Nigel Pearson will be on Sounds of the City Monday 25th July

[RedRoss]

Does it all matter. He'll be leaving next summer and Nigel doesn't seem to want to start players who have their future elsewhere unless he has to. I like the fact he's stubborn with this as he's trying to build a core team who are built into the project. That's why he's not a fan of loans (not to say we won't) but again only out of necessity.

[PHILINFRANCE]

1 hour ago, billywedlock said:

Han came for development, to grow in the game. He has developed, but is not a regular first team starter, he rarely has a successive game starting. I think the club frustration is to an extent that they cannot gain any financial positive, but that they do not know what the player wants. I don't think the player knows what he wants. You want to develop another level ? Well getting into the first team at City , that will put you on a stage. Sign a contract, get an exit clause, even a relatively modest one, it can be done. Need to go back to France ? Find a club , but there is no one, and we are hardly going to give him a free transfer.  If Han wants a big move, the very best stage is getting into the City first team this year and playing 30 plus games. But the club is not going to let you do that when the only financial beneficiary is the young player. Han needs to either find a club that will pay a fee ( I suggest not even a huge one, to cover a compensation fee plus or at least the remaining transfer fee value) , with a big sell on clause in the next weeks , or sign a new 3 year contract with a release clause at a decent level. He must be focused on football right now, just winning a first team spot. That is all a 21 year old should be thinking about.  The cost of him not playing this year will be huge in terms of his future development. Unless there are big family reasons involved, and none of us know this, then for footballing reasons, Han should sign a new contract, and set out this season to force himself into a regular first team starter. His agent/dad needs to be to advising him well, and not having a confused 21 year old on your hands. He is confused, as we saw last season on the pitch, and the comments from Nige. 

Obviously, I have no idea, but I suspect this may be part of the issue.

As has been mentioned on several occasions, Han-Noah came here as a teenager, acompanied by his father and several younger sisters. It may well be that they (his sisters) have decided they wish to return to France, either to complete their education, to start work or even because they are homesick.

H-NM comes across as a lovely young man, but, if this is the case, he may not be comfortably stay on for another, say, two or three years, living the life of a bachelor without the support and comfort of his family. 

1 hour ago, BTRFTG said:

Haven't listened to the interview but if the suggestion is Nige views HNM as only a 'squad player' on the basis his contract expires at the end of the season, then that's disgraceful. HNM, like all players, should be given the opportunity to show what they can do. Just because the likes of CoD, KP & TBFK gave up long before exiting doesn't imply HNM would act similarly. If anything, the kid has always put a shift in when given the chance.

I have racked my brains, but I am completely stumped.

[BTRFTG]

6 minutes ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

I have racked my brains, but I am completely stumped.

The Bloke From Knowle, who went on leave at Xmas and seemingly never returned.

[Selred]

He plays best in a midfield 3 in my opinion. Put him in a possession based team and he'd do well. He can make games tick along nicely, good passer, very calm. We probably weren't the right team for him. Formation wise, style wise.

Cannot blame him for wanting to leave for multiple reasons; go to a better suited club for his progression, more game time, potentially back to his home country.

[KegCity]

I think he plays his best football as a box to box midfielder. After Scott, he's our best player at moving the ball quickly up the pitch. He drives at defenders, plays the ball forward and continues to move forward. James and Williams are often too static and look to retain the ball before trying to move it forward. There are pros and cons to both, HNM loses the ball more than others because he takes more risks. I think he suits a counterattacking side as he can generate a quicker tempo than James or Williams. The other side of the coin is that he isn't an amazing defender and that has and will cost us.

When he inevitably leaves, we need a player with his qualities in the squad. I felt we were very laboured at times in midfield with James and Williams together as they just seem to slow the tempo right down when both are on the pitch. I'd much rather have one of them partner a more dynamic player (Scott?) who they then mop up behind.

Trying to take all bias out of it, it's a huge gamble to try and get into another squad somewhere else when he's been developing well here and may find himself starting games if/when Williams breaks down.

[brad blit]

1 hour ago, Shuffle said:

@DavefevsThey are all in the last year but the only difference surely is that HNMs offer has been made public.  Do you honestly believe that discussions offers haven’t been made to those we want to keep as I don’t. If for some bizarre reasons we haven’t made offers or in positive discussions why wouldn’t we look to get a return from a fee just like we are with HNM.  If we wait to Jan window then value of potential sale reduces.

Im just playing devils advocate as we have to try and get a fee now for HNM but the only difference is that his offer is public domain.  

I know we are in discussions for one player who is OOC next summer and been told, "talks going well"

[HappyClapper]

I don’t for one second think NP would not play Han if he felt it was in the interests of the team/club. I agree that Han would put in a shift, but there are a few players in front of him and I can see the argument for developing someone who sees their future with the club with minutes from the bench.

Ultimately I see it as all up to Han. When he gets his opportunity (and he will) it is up to him to take it and nail down his place. That will benefit him in the future whether with us or elsewhere.

As for NP saying words to the effect of “ He’s a squad player who will get some minutes “ I would imagine he would say that about many of the players we have. Not meant as disrespect but a pragmatic view of where he sits. He’s not a nailed on starter so I think that’s just Nige being Nige.

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, Shuffle said:

@DavefevsThey are all in the last year but the only difference surely is that HNMs offer has been made public.  Do you honestly believe that discussions offers haven’t been made to those we want to keep as I don’t. If for some bizarre reasons we haven’t made offers or in positive discussions why wouldn’t we look to get a return from a fee just like we are with HNM.  If we wait to Jan window then value of potential sale reduces.

Im just playing devils advocate as we have to try and get a fee now for HNM but the only difference is that his offer is public domain.  

As we both know there is a difference between being “in talks” and having “a contract on the table”….even Mark Ashton was careful when using that terminology.

When we hear Dan Bentley talk around March it was nothing had been discussed at that point.  I agree, I very much expect agent and club to now be talking….but that’s a very different situation to Massengo.  As time progresses we may see more players move into a situation more akin to Han’s, that is contract in the table but not signed.  I hope there won’t be, but the market is different to 3 years ago.

53 minutes ago, KegCity said:

I think he plays his best football as a box to box midfielder. After Scott, he's our best player at moving the ball quickly up the pitch. He drives at defenders, plays the ball forward and continues to move forward. James and Williams are often too static and look to retain the ball before trying to move it forward. There are pros and cons to both, HNM loses the ball more than others because he takes more risks. I think he suits a counterattacking side as he can generate a quicker tempo than James or Williams. The other side of the coin is that he isn't an amazing defender and that has and will cost us.

When he inevitably leaves, we need a player with his qualities in the squad. I felt we were very laboured at times in midfield with James and Williams together as they just seem to slow the tempo right down when both are on the pitch. I'd much rather have one of them partner a more dynamic player (Scott?) who they then mop up behind.

Trying to take all bias out of it, it's a huge gamble to try and get into another squad somewhere else when he's been developing well here and may find himself starting games if/when Williams breaks down.

At Monaco and France age group (first team - small sample, age group - big sample) Han typically played in a diamond, the majority on the left side, the remainder at the attacking tip.

He’s never been a DM (Defensive midfielder nor Deep-lying Midfielder).  I think people have assumed that because of his lack of goals / assists.  That of course is another argument.

When he first came here, post-Pack and with Nagy injured, Brownhill assumed the more defensive role to allow Palmer and Massengo freedom.  We saw how Han relished that freedom to pop balls on and off, drive 10 yards with the ball, etc, etc.  I recall QPR, Derby and Swansea performances in his opening months here as being very good.

Then he bulked up, and got worse.

He overcame that.

Last season we saw him play no10 v QPR (a) where he was a driving force of creativity, games with Scott in a CM2, etc.

He’s not a DM.  I think LJ wanted to make him a version of himself as a deep-lying midfielder, doing neat and tidy stuff.  I don’t think that’s his game.  He has flair, he plays at tempo.

As a fan base we seem to err on the side of criticism for the inconsistent player, taking the bad, rather than perhaps taking the good and the bad as a balance.

Ah well, he might not be here much longer.  I shall be disappointed if that happens.  He’s 21 FFS, his best years are ahead of him.  RG and NP seem to realise this…they just can’t get him to commit - for whatever reason.

[spudski]

16 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

As we both know there is a difference between being “in talks” and having “a contract on the table”….even Mark Ashton was careful when using that terminology.

When we hear Dan Bentley talk around March it was nothing had been discussed at that point.  I agree, I very much expect agent and club to now be talking….but that’s a very different situation to Massengo.  As time progresses we may see more players move into a situation more akin to Han’s, that is contract in the table but not signed.  I hope there won’t be, but the market is different to 3 years ago.

At Monaco and France age group (first team - small sample, age group - big sample) Han typically played in a diamond, the majority on the left side, the remainder at the attacking tip.

He’s never been a DM (Defensive midfielder nor Deep-lying Midfielder).  I think people have assumed that because of his lack of goals / assists.  That of course is another argument.

When he first came here, post-Pack and with Nagy injured, Brownhill assumed the more defensive role to allow Palmer and Massengo freedom.  We saw how Han relished that freedom to pop balls on and off, drive 10 yards with the ball, etc, etc.  I recall QPR, Derby and Swansea performances in his opening months here as being very good.

Then he bulked up, and got worse.

He overcame that.

Last season we saw him play no10 v QPR (a) where he was a driving force of creativity, games with Scott in a CM2, etc.

He’s not a DM.  I think LJ wanted to make him a version of himself as a deep-lying midfielder, doing neat and tidy stuff.  I don’t think that’s his game.  He has flair, he plays at tempo.

As a fan base we seem to err on the side of criticism for the inconsistent player, taking the bad, rather than perhaps taking the good and the bad as a balance.

Ah well, he might not be here much longer.  I shall be disappointed if that happens.  He’s 21 FFS, his best years are ahead of him.  RG and NP seem to realise this…they just can’t get him to commit - for whatever reason.

This is what LJ is quoted as saying about Massengo, his attributes, and how he was going to use him.

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/revealed-bristol-city-signed-han-3178030

 

[BTRFTG]

29 minutes ago, spudski said:

This is what LJ is quoted as saying about Massengo, his attributes, and how he was going to use him.

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/revealed-bristol-city-signed-han-3178030

 

Signed a 'box to box' player then (like the rest of his midfielders) transformed him into a poor man's Ray Wilkins, crab-like sideways and backwards. Ruined the kids career.

[spudski]

4 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

Signed a 'box to box' player then (like the rest of his midfielders) transformed him into a poor man's Ray Wilkins, crab-like sideways and backwards. Ruined the kids career.

I agree...his attributes are a high energy box to box midfielder.

Using him and Weimann as high pressing players when out of possession would have worked imo.

Top of a diamond for me.

[Davefevs]

8 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

Signed a 'box to box' player then (like the rest of his midfielders) transformed him into a poor man's Ray Wilkins, crab-like sideways and backwards. Ruined the kids career.

Thankfully he didn’t stay long enough to complete that transition!

[maxjak]

On 25/07/2022 at 19:55, pongo88 said:

The Massengo situation reminds me of O’Dowda a few years ago. He was convinced Leeds / other clubs wanted him but no offers materialised. Unfortunately, City made the mistake of offering him a new contract and we were stuck with him. Massengo probably thought he would have clubs chasing after him, and be prepared to pay what City want, but it hasn’t turned out that way. NP often mentions the fact that there is a new contract on the table for Massengo, but I hope he tears it up

I believe that if HNM is given opportunities to play, he is strongly motivated, and will impress.  It's possible that come the January window someone might come in for him?  He is young and talented,and it's a shame that he won't sign a contract...........but i don't begrudge him his ambition, and if i was in his shoes (Boots) I would probably do exactly the same. 

[maxjak]

On 25/07/2022 at 20:41, billywedlock said:

You are quite right, in any case there is always a deal to be done if he does want to go home. Any agent that does not want a 21 year playing as much football as possible (and Championship is a great platform) , is giving poor advice. He clearly will be a bit part player now, used only is strictly necessary, as Nige will want to use others, like Kadji , who are in for the future, before Han. His last league appearance got to him, if we recall, suggesting the lad is quite unsettled. He can easily get escape clauses in a new contract , and the uncertainty is not a great place for a 21 year old to be in. In this scenario everyone is a loser. That is ridiculous and makes a mockery of why he left Monaco in the first place. 

Complete conjecture.....you are entitled to your opinion, but i believe you are way off target? I have no idea whatsoever why it is in anyway ridiculous or a mockery?  Let's be honest here, you, like me have absolutely no idea what is going on behind the scenes?  The difference being, I am not making wild unsubstantiated claims?

[maxjak]

On 26/07/2022 at 09:50, GrahamC said:

Massengo’s number actually went down.

For all the talk about HNM.......this rumour, that rumour, and snippets of uninformed information.  The only outcome will be that HNM is in control of his own destiny,  and will end up the winner?

[maxjak]

On 26/07/2022 at 11:40, Bristol Oil Services said:

If Jane Austen was alive today, she'd be writing about this type of domestic carry on (from the - eldest - sisters' perspective, not Han's lack of "goals and assists"), with Mark Ashton as a dashing if misunderstood Mr Darcy perhaps  .... 

Surely Mark Ashton is the deceitful Wickham?

[The Constant Rabbit]

13 hours ago, spudski said:

I agree...his attributes are a high energy box to box midfielder.

Using him and Weimann as high pressing players when out of possession would have worked imo.

Top of a diamond for me.

100%

With Weimann and Martin up front - he would be almost the Semenyo role with quick run / pass to either link with Martin or put through Weimann.

I'd love to be a fly on the wall when NP and CF discuss HNM role - it's so frustrating as there is potentially one hell of a player in there.

 

I can see why HNM is torn between staying and going if this is the case.

 

Surely though @Davefevs @spudski this is exactly the conversation that NP and HNM have to have - "Where do you feel you would play best for Bristol City?"

I suspect it either hasn't happened (which would be very strange as NP seems as straight a shooter as there is) - or it has, and HNM agreed to change his role to help the team.

 

As it stands, it seems to be to the detriment of both parties.

[spudski]

3 hours ago, The Constant Rabbit said:

100%

With Weimann and Martin up front - he would be almost the Semenyo role with quick run / pass to either link with Martin or put through Weimann.

I'd love to be a fly on the wall when NP and CF discuss HNM role - it's so frustrating as there is potentially one hell of a player in there.

 

I can see why HNM is torn between staying and going if this is the case.

 

Surely though @Davefevs @spudski this is exactly the conversation that NP and HNM have to have - "Where do you feel you would play best for Bristol City?"

I suspect it either hasn't happened (which would be very strange as NP seems as straight a shooter as there is) - or it has, and HNM agreed to change his role to help the team.

 

As it stands, it seems to be to the detriment of both parties.

Imo...all conversations regarding his future, best position, how he can fit with the team will have taken place.

In a perfect world, you would want to use him in a set up that allows him to play at his best ability. In his most natural and comfortable position, where he's most influential.

Rather than trying to change him into something else.

[Red Skin]

On 26/07/2022 at 07:52, SecretSam said:

Firstly, I didn't listen to the interview (I live in Bucks)

But...HNM has a real bond with the fans, he is much liked. That is very much at risk here, does he know what it's like to play for us (or any club) if the fans have turned against you? Has happened with so many players in the past...

Probably been said, but you can listen to radio from any BBC region anywhere in the country and on catch up too.   Download the BBC sounds app to your phone and search the radio stations.   Or just search 'sounds of the city' in the app and you'll see 20man mug pop up.  I usually listen this way even though I live in Bristol as I usually doing something else when it's broadcast live.  

Thought 20man should get some credit for the interview.  He always seems to get NP to open up a bit more.   Obviously being and ex-pro helps but I think he is genuinely a good interviewer and his longevity in his job and living in Bristol must help too.  Well done Geoff. 

Edited July 28, 2022 by Red Skin

[Davefevs]

7 hours ago, The Constant Rabbit said:

100%

With Weimann and Martin up front - he would be almost the Semenyo role with quick run / pass to either link with Martin or put through Weimann.

I'd love to be a fly on the wall when NP and CF discuss HNM role - it's so frustrating as there is potentially one hell of a player in there.

 

I can see why HNM is torn between staying and going if this is the case.

 

Surely though @Davefevs @spudski this is exactly the conversation that NP and HNM have to have - "Where do you feel you would play best for Bristol City?"

I suspect it either hasn't happened (which would be very strange as NP seems as straight a shooter as there is) - or it has, and HNM agreed to change his role to help the team.

 

As it stands, it seems to be to the detriment of both parties.

3 hours ago, spudski said:

Imo...all conversations regarding his future, best position, how he can fit with the team will have taken place.

In a perfect world, you would want to use him in a set up that allows him to play at his best ability. In his most natural and comfortable position, where he's most influential.

Rather than trying to change him into something else.

The bigger question for me is do we play a system that gets the best out of him?

Ignoring his inconsistency, too much is made of that….anyone name a 20 year old that is consistent.  Yes he’s 21 now, but all his games so far have been as an 18, 19, 20 year old….nor am I expecting a “coming of age” birthday to change that much.  Jeez, we’ve got inconsistency across the full range of ages in our squad, why do we pick on Massengo per se?  Perhaps his range of inconsistency is wider than others?  Personally I don’t see that range, I think people jump on him too readily, but that’s about opinions.

The one thing he’s not is a DM.  Luckily we don’t play with a single DM per se, screening the back three, nor have we for a good while either.  We did play a front sweeper - I don’t think he can play that role imho

if we play 3412, can he play:

• As one of the two?  Yes, of course he can, alongside James last season he played fine, less so with Williams, and he even had a couple of good games with Scott.  With Williams, perhaps both lacking a bit of positional discipline to dovetail well?
• As the one “Weimann”?  Yes, he proved it v QPR (a)

If we were to go 3421, ala Coventry last season, the “box”:

• you could add him into one of those two in behind a striker - as per the post above, his pressing wound be an asset

I could go on about how he’d play in a back four system, but I think you’d get the best out of him in an inverted “Brownhill” role, like he played at Cardiff (a) last season.  We have t really played a diamond in his time here, which was what he grew up playing.

I guess in summary, he can play multiple roles.  He’s a good player.  Ignoring the contract situation, if he plays he needs to take his chance.  Is there much if a difference in performance levels of 20 year old Massengo (as above we have t seen him as a 21 year old yet) than 21, 22, 23 year old Bobby Reid, of which some of which was at Lg1 level?  It was the season before his position switch (so when he was 22 and 23) that we started to see a player who might actually break though.  God, I didn’t expect it to be such a breakthrough, but he hit 4 goals in 10 starts at the start if 16/17 playing a bit more of a freer role, linking with Kodjia well.

Ah well, 5 and a bit weeks to see if this drags on any longer than it has already.

[spudski]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

The bigger question for me is do we play a system that gets the best out of him?

Ignoring his inconsistency, too much is made of that….anyone name a 20 year old that is consistent.  Yes he’s 21 now, but all his games so far have been as an 18, 19, 20 year old….nor am I expecting a “coming of age” birthday to change that much.  Jeez, we’ve got inconsistency across the full range of ages in our squad, why do we pick on Massengo per se?  Perhaps his range of inconsistency is wider than others?  Personally I don’t see that range, I think people jump on him too readily, but that’s about opinions.

The one thing he’s not is a DM.  Luckily we don’t play with a single DM per se, screening the back three, nor have we for a good while either.  We did play a front sweeper - I don’t think he can play that role imho

if we play 3412, can he play:

• As one of the two?  Yes, of course he can, alongside James last season he played fine, less so with Williams, and he even had a couple of good games with Scott.  With Williams, perhaps both lacking a bit of positional discipline to dovetail well?
• As the one “Weimann”?  Yes, he proved it v QPR (a)

If we were to go 3421, ala Coventry last season, the “box”:

• you could add him into one of those two in behind a striker - as per the post above, his pressing wound be an asset

I could go on about how he’d play in a back four system, but I think you’d get the best out of him in an inverted “Brownhill” role, like he played at Cardiff (a) last season.  We have t really played a diamond in his time here, which was what he grew up playing.

I guess in summary, he can play multiple roles.  He’s a good player.  Ignoring the contract situation, if he plays he needs to take his chance.  Is there much if a difference in performance levels of 20 year old Massengo (as above we have t seen him as a 21 year old yet) than 21, 22, 23 year old Bobby Reid, of which some of which was at Lg1 level?  It was the season before his position switch (so when he was 22 and 23) that we started to see a player who might actually break though.  God, I didn’t expect it to be such a breakthrough, but he hit 4 goals in 10 starts at the start if 16/17 playing a bit more of a freer role, linking with Kodjia well.

Ah well, 5 and a bit weeks to see if this drags on any longer than it has already.

I agree Dave...as I said in my post.

In a perfect world, you would want to use him in a set up that allows him to play at his best ability. In his most natural and comfortable position, where he's most influential.

[Bristol Oil Services]

On 27/07/2022 at 14:35, maxjak said:

Surely Mark Ashton is the deceitful Wickham?

A proper scoundrel, great shout