours ago, Sheltons Army said:

I went to the first fans forum with MA & LJ where they did a long presentation about their use of data , particularly in recruitment 

I asked MA specifically whether this was following a similar line to Moneyball and in some part to Brentford’s recruitment

He stated it’s was nothing like Moneyball or similar to Brentford’s way , which I have to say I found strange , and starting to think I misunderstood the basic concepts of both Moneyball &  Brentfords use of analytics , I left it

I mean to me that’s just Mark Ashton ‘look what MY department has come up with’

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14 hours ago, Sheltons Army said:

I went to the first fans forum with MA & LJ where they did a long presentation about their use of data , particularly in recruitment 

I asked MA specifically whether this was following a similar line to Moneyball and in some part to Brentford’s recruitment

He stated it’s was nothing like Moneyball or similar to Brentford’s way , which I have to say I found strange , and starting to think I misunderstood the basic concepts of both Moneyball &  Brentfords use of analytics , I left it

Its ironic that it does appear , in retrospect , that a lot of our recruitment was done majorly off the back of performance stats 

 

* I have to say I have absolutely no problem with the use of performance stats to ‘flag up’ Players that may otherwise escape our radar. it’s just for me, personally , that’s where the process should begin with plenty of eyes on , including from coaching staff and head coach / manager at some point 

I made the point , on a previous post , that however basic an example , that I did have a dabble at Fifa and two youngsters I ‘bought’ purely on their basic FIFA stats at young age was 

Mendy ,  and Alvarez (who’s just joined Man City)

 

There is absolutely a benefit to using data for understanding where a player has some ‘hidden’ ability not showing in more obvious stats or in observable performance - this is one area where you see some other sports, a lot of the US ones especially because of the way their salary rules work - they have to get value from players; the wage structures prohibit them just doing a Man City and buying five players for every position (I know that’s not entirely true but you get my point; there is active disparity in football budgets).

However, always seems to be done from a position of “what do we do and what do we need?” so not just looking at data, going “oh he is cheap and the data says he’s undervalued” and signing them regardless of your playing style/existing squad.

I suspect that under Ashton we maybe got a little cocky, thinking we could take any undervalued player, bring them in and just find a way of playing them - at one point we had a ridiculous number of central midfielders and felt it kind of had a whiff of that ‘buy every bargain’ approach.

Nothing wrong with using data to help guide you to a better value/hidden gem player for a position you need - and the odd speculative gamble can work too - but if you end up with too many bodies in one position, can be more detrimental than positive.

13 hours ago, Davefevs said:

It’s worth reading the book Moneyball (rather than watching the film) to get a better appreciation of what was going on with baseball data science (saber-metrics).

Brentford’s moneyball is a bit misleading as they have a vast scouting network, but backed up my data, not led by data.  Frank is a great advocate of using eyes.  He says he only uses data to back up what he sees with his eyes.

Moneyball the book was quite interesting as it used data to poo-Pooh conventional scouting, where scouting bias meant certain players were missed because of physical reasons.  It also found a link between less traditional stats like how often a batter got to 1st base as being a better guide than how many runs and hits a player ultimately got.

There is quite a bit of focus on two players, one of them a fat player who scouts kept overlooking, and a pitcher who pitched “underarm”.  Their data in the minor leagues said they should be great…and they proved to be when signed by the major league team owned by Billy Beane (Brad Pitt).

But baseball isn’t football, not every event starts with a pitcher stood on a fairly fixed point to a batter stood on a fairly fixed point.  It’s too fluid, it has too much context in what is going on around it, what other players are doing.

But you don’t need data / pics to tell you Alex Scott played well the other night, do you!  But it is good for checking, re-checking.  It is good for saving time going to watch players who aren’t worth scouting several times.  Was the scout’s report one where the player played out of his skin on a one-off basis.  Data can help you there.

207E8973-727D-4ADF-8468-E6BB62C33163.jpeg.8ddd4229811b73b60bffc71c22559c9f.jpeg77931110-91D2-41FF-B66C-EED8C6EC7365.jpeg.13f887e51a08e606c4cb177433731254.jpeg89B74C47-0BF8-4B19-BE61-EA3397A588C4.jpeg.770129b4aadf2359b5c744f359fc4b4e.jpeg

Its being used more and more, and undoubtedly it’s being used in a more sophisticated way.  Back to LJ, he wanted to know where the top sides crossed from in 18/19.  Here’s how data helped.  Look at those cut-back zones for Norwich and Leeds!  Sheffield Utd slinging crosses in from everywhere.

image.thumb.jpeg.618721d54de19f150a02e610bc431bd9.jpeg

 

The term ‘Moneyball’ gets thrown around all the time, and like in Brentford’s case, it rarely conforms to the what is actually the method.

I’d suggest even the most ‘old school’ seeming managers and clubs use some form of analysis now; Big Sam championed it at Bolton, and think that shows where a clever combination of using data and more traditional approaches can really maximise a team’s budget (albeit they got somewhat wild with it at the end of their top flight run).

I’m intrigued to see how Brentford manage in the Prem over a sustained period. The nature of modern football really doesn’t allow for teams without incredibly deep pockets to compete at the very top, but be nice to see someone challenge that.

I take some comfort/hope (the thing that kills you, I know…) that NP was in part responsible for the Leicester team that did (somehow) manage to break that lock on the premier league despite not having a national wealth fund or similar behind them. My person ambitions are a lot less lofty (just avoid a season long relegation fight) but makes me a little hopeful we can get the most from what we have.

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The impression I get from Nige is that although he isn’t data-hungry himself he will 1) allow those that are to bring that element to the debate, e.g. Rennie and 2) he will look at data for specific reasons, e.g. Joe Williams points per game.  Just subtle stuff like knowing how many games a player has made or availability of another, he’s usually spot on.

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Personally the only stats worth anything are the ones on the scoreboard and everything else is just utter tosh and I’ll state my reasons why:-

Footballers are humans, not machines and therefore are prone to loss in confidence, illness, other issues such as whether they get on with certain players in a team or the manager.

What about other player’s trust? They might not fancy passing to someone too much who might be a liability?

Regardless of however many blades of grass a players covers if you don’t score goals the stats are worthless.

Brian Clough had it right. Get in players heads, let them relax and rest at times, tell them that they are better players than they are, keep it simple.

Football is such a simple game, score more goals than the opposition, but start from having a solid defence. Aim to keep the ball in the opposition’s half.

The rest of the things you need you can see with a good eye.

Stats just waste hours of someone’s life that they will never get back to produce pictures that are confusing to those trying to get any meaning from it….plus it ain’t winning you any more matches!

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27 minutes ago, Gert Mare said:

Personally the only stats worth anything are the ones on the scoreboard and everything else is just utter tosh and I’ll state my reasons why:-

Footballers are humans, not machines and therefore are prone to loss in confidence, illness, other issues such as whether they get on with certain players in a team or the manager.

What about other player’s trust? They might not fancy passing to someone too much who might be a liability?

Regardless of however many blades of grass a players covers if you don’t score goals the stats are worthless.

Brian Clough had it right. Get in players heads, let them relax and rest at times, tell them that they are better players than they are, keep it simple.

Football is such a simple game, score more goals than the opposition, but start from having a solid defence. Aim to keep the ball in the opposition’s half.

The rest of the things you need you can see with a good eye.

Stats just waste hours of someone’s life that they will never get back to produce pictures that are confusing to those trying to get any meaning from it….plus it ain’t winning you any more matches!

Shall I tell every major club in the world to sack their analysts or will you??

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On 26/06/2022 at 12:54, Marcus Aurelius said:

Well I’ve seen the salary for a data analyst at City and it is disgustingly below market average (which, in a sort of defence, seems to be common in football), so I’d be surprised if we had anyone notable working for us.

I used to work with students studying  students studying Sport Science at a top, local sports university. They would initially set out to want to work in data analytics in football (their degrees had a strong focus on mathematics and stats), and would quickly realise they could work in a myriad of other sectors for 2 or 3 times the salary being offered by even the top teams in the country. Only the football obsessives or lower-achieving students would still want to pursue a role in the industry afterwards. 

 

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1 minute ago, underhanded said:

I used to work with students studying  students studying Sport Science at a top, local sports university. They would initially set out to want to work in data analytics in football (their degrees had a strong focus on mathematics and stats), and would quickly realise they could work in a myriad of other sectors for 2 or 3 times the salary being offered by even the top teams in the country. Only the football obsessives or lower-achieving students would still want to pursue a role in the industry afterwards. 

 

I can’t speak for the Sports Science degrees but re Computer/Data Science, it seems the exact same situation. 

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1 hour ago, Gert Mare said:

Personally the only stats worth anything are the ones on the scoreboard and everything else is just utter tosh and I’ll state my reasons why:-

Footballers are humans, not machines and therefore are prone to loss in confidence, illness, other issues such as whether they get on with certain players in a team or the manager.

What about other player’s trust? They might not fancy passing to someone too much who might be a liability?

Regardless of however many blades of grass a players covers if you don’t score goals the stats are worthless.

Brian Clough had it right. Get in players heads, let them relax and rest at times, tell them that they are better players than they are, keep it simple.

Football is such a simple game, score more goals than the opposition, but start from having a solid defence. Aim to keep the ball in the opposition’s half.

The rest of the things you need you can see with a good eye.

Stats just waste hours of someone’s life that they will never get back to produce pictures that are confusing to those trying to get any meaning from it….plus it ain’t winning you any more matches!

I suspect lee johnson went too far the other way with stats, and didnt have the man management part of the game to back up his love of stats and analysis, but these days, with the level of wages, and social media etc etc, its easy to see why pro clubs use any means necessary to help identify players etc etc…. How we have got it so badly wrong with most of our signings over the last few years i dont know, but i guess we have had people in positions who decide on our signings who have just been pathetic at their jobs!

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2 hours ago, Simon bristol said:

I suspect lee johnson went too far the other way with stats, and didnt have the man management part of the game to back up his love of stats and analysis, but these days, with the level of wages, and social media etc etc, its easy to see why pro clubs use any means necessary to help identify players etc etc…. How we have got it so badly wrong with most of our signings over the last few years i dont know, but i guess we have had people in positions who decide on our signings who have just been pathetic at their jobs!

Lee Johnson went way too far with the theory and bamboozled players (and the supporters).

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Just now, Gert Mare said:

I’m happy to do it.

A good old fashioned scouting network will trump data analysis any day of the week.

 

You do realise that clubs do still scout players as well? Especially a club like Brentford who people seem to think rely solely on data.

Jurgen Klopp speaks highly of Liverpool's recruitment analysts as it happens but I'll get on to him to let him know he's wrong.

Now, where did I put his phone number??

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Just now, chinapig said:

You do realise that clubs do still scout players as well? Especially a club like Brentford who people seem to think rely solely on data.

Jurgen Klopp speaks highly of Liverpool's recruitment analysts as it happens but I'll get on to him to let him know he's wrong.

Now, where did I put his phone number??

Yep. It’s just that data doesn’t really work well where humans are concerned.

I bet the data showed that Nahki Wells would score every couple of games before he joined City? That stat soon went out of the window.

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13 minutes ago, Gert Mare said:

Yep. It’s just that data doesn’t really work well where humans are concerned.

I bet the data showed that Nahki Wells would score every couple of games before he joined City? That stat soon went out of the window.

It didn't show anything of the sort. Even the simplest freely available data showed that he was going through a purple patch that was unlikely to continue and was largely happening because of the way QPR's midfield operated behind him.

But the humans thought he'd be brilliant so here he came.

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16 minutes ago, Gert Mare said:

Yep. It’s just that data doesn’t really work well where humans are concerned.

I bet the data showed that Nahki Wells would score every couple of games before he joined City? That stat soon went out of the window.

I’m not going to argue that data analytics will ‘trump’ traditional scouting methods because they assess different things; you combine them to gain an advantage, you don’t ignore one completely.

3 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

It didn't show anything of the sort. Even the simplest freely available data showed that he was going through a purple patch that was unlikely to continue and was largely happening because of the way QPR's midfield operated behind him.

But the humans thought he'd be brilliant so here he came.

Exactly. Plenty of examples of players brought in based off pure, ‘gut’ decisions/passing the ‘eye test’ who turned out to be crap. Analytics is a wholistic approach, not just looking at the scoresheet and saying “he scores a lot; let’s get him” or you end up with a square peg in a round hole not because you didn’t study them or their successful situation property  - just like with Wells.

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